Is anyone else kind of getting tired of vegans?

[Guest]

I think thats true...which is why I'm only a pain in the ass to VEGANS or people that claim to be vegans. Dave's worked with me before and knows I don't rub things in the face of the general public. I don't do it because it doesn't work for me...however I do know some successful facerubbers that have converted more people than I have.

[beforewisdom]

I think thats true...which is why I'm only a pain in the ass to VEGANS or people that claim to be vegans. Dave's worked with me before and knows I don't rub things in the face of the general public. I don't do it because it doesn't work for me...however I do know some successful facerubbers that have converted more people than I have.

 

I know a lot of vegans who sink significant amounts of their spare time into helping animals, but who have left groups and organizations because of other vegans getting in their face.

 

Existing vegans, whether or not someone else things they are vegan enough, have the same feelings as "the general public". If someone steps over the line often enough, they will walk.

 

People are more powerful when they work together.

 

I also believe that if you really are about something worthy, people will see it, and move towards it under their own power without having to present it to them in an "in your face" way.

[Guest]

I haven't pushed anyone away from a group I've been involved with...if anything I've gotten people to be a bit more outgoing and not so quiet(for some reason most of the vegans I've met are pretty introverted..even when protesting which just doesn't work). Anyhow like I said before...if your actually a vegan I'm not gonna criticize you about being vegan...even if you only sit at home.

[DaveNoisy]

This is hilarious.

 

Some people will argue 'diversity' is a good thing in 'groups', so PETA can do their stupid human tricks, and it's 'okay', or even a 'good thing'.

 

But some individual has a different type of personality, and it's all hell in a handbasket.

 

Yet that one person is getting so much less attention than a group like PETA, yet *this* is what's getting 7 pages of discussion. Hilarious!!

[Guest]

PETA has been attacked in many threads here in the past...some with more pages than this. And surely it will happen again in the future.

[VeganEssentials]

This is hilarious.

 

Some people will argue 'diversity' is a good thing in 'groups', so PETA can do their stupid human tricks, and it's 'okay', or even a 'good thing'.

 

But some individual has a different type of personality, and it's all hell in a handbasket.

 

Yet that one person is getting so much less attention than a group like PETA, yet *this* is what's getting 7 pages of discussion. Hilarious!!

 

Ugh. Please, Dave, promise me that this won't turn into one more anti-PETA diatribe, since you've seemed keen on bringing them up twice in one statement. I don't think I can handle too many more rants about varying opinions over which organizations do the most good Besides, it's such an old issue, and it doesn't inspire the fury over opposing viewpoints here that it usually does at the VF board, making it far less fun to argue about the same stuff over and over

[beforewisdom]

VeganEssentials;

 

I have issues with the way PETA does some things and I would never contribute money to them. That being said, like you, and many others I am tired of the anti_______ ( insert group of your choice ) rants.

 

As I have told Rob, I have noticed that most of this sort of thing is on the internet. When you go out to volunteer to help animals or spread veganism you just will not encounter endless ranting ( maybe one comment or two ) or intra vegan bashing.

 

The arm chair activists of the web boards who spend an hour a week volunteering and 6 trash talking other vegans on the web will never go away. If you swore off the internet today and came back 5 years from now you will find PETA bashing or similar threads on the vegan web boards. Probably the same people will be doing it and even making the same points.

 

They will not change, neither will the big orgs.

 

The thing to do, if it is feeling old, is to just stay away from the threads of web board vegans and focus on the people who turn out in the real world to help you get things done.

 

The whiners just do not show up in real life to exchange their view. Getting away from threads on the internet or entire vegan internet forums will make the aggravation of these things instantly vanish.

[Richard]

I don't think it's as simple as saying that these disagreements don't exist, because they generally only happen online. They exist online for a reason, which is that it's easier to talk about this kind of thing online, and you're less likely to be in an awkward social situation as a result. If you tried to have the same kind of debate with someone about their core beliefs, face-to-face, it could get ugly pretty quick. Online there isn't the same problem, and in my opinion that's why it happens online. Face-to-face, people don't want to bring it up - but that doesn't mean they still don't have the same opinions, they just don't want to get into an argument generally.

[runner]

think the problem is that you put people in a box and compare it with all people outside the box..

 

if you would label everybody you would not like any off the boxes..

 

steritipical people can be pretty ... borring

 

I don't like football supporters/ tourists/,... but I'm one myself ..

