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Is anyone else kind of getting tired of vegans?


robert
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The problem is that we don't have a word for a thoughtful plant eater.

Not long ago, a vegan friend of mine was introducing me to someone and described me as "cruelty-free" because I strive to avoid consumption of "sweatshop" produced goods, in addition to adhering to a "vegan" diet.

 

I'm not sure "cruelty-free" is the term I would prefer... Maybe "conscious consumer"???

 

I think if anyone is trying to find a "new term" to describe lifestyles such as ours, it should take into account the fact that this is something we strive towards. Not something we are already... Like the term "vegan"...none of us can claim that we don't cause some kind of animal suffering in some way (as others have pointed out).

 

Ultimately, I think labeling our lifestyle may be counterproductive, because as soon as you create a label, someone will say "you're not really this and I am...".

 

If asked to describe my decisions as a consumer, I usually say that "I try my best to take the repercussions of my actions into account whenever I buy a product".

 

Maybe we each need our own terminology to describe what we strive towards?

 

-Chris

 

Edit: Some of this now seems redundant now, as Jessifly covered some of this while I was composing my post...

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heh, just a random thought since you mentioned creating a new word to define a class of people..

what about like some commandments, humanity code of conduct, or something.. could be just experimental and non-serious(like unofficial)..

 

example:

 

All animals are not created equal, yet are considered equal, sharing the same and equal rights for freedom and liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

 

Life of one form are not to be consumed if other less complicated lifeforms can be sacrificed instead.

 

i dunno.

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Robert,

As long as we stay positive we have all the rational arguments on our side. The environmental impact on meat eating is irrefutable. The health benefits of a whole food plant based diet is irrefutable. Less animals dying and living in horrific conditions is a fact.

 

Two things can spoil this:

1. Us turning negative and being stuck up a$$holes. Noone wants to live a way that will obviously be making them as miserable and bitter.

2. Being logically contradictory. I've talked about this in the previous posts in this thread. It is rediculous to say that we care about animals and then destroy the environment by not avoiding cotton (and work in favour of hemp) and palm kernel oil. People will and do call us on these contradictions all the time, as we all know.

 

Yeah, that is what I've been working towards. As we recall all of my new style of threads these days they are about being positive and not bashing other vegans, not being police-like to the point that others don't want to be vegan or have anything to do with the movement, and to be positive role models.

 

That is really I'll I'm looking for from a community of like-minded people. That's it. Maybe throw in motivation to create positive change too.

 

Compassion, "more" Sustainability, and overall wellness our on our side. We just need to adequately show that to an audience in a positive way.

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Well, I don't really get it, but then I haven't read the vegan bashing thread and I don't know any other vegans so...

 

A lot of people over here have a bad idea about veganism, though about everyone I've ever met changes their mind pretty quickly.

 

To me veganism means you don't use any animal products, and that you care about the environment.

I don't see any problems with that.

Sure, some vegans might not care about environmental issues but even then, it would be very hard to have the same impact on the environment as someone that eats their meat and drink their milk everyday.

A dairy cow for instance pollutes 4.5times as much as a car. If 15million people don't eat meat for 3 days a week it has the same impact as taking 3million cars of the road!

 

The dutch have come up with an answer to Al Gore's documentary. It's called "Meat the truth" and it's about the impact of animal products on the enviroment, which as most probably know has the biggest.

 

I also tried a test on the website of Canvas(Belgian equivalent of the BBC), it's to calculate you environmental footprint. Average European was like 5.8, American 9.5, African 1.1. My score was around 2.5, I'm sure I can get it down more, and I will, but thats a huge difference to most people.

 

Offence, I agree with most of what you are saying. But it's a bit contradicting to talk about cotton and palm kernel oil but you do use airplanes.

I'm not saying you should not at all, I'm just pointing out that

People will and do call us on these contradictions all the time, as we all know.

 

I think everyone should do what they can to have less impact on the environment, the first logic thing to me seems start cutting out what is the biggest problem. If you don't you are sort of "mopping with the tap running" (dutch expression) imho.

I'm pretty sure a vegan that drives a hummer, uses cotton and palm kernel oil is still polluting less than most people. Not saying people should do that, but if you gonna bash them you should bash people that eat meat more.....

 

I don't bash anyone, or I don't intend to anyway. I just try to look at the facts.

