offense74 Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 A person at my workplace have well developed heart disease. She's on 4 blood pressure medicines, among a lot of others. You all know the story, sedentary with a greasy, sweet and processed diet.After work one day, after a glass of wine or two she started to talk to me about it and after awhile she looked me in the eyes and told me "I don't want to die" and asked me to set up a diet for her.So, I put up a diet for her and bring her Eat to Live to read. She seems to be on the boat and her son (who've had cancer) is going to do it with her. I tell her that if her doctor asks her she should just tell him that she eats more fruits and veggies and that she should under no circumstances tell him that she only eats plants since that is apparently crazy according to modern medicine. After christmas I go ask her how everything is going and she tells me that "No we had to abort that, the doctor said it was too risky". She actually brought him the book and showed him. Dr. Asshole didn't approve but instead said that "We have to fix you first".I got pissed off to say the least. I told her that Dr. Asshole or any of his colleges that are using his approach have never "fixed" or "cured" heart disease. I also told her to have him call me so I could explain it to him.In my eyes he sent her home with a bag of drugs and a few weekly appointments to comfort her in her ever accelerating road to death. Dr. Assholes plan is to increase the drugs, as he has always done. It has never worked before and it will not work this time. I wonder at which this time this "chronic" disease, according to him, will be "fixed" so that I and other who actually knows stuff can help her. Doctors are usually recognized as gods to people and they will do anything they say. When it comes to one "disease" (cardio vascular) most (99,9%) of them will remain ignorant assholes. To come in to a drug doctors office with Eat to Live or any of the books like it, where one of his colleagues actually explains how he cures heart disease and proves it by good science is the same thing as if someone came in to the department of mechanics at the university with a perpetuum mobile and no one wanted to see it or listen. Are there any academics that have so little faith in the scientific method as cardiologists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CollegeB Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 I get the sense from previous discussions that doctors here for the most part are similar. Though there has been more institutional support for a plant based diet very recently. Is there an european medical association that okays a plant based diet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontxhide Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 Damn, that pulled at my heart strings man. Hopefully she realizes that the way to health is through eating better and not listening to what drug doctors say. Keep us informed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Wow...I guess your doctors are just as stupid as ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 I know the feeling Offense, I'm experiencing it with both my parents.Both will do whatever surgery or take whatever drug they are told.Diet has nothing to do with these "diseases" as far as they are concerned They want the doctor to "fix" them.I hope they realize that their doctor can't fix them before it's too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 That is so frustrating . Why only focus on the symptoms when you can treat the cause? I thought there would be more emphasis on preventive medicine in countries with socialized medicine. Here in the US doctors push meds all the time, but I just figured it would be different in a country where healthcare isn't such a profit-driven industry. I work as a speech pathologist at a rehab hospital, and most of our patients have had strokes. I don't understand why there isn't more emphasis on preventive healthcare. So many people who come to us are on 10 or more medications, but they are still sedentary and they are still putting crap into their bodies. I think most people just consider that to be the norm, and it doesn't occur to them to really change things. I wish there was more widespread education re: the importance of diet and exercise by doctors and dieticians. For example, today I had a patient complain to me that she was served bacon, eggs, biscuits and gravy for breakfast, and that she is worried about her high cholesterol. Why are they even serving that crap in a hospital? I told the dietician about the patient's concerns and she said she would check to see if they could substitute "low-fat" gravy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 but I just figured it would be different in a country where healthcare isn't such a profit-driven industry. Why would it be different, drug companies are drug companies anywhere you go. If they're not selling drugs, there's no profit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Sorry to hear that Magnuss. It's sad to see doctors doing things like this. There's no profit if nobody is sick. Some people just won't change. Can't let it get to you too much. I experienced the same thing with my doctors, I've pretty much stopped going except for the regular bloodtest. Until more options come around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beforewisdom Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 I know where you are coming from Offense. I've had the many similar experiences. The scientific method, the institution of science, and the existing body of research are not the problem. Doctors Furnham, Barnard, Esselstyn, McDougal, and Ornish are all part of the scientific establishment. They know what they know