Edited January 4, 2008 by runner

[beforewisdom]

I don't think it's as simple as saying that these disagreements don't exist, because they generally only happen online. They exist online for a reason, which is that it's easier to talk about this kind of thing online, and you're less likely to be in an awkward social situation as a result. If you tried to have the same kind of debate with someone about their core beliefs, face-to-face, it could get ugly pretty quick. Online there isn't the same problem, and in my opinion that's why it happens online. Face-to-face, people don't want to bring it up - but that doesn't mean they still don't have the same opinions, they just don't want to get into an argument generally.

 

Exactly all of my points.

 

Robert and others have gotten similarly dragged down by the cribbing. It is all on the internet. It never amounts to tangible change for the animals in the real world. It is just aggravation that can easily made to dissappear from your life by choosing to read something else.

 

If you don't see these disputes as doing anything valuable for you, all you need to do to get away from them is to choose to read something else.

 

The aggravation instantly goes away.

[DaveNoisy]

I agree that 'anti-XXX' rants aren't generally useful, but i think there's a difference between an irrational hatred of something ("PETA is DUMB"), and a critique or criticism of the activities of a group.

 

In the US especially, PETA is synonymous with 'animal rights'. What really sucks is that the things they commonly do (killing animals, being sexist, stupid human stunts, etc) are also now synonymous with 'animal rights' (yet have nothing to do with it).

 

As someone who takes AR seriously, and views it as a serious social justice movement, worthy of public consideration and respect, i fail to see how PETA has achieved this, and whether they ever do.

 

In the recent HBO documentary, Ingrid Newkirk admits that they're about the *media*. That's their focus. The actual message is clearly a secondary thought in their activities. (And they rarely even think about that message.)

 

Considering they're 'the' name in AR in these parts, doesn't that mean we need to consider what the repercussions are? How they're defining AR?

 

It's extremely naive to say 'just ignore them', you CAN'T.

 

I think AR and veganism is hugely important, and it kills me to see PETA turning it into a way to do publicity stunts.

 

Secondly, doubtless many are either unaware of the things PETA does, or are genuinely troubled by them. For the former, shouldn't they be informed? For the latter, how do these people feel when their opinions are rarely/never voiced? Do they feel like they have legitimate concerns if most of the chatter is in favor of PETA's activities?

 

Some talk about how good 'diversity' is, yet critical thought and progressive attitudes are frequently villainized. Aren't they a part of 'diversity'? Or a *requirement*?

 

I'm sick of speaking against PETA's activities as well, but it's like they're now an 'old man', and all the racist and sexist thoughts and comments are tolerated, 'just because'. That's wrong folks. And we're supposed to be about doing 'right'.

 

AR and veganism are not taken seriously in the social justice and peace movements, and i think this is because of PETA. Isn't that a problem work discussing??

[_raVen_]

Dave Noisy is my hero.

 

Over and out.

[Guest]

One thing people don't see is the fact that PETA also does a lot of quiet low key things as well. Not everything they do is over the top. Unfortunately the media pays no attention to any AR group unless something they do is over the top. I've seen PETA employees hand out literature that was purely health based...no in your face tactics used at all. And I've seen some of the other stuff first hand as well. And I've seen both work. I have friends that are turned off by that stuff and I have even more friends that have converted thanks to their tactics. There's a place for everything and different people require different types of influence. Some people don't listed to what they feel are crazy antics while others don't even notice anything unless its forced on them...there's a place for everything.

[VeganEssentials]

The thing to do, if it is feeling old, is to just stay away from the threads of web board vegans and focus on the people who turn out in the real world to help you get things done.

 

I'd completely forgotten my promise to myself to steer clear of the usual negativity - I'm quite glad you refreshed my memory to do so After this one, it's lights out for me in this thread and similar things - I get a bit worked up voicing against the same things I believe are counterproductive, and it always has the same result in the end.

 

The way I've always seen it, if you don't think that a good enough job is being done, then DO A BETTER ONE instead of whining about how X or Y doesn't do things the way you want, sitting idle or doing just enough to feel good about yourself without making a real difference. If something is worth complaining about, it's worth changing from the INSIDE, rather than trying to just compel people to agree and have a circle of like-minded folk where everyone just nods in malcontented unison. NOBODY is too small to make a big difference with something that they think can be improved upon. But, somehow there's a huge proliferation of people who seem to think that it is a real vehicle for positive change in just sounding off about some issue that they have with another person/group/philosophy/etc., while there are better ways to get things done through real-world action. But, why take the hard road when the well-worn path of griping is so much easier There's an old saying, "Wish in one hand, sh*t in the other, see which one fills up first." I think there are far too many wishers out there, but I suppose that's their problem. Talk - action = zero.