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I think that it's understandable that many vegans are frustrated, angry and have a negative attutide towards the world in general, and towards non-vegans. But having said that, I think it is beneficial to get over that, and realise that whilst it is justifiable to be that way, it isn't actually helpful - in my opinion. I work hard on keeping cool these days, with only a few slip ups. I get on a lot better with non-vegans now than I used to, because I used to hammer people pretty bad. Now I just explain stuff if it comes up, and it's only the most insecure people who get puffed up and try to argue with me now.

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Yeah, I get it.

 

I don't hang around with vegans all that much, even though I live near a lot of them. We don't have much else in common other than our "vegan" beliefs. I've had one or two forum members in my home as a guest and will now think twice about it in the future. I don't need anyone judging me because I have an old wool/silk rug that I purchased before I starting "trying my best to live a more compassionate life." Who knows what else about my lifestyle is up for scrutiny?

 

But there are some of you on this forum that I would hang with, even if you do refer to yourself as vegan.

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Just act in a positive way and be a role model that inspires others to want to live your type of lifestyle and we'll be alright.

 

Robert, you are a role model, and have had a big part in creating your community, both here online, and in Portland. Yet those that would follow your example are bickering over the very thing your modeling. That must be very frustrating, but it's nothing you can control, so don't let it get you down. Do what you're gonna do, let the chips fall where they may, and stay above the fray.

And maybe consider doing some yoga

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Robert, do you think it's just Oregon maybe? I could see how Oregon vegans might be extreme on the "reject-everything-about-mainstream-society" front.

 

I myself am not anti-America or anti-West, on the whole. I do think we need to re-emphasize the importance of the environment, plurality, separation of church and state, power of Congress to withhold war funding, etc.

 

But while America and Western culture is not perfect, compared to the extremes of corruption and nonexistent human rights in many countries, there is much that is exceptional and valuable about American values, government, and society. We that live here or in most of the West are very, very fortunate on the whole, compared to many of the world's less-advantaged people.

 

I think it's possible to be Vegan, progressive on certain other issues, but still recognize the worth of many of the established values and customs of our Western Culture.

Edited by joelbct
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It's just a word. The more important issue is that anyone who makes a change to a more plant-based diet is doing well and that should be encouraged.

 

I don't think labels do any good. Labels divide people, division is no good. Everyone should be encouraged to make a change towards a plant-based diet if they desire to. Vegans shouldn't be some exclusive group.

 

Exclusion separates vegans from the goal that vegans attempt to achieve.

 

I think a lot of people just need to call themselves something.

 

At the same time, I recognize that a non-vegan who calls themselves vegan isn't one. I just don't see the harm if that person desires to call themselves a vegan, how important is a word? What's important is the impact their changes will have.

 

I agree with you Zack. I don't even call myself Vegan for that very reason. When people ask me about why I eat the way I do or whatever I just tell them I don't consume animals or animal by-products and why.

 

But at the same time, I believe that everyone has their place in this world. Robert is a leader, an activist so to speak. But he's got it in him. I on the other hand don't. I have two small children and the activist's lifestyle just doesn't jive with where I'm at in my life. So I just do the best I can by being as compassionate to the Earth and it's beings as I can.

 

I don't know if I'm making any sense, but I just believe everyone has their place in the world, whether it be a school teacher, fire fighter, spiritual leader, animal rights activist or whatever. And some are followers, like me.

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I just need a word to tell the Thai dude when I get hungry...

Any takers?

 

that is exactly the only time when I use the term "vegan" when I am trying to tell people all the tiings I dont want in my food. It doesnt matter they are chinese anyway and cant understand me. anyway.

 

When I feed people I never mention the fact that there isnt any animal products in the food. they just eat it and like it.

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The only Vegans that I know are from this board and some clients that have found me on the internet.

 

When I tell people I'm Vegan, I usually am met with lots of jokes (at least twice a week, it's the "if god wanted us to be vegan, he wouldn't have invented meat joke" or something like that... man omnis need some new material ) or "Wow, you look too healthy to be a Vegan".

 

If I didn't come at these people with kid gloves nobody would ever be able to relate to me. I loved VeganDudes post about if 15 million people gave up meat 3 x week it would be like taking 3 million cars off the road. THAT is the kind of message I try to send to people in my daily life.