because Nathan Pritikin started the ball rolling with post WWII research in the early 50s that looked at those Northern Europeans who got cured of many degenerative diseases when the war cut them off from most of their high fat animal based diet. Those medical doctors, you, and I know about these things which validate vegan diets from the scientific method and the institution of science. I wanted to make that clear because there is a trend among vegans to distrust science, distrust what has been learned and to make up their own nutritional metaphysics laboring under the paranoia that they are always being lied to. The problem in your situation is that medical doctors do not recieve any nutritional education. They don't know how to evaluate books like Furnhams and they have never learned to respect the potential of nutrition. In my country, the U.S., if a doctor is put on trial s/he can lose their lisence, their career, and go to jail if a patient is hurt as a result of them giving treatments that are standard treatments in the medical community. These problems will eventually change as more people like you read books that based on good science and as more people like you take the risk in introducing these books to people around. It is just going to take time and repetition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 I figured it would be a bit different in a lot of Europe where healthcare is free. I would think the doctors get the same pay no matter what...and only the drug companies would care what the doctors did but not the hospitals. After all if its real social medicine there is not real profit...its all loss(broken even only with taxes) just like public schools in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Quite honestly, if a doctor is to put his/her liability risk behind any particular treatment then it better have some studies to back it up. The plant-based diet doesn't have enough studies as yet to back it up. I would have said something similar as that doctor if faced with the risk of a malpractice suit. I don't expect anyone who doesn't work under a liability risk to understand the implications of what I'm saying - because you cannot understand it unless you are in the medical field and work with liability and licensing issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Thing is there aren't really studies saying a meaty diet is good for you either...its just accepted and done by everyone to the point that it isn't really studied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offense74 Posted January 10, 2008 Author Share Posted January 10, 2008 Quite honestly, if a doctor is to put his/her liability risk behind any particular treatment then it better have some studies to back it up. The plant-based diet doesn't have enough studies as yet to back it up. I would have said something similar as that doctor if faced with the risk of a malpractice suit. I don't expect anyone who doesn't work under a liability risk to understand the implications of what I'm saying - because you cannot understand it unless you are in the medical field and work with liability and licensing issues.I understand that. It's safer to go with that route since it is what everybody else is doing. But it seems to me that this MD actually believes that he is curing cardio vascular disease with drugs just like you cure bacterial invasions in the body with antibiotics. Surely, it should be common knowledge among doctors that this is not the case since over 50% of everyone in your and my country will die of this "disease". It can't get any clearer than that. You probably know more about decreased or increased mortality in the specific drugs that people take, but as I understand it doesn't look very good. It seems to me that nutrition would have less of the bad side effects that drugs apparently have. Also, where is the science behind the current dietary guidelines? Why is there an upper limit of fruits and veggies intake? Are there any valid, strong science supporting it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veggieprincess Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 A person at my workplace have well developed heart disease. She's on 4 blood pressure medicines, among a lot of others. You all know the story, sedentary with a greasy, sweet and processed diet.After work one day, after a glass of wine or two she started to talk to me about it and after awhile she looked me in the eyes and told me "I don't want to die" and asked me to set up a diet for her.So, I put up a diet for her and bring her Eat to Live to read. She seems to be on the boat and her son (who've had cancer) is going to do it with her. I tell her that if her doctor asks her she should just tell him that she eats more fruits and veggies and that she should under no circumstances tell him that she only eats plants since that is apparently crazy according to modern medicine. After christmas I go ask her how everything is going and she tells me that "No we had to abort that, the doctor said it was too risky". She actually brought him the book and showed him. Dr. Asshole didn't approve but instead said that "We have to fix you first". I got pissed off to say the least. I told her that Dr. Asshole or any of his colleges that are using his approach have never "fixed" or "cured" heart disease. I also told her to have him call me so I could explain it to him.In my eyes he sent her home with a bag of drugs and a few weekly appointments to comfort her in her ever accelerating road to death. Dr. Assholes plan is to increase the drugs, as he has always done. It has never worked before and it will not work this time. I wonder at which this time this "chronic" disease, according to him, will be "fixed" so that I and other who actually knows stuff can help