 

I've eliminated the majority of negative influences in my real-world life in the form of naysayers and excuse makers, and I need to do this online as well. Y'all will find me in the lesser-heated areas of the board - I'm outta these parts.

[CollegeB]

Potter I watched most of that documentary about Ingrid Newkirk...I found it interesting.

[DaveNoisy]

One thing people don't see is the fact that PETA also does a lot of quiet low key things as well. Not everything they do is over the top.

Sure, they keep the killing of healthy cats and dogs on the down-low.

 

Unfortunately the media pays no attention to any AR group unless something they do is over the top.

Untrue. FoA has been getting amazing press the last few months in NYC, with progress banning the horse-drawn carriages, as well as the rodeo 'demonstrations' they've been having at Madison Square Gardens. We rely on intelligent discourse, and it's getting out there.

 

PETA doesn't help other serious AR groups with their tactics, if anything, by playing along with 'the game', they make it harder for serious activists to get a message out. It's also not fair that we need to 'compete' with PETA in order to be heard. They're setting the bar for that as well. And it's a really shitty bar to set.

 

There's a place for everything and different people require different types of influence.[..]...there's a place for everything.

Right - where the place for sexism?

 

Where's the place for discrimination and classism?

 

Where the place for crudeness and thoughtlessness and insensitivity?

 

You're mistaken to say 'there is a place for everything'. If there was a place for everything, we wouldn't be activists.

[DaveNoisy]

The way I've always seen it, if you don't think that a good enough job is being done, then DO A BETTER ONE

I *am*. You seem to forget that.

 

instead of whining about how X or Y doesn't do things

Gee - you phrase things in such a reasonable way.

 

Again, isn't there a difference between critique and 'whining'? Do you realize how belittling and intolerant your own words are?

 

X speaks out against Y; you refuse to recognize that there may be legitimate reasons for this, and diminish X to 'whining'. Really cool dude.

[runner]

think the peta issue is a bit different from the first post from robert.

 

would like to bring the first topic back:

 

think the problem is that you put people in a box and compare it with all people outside the box..

 

if you would label everybody you would not like any off the boxes..

 

steritipical people can be pretty ... borring

 

I don't like football supporters/ tourists/,... but I'm one myself ..

[Guest]

Maybe PETA does kill healthy dogs and cats but so does nearly every other shelter on the planet. I was against this before I worked at one. When you have 300 full pens for dogs and cats what are you supposed to do when you raid a house full of 50 sick kittens??? You have no choice. Its really terrible but there isn't much you can do about this fact. People suck and animals suffering is one of the terrible consequences to human stupidity.

 

As for your press info that press rodeos and horse drawn carriages are getting is scant at best. I'm only somewhat familiar but barely. I've only heard of it from emails I get from AR groups...nothing on major news here so I'd say they're getting nothing done on a national scale...very important work for sure but nobody that isn't vegan really cares unless they live in those areas.

As for PETA not helping other groups thats complete BS. PETA actually funds other groups that are what you'd call NORMAL. They give out so much money to other AR groups I'm surprised they have much left for themselves. Anyhow if PETA weren't around...trust me...they wouldn't care about you then either. No media cares...its not in their interest when they make more money having McDonald's commercials and don't want to ruin that. If the circus gave them tons of money they wouldn't pay attention to that either but since they don't the circus is just about the only cruel thing going on in public that the news ever pays attention too...although rarely.

As for those other problems you pointed out for PETA yes maybe those are flaws...but they are all flaws in every part of society in the US. They want to help animals...thats what they do. Some people want to help people addicted to alcohol...they do that but leave out other things since thats not their goal. As for the idea of there not being place for activists in the case of there being a place for everything thats wrong. There's a place for activists...as there is a place for people who don't like them.

[DV]

I'm not getting tired of vegans but I am getting tired of this thread. It appears to have served its original purpose. Could it be closed?

[runner]

I'm not getting tired of vegans but I am getting tired of this thread. It appears to have served its original purpose. Could it be closed?

 

good point agree

[robert]

Yeah, I was talking with someone last night about this thread. They asked why I haven't posted anymore since the beginning and I replied by saying, "Because I've said everything that I wanted to say."

 

There isn't any point in running around in circles. I was tired of "vegans" turning people away from veganism based on their actions. I'm still tired of it. This doesn't mean I dislike vegans, or anything like that. I feel that we should make veganism desirable and appealing to others, rather than coming across like it is a lifestyle that is difficult to maintain.

 

We'll close this one up.

 

Thanks for your input.