 

I hear some of these stories like DV just told (a Vegan judging her by an old wool rug), and I just shake my head and wonder how I'd handle these kinds of situations. I guess I would start to get sick of Vegans too if I had to deal with the kind of judgement that Robert and others have been faced with. Here I've been secretly jealous about all of you who get to live in Portland and be surrounded by all these Vegan options and Vegan people, but I'm starting to see the flip side of that.

 

Tolerance isn't an option in my world, it's an absolute requirement. This post is actually making me see that being surrounded by non-Vegans actually gives me more options than I originally thought. hmm... interesting.

 

As far as the word "Vegan", I just think most omnis BARELY know what the word means in the first place. If you try to create a different word or description at this stage of the game (before enough people are on board), it could start to get even more confusing for Non-Vegans that are considering a different lifestyle.

 

Oh, and one more thing, when confronted with people who are unsure about a Vegan lifestyle and are curious in knowing what it's about... remember this... There's a secret that a lot of women know about men. Alot of women know that if you tell a man he needs to do something, he'll usually do the opposite or dig his heels in even harder. If you learn to approach him in a non-threatening manner, he'll usually do it on his own. If you manage to find a way to have him believe it was his idea all along, he'll do it every time .... something to think about

 

hee, hee

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I just WISH that vegetarian still meant that the person eats plants. NOW vegetarian = dairy, eggs, and non-meat animal products --- How the hell did that happen?

products in supermarkets in Sweden labeled only "vegetarian" should be vegan according to some law. Soy hotdogs with eggs and shit is labeled as "lacto-ovo vegetarian"...if that's any comfort

 

personally i kind of hate most vegans i meet. they give me shit for working out and caring about my looks and the fact that i support PETA while they're walking around in their leather shoes and eating sourcream crisps when they are hangover. But i'm still proud to call myself vegan.

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I hear some of these stories like DV just told (a Vegan judging her by an old wool rug), and I just shake my head and wonder how I'd handle these kinds of situations. I guess I would start to get sick of Vegans too if I had to deal with the kind of judgement that Robert and others have been faced with. Here I've been secretly jealous about all of you who get to live in Portland and be surrounded by all these Vegan options and Vegan people, but I'm starting to see the flip side of that.

 

Do people actually DO that?? I can't imagine why anyone would care if a vegan is using up something that's pregan. I guess the argument might be that it reinforces the idea that animals can/should be used, but in my experience the only people who've tried to "vegan police" me on that sort of thing are omnivores who are trying to discredit me, not other vegans.

 

As much as I agree that vegan has to mean something, I personally give others quite a bit of leeway as far as understanding that not everyone has the exact same life circumstances as I do and maybe can't make the same choices. Like, I know vegans who use non-vegan beauty products, as far as I can tell because the vegan alternatives are 2-3 times as expensive. Who am I to judge if someone can't afford $75 a month instead of $25 a month? If their heart is there, but circumstances make it a lot harder for them, I'm not going to try and take their badge.

 

I hate to see things degenerating into squabbling. The most important thing is to reach people with a positive vegan message, and to try and create a more vegan world. I know that's what I'd rather spend my time on.

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The most important thing is to reach people with a positive vegan message, and to try and create a more vegan world. I know that's what I'd rather spend my time on.

 

That's the important thing for you, and a commendable thing it is. For me, it's not important to me if I reach anybody else with a vegan message. If they ask, sure I'll tell, and I'm happy to live as an example, but otherwise I just keep on keepin' on doing my own thing.

 

Being vegan does not automatically make one an activist, though many vegans and omnis often think it does (not accusing you of this, just making the point).

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That's the important thing for you, and a commendable thing it is. For me, it's not important to me if I reach anybody else with a vegan message. If they ask, sure I'll tell, and I'm happy to live as an example, but otherwise I just keep on keepin' on doing my own thing.

 

Being vegan does not automatically make one an activist, though many vegans and omnis often think it does (not accusing you of this, just making the point).

 

A friend of mine is doing her graduate work on this very topic (if veganism itself = being an activist.)

 

I didn't mean to imply that all vegans need to be doing active activism (although a part of me wishes they would ), just that it's a better way to spend our energy than bickering.

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I've been saying this for a few weeks now. I'm kind of getting tired of vegans.

 

I know how you feel Robert. There is a vegan community in my area, though it is much smaller than the one in Oregon.

 

Staying away from vegans online helps.

 

We have a local mailing list where I live. 85% of its content is hair splitting and vicious bickering. I was starting to feel like you, then I unsubscribed from the list. Months later I feel better about everyone again.