her. Doctors are usually recognized as gods to people and they will do anything they say. When it comes to one "disease" (cardio vascular) most (99,9%) of them will remain ignorant assholes. To come in to a drug doctors office with Eat to Live or any of the books like it, where one of his colleagues actually explains how he cures heart disease and proves it by good science is the same thing as if someone came in to the department of mechanics at the university with a perpetuum mobile and no one wanted to see it or listen. Are there any academics that have so little faith in the scientific method as cardiologists? ugh!!! I have nothing else to offer except to say, I feel your frustration offense. This situation would be very disheartening to me too!! Take the high road and hope that when she isn't feeling any better, she'll head your advice and give it a chance again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flanders77 Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 @DV and Magnus (and of course the others involved )I am very sorry to hear about your college and at the same time happy that you tried to help her. There is a good chance (although there are not "enough studies", DV) that a well-planned vegan diet will help her body to improve its condition. There is no chance for that if the woman keeps taking the drugs doctor "STUPID ASSHOLE" gives her. Hiding behind "I am work under a liability risk" does not mean you have to be ignorant and behave like a money-hungry lemming following dietary guidelines which are not worth the paper they are written on.My thoughts are with that ill woman and all the other ill humans who will die to early because of their bad lifestyle. We who know better (some at least...) have to deal with the fact we cannot help everyone - not even our closest family members and friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 After christmas I go ask her how everything is going and she tells me that "No we had to abort that, the doctor said it was too risky". She actually brought him the book and showed him. Dr. Asshole didn't approve but instead said that "We have to fix you first". If her car needed extensive repairs all the time because the kind of fuel she put in it was bad and was destroying her car, I'm sure her mechanic would tell her she needed to fix her car first before trying a different kind of gas. It's steady income for the guy doing the repairs. Or in her case, the guy who's charging for the office visits and medical testing. And eventually for heart surgery and a hospital stay, if Doc plays his cards right... right? Offense, I feel your frustration. I've got a few ill friends that just can't accept that a change of diet will probably improve their health and there's nothing I can do but wait and see if they'll open their minds someday. Hopefully you've impressed upon her enough that she'll at least cut back on the crap food, even if her doctor has convinced her not to give it up completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offense74 Posted January 10, 2008 Author Share Posted January 10, 2008 Thanks everybody for your support! I know many of you are dealing with the same type of problems. In Sweden we have a sort of board of directors that delivers guidelines for medical care in Sweden called "Socialstyrelsen". They're supposed to follow science and give directions from that. They are probably as confused as everybody else. Corruption is not as big of an issue in Sweden as it is in the US so this system tend to work for other things as well as most medical issues. Antibiotics, for example, is not used to the same extent here as in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beforewisdom Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Quite honestly, if a doctor is to put his/her liability risk behind any particular treatment then it better have some studies to back it up. The plant-based diet doesn't have enough studies as yet to back it up. I would have said something similar as that doctor if faced with the risk of a malpractice suit. I don't expect anyone who doesn't work under a liability risk to understand the implications of what I'm saying - because you cannot understand it unless you are in the medical field and work with liability and licensing issues. What about giving the standard treatment to cover your ass while prescribing a new diet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericajones80 Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Yeah malpractice lawsuits are really, really abused here in the states IMO. People think that doctors are miracle workers, and when they don't make them perfect again they get sued. A little off topic, but unfortunately it's going to continue until there is loads and loads more scientific evidence of the benefit of plant based diet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Sometimes doctors do deserve lawsuits though...they can really be careless sometimes. My mother knows someone who had a sponge left in her abdomen after surgery which is just inexcusable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishe Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 The whole situation is frustrating for sure. All of us here certainly feel we know the best thing for this woman is to follow a diet such as Joel Furman's Eat to Live. But I don't feel right wanting a lawsuit against the doctors. It's not as if they are "out to get her." They think they are doing the best thing for her. They are simply not educated. For any human, it's naive to think that they will immediately change their whole diet views based on only one first hand testimonial and a book they have never heard of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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