 

People get vicious or persnickety online in a way they will not when you are with them in person. Additionally, people who will actually turn out in person to do things tend to be a bit nicer than people who hide online.

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I've been saying this for a few weeks now. I'm kind of getting tired of vegans.

 

The kind of things you are feeling aggravation about can be found in any group that is about anything off of the beaten path and out of the mainstream.

 

I've heard born again Christians, republicans, etc ... say similar things about their communities as vegans do about theirs.

 

It isn't veganism, it is human nature.

 

It is more comfortable to stay in the mainstream, so if someone joins something outside of the mainstream they have to have a powerful reason.

 

For some, it is a chance to fit in where they don't fit in with the mainstream. For others it is about a genuine motivation to the cause.

 

Bottom line, you do something outside of the mainstream, doesn't matter what it is, you will meet some of the worst people in your life and some of the best.

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Hey Robert,

I'm noticing a bit of a trend with some of your posts, with this one and the vegan bashing thread and it is telling me to remind you of The "30 is a magic number" and some of the other discussions Offense and I had with you during Vegan Vacation.

You have done so much for Promoting Veganism in a postive and healthy way, so you are bound to get critics etc and come up against negative people. People often resent success and feel jealous when some one is doing more and achieving more than they are.

At the end of the day, if I have learnt one thing in the last year it is that, Just because someone has the same beliefs as you, it doesn't mean you will get along or they will like you or help you. Sometimes at the end of the day, all you have in common is that believe. If someone doesn't like me because of my personality, or how I do things etc, then it is there loss, because there will be plenty of people out there that want to help out or be a friend.

Anyway, keep up all that you are doing robert, and remember that you are admired all over the world. If you end up distancing yourself from a few groups or individuals then so be it.

If you need anyone sorted out, let me know, Sydneyvegan has got your back...

Chris

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I've heard born again Christians, republicans, etc ... say similar things about their communities as vegans do about theirs.

It isn't veganism, it is human nature.

 

Absolutely true. I'm on two mailing lists and a message board for the ultramarathon community. If someone read the stuff that's said in those discussions, they would think all ultrarunners are tightly wound, mean-spirited, total asshats. In real life, I've never met a more relaxed, supportive, or friendly community.

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You have done so much for Promoting Veganism in a postive and healthy way, so you are bound to get critics etc and come up against negative people. People often resent success and feel jealous when some one is doing more and achieving more than they are.

 

I think there are other reasons, but I think the important lesson is what you stated......no matter what you do, as you long as you are doing something some people will praise you and you will catch shit from other people.

 

It is much easier to talk than to do.

 

People who don't go out and do things are out of touch with what is easy, hard, realistically possible, etc... It is very easy for them to set very high standards to judge what other people actually do because of that. Ideas and talk are cheaper than action.

 

I try to hear everyone's opinion at least once so I can keep learning new things, but if it moves into belly aching I try to pay attention only to people who are doing or who arre trying

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I don't know if your speaking about me beforewisdom but it seems like you are which is fine sinc everyone loves doing this to me. I actually do quite a bit. I've done a few KFC demos, and two fur demos since I've been back and I've got 3 vegan converts under my belt...as well as two friends I got to go ovo-lacto for now(vegan soon I hope). I'm also working about 35hours a week(two jobs kinda) and training over 20hrs a week so I'm not exactly all talk. Oh...plus I'm a board member of a national organization for vegan athletes...this all excludes the small business I own. I normally don't write about these things in my blog or journal because I wouldn't think people here would care because I would rather assume most would assume I'm not a lazy ass all talk vegan.

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Oh, and one more thing, when confronted with people who are unsure about a Vegan lifestyle and are curious in knowing what it's about... remember this... There's a secret that a lot of women know about men. Alot of women know that if you tell a man he needs to do something, he'll usually do the opposite or dig his heels in even harder. If you learn to approach him in a non-threatening manner, he'll usually do it on his own. If you manage to find a way to have him believe it was his idea all along, he'll do it every time .... something to think about

 

hee, hee

 

That's great! And very true.

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I don't know if your speaking about me beforewisdom

 

Its not about you.

 

I'm telling Robert what I have seen from the D.C. Metro Area vegan community as related to the local list I was on and the people I have met doing positive volunteering work. I guessed that the same patterns here are what happened to Robert in his community in Oregon. People who do things will get gossiped about and attacked by people who don't.

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