Jump to content

Vegan Strip Club opens in Portland tonight


robert
 Share

Recommended Posts

The book sounds like a real snooze fest.

 

It's not a star wars novel it's not meant to be a roller coaster ride. It is meant to question status quo thinking.

 

I'm not surprised to see men use their male privledge poo-poo Carol Adams it may sound boring to you but your not exactly the victim of patriarchy are you?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 152
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I want to start out by saying that I'm not a huge fan of strip clubs. I've been to one once or twice when a group of friends was going (I do live in Portland, after all, where it seems there's a strip club on every other corner), but that's about it.

 

But I wanted to jump in and offer a differing point of view to what seems to be a knee-jerk reaction that strip clubs are automatically bad.

 

Yes, some strip clubs are bad, and exploit the women that work there. But saying that all strip clubs are bad because some are bad is kind of like saying that all shoes are bad because some shoes exploit children in the making of them. Just because some companies abuse children to make shoes doesn't mean you should never wear shoes, it just means you shouldn't wear shoes from those companies.

 

The allegation of misogyny is quite common, but I find this allegation hypocritical. It is misogynistic to associate any expression of female sexuality as exploitative. It is misogynistic to suggest that grown women shouldn't be allowed the opportunity to decide they want to dance to make money. It is misogynistic to suggest that all strippers are being exploited, because this implies that they're incapable of making their own decisions.

 

Many strip clubs are run by very caring, professional people. Many strippers are normal, intelligent women who would never let themselves be exploited. They own their sexuality, and they're in control when they're dancing. Just because it is not YOUR thing, what right do you have to make blanket statements about how those women are expressing themselves and making decisions?

 

If you don't like strip clubs, don't go to them. But please don't lump all strip clubs into one category, all strippers into one category, or all men who visit strip clubs into one category. To do so is insulting to both men and women.

 

My two cents.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

But I wanted to jump in and offer a differing point of view to what seems to be a knee-jerk reaction that strip clubs are automatically bad.

 

My views my not knee jerk they are well researched and very thought out.

 

 

 

 

If you don't like strip clubs, don't go to them. But please don't lump all strip clubs into one category, all strippers into one category, or all men who visit strip clubs into one category. To do so is insulting to both men and women.

 

My two cents.

 

If you don't like racist jokes don't laugh at them right? Even the not so bad ones add to the atmosphere of male domination in this culture. And sure plenty of women take part in their own oppression that dynamic has been repeated by many colluders throughout history.

 

Some factory farms are worse than others. I am against the practice sexual exploitation by an industry. Sure some are not as bad, but that is not the point.

 

You also can't deny that porn/sex industry plays a role in our rape culture. there is nothing more insulting to women than stuffing money in there g-strings while they dance around on a stage. That is not control, the men with the money are in control.

 

These places depend on men who have unhealthy relationships with women and their sexuality. Combined with man pleasing mainstream media that defines women in almost entirely sexual roles. A hostile environment is made for women who don't want to play the game.

 

These women who "choose to dance" are simply buying into our mainstream culture's concept as women as man play things. As Vegans we should reject this concept in a struggle for justice. Women and dairy cows are sisters who should not be bought and sold for their flesh.

 

As a vegan I feel it is important not just to silently boycott the sex industry but raise my voice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

You also can't deny that porn/sex industry plays a role in our rape culture. there is nothing more insulting to women than stuffing money in there g-strings while they dance around on a stage.

 

As someone whose worked for over 15 yrs in the entertainment industry I'd say that things are far far far worse for a mainstream actress trying to break into Hollywood than a stripper. And many an actress has had to endure things far more insulting than dancing for money.

 

I actually think the porn & sex industry does not 'rape' our culture at all. There are many more far serious things which have over reaching and far deeper of an impact on our culture and society. It's just this industry is a lot easier to demonize.

 

Some people can't fathom of a universe where there are pro-female sex positive enterprises which aren't exploitive. But they do exist (look at Digital Playground). I'm not saying that Casa Diablo is in this class, one trip to a place isn't really enough to do more than get a first impression. But to lump all adult industries into the same camp is as bad as lumping all vegans into the same camp.

 

I understand you have serious hangups with adult businesses, and that's your right. As previously mentioned, don't spend your money at them. But in the same respect I'd caution against generalization.

 

Finally I think men bitching about the objectification of women is pretty hypocritical. Shouldn't the women who chose to dance speak for themselves? Why do they need a champion to state their cause?

 

But I have a strong feeling that we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I say they are still adults and volunteers. I'm not really into this anymore but I used to be when I was a kid. I have varying reasons but at the same time I did know a few strippers that really just loved being nude in public as much as possible and loved dancing...its their way of making money doing both.

 

When it comes to comparing them to animals I wouldn't go that far even if it is exploitive...these women choose to do this. If animals chose to be eaten then they can do that but of course they don't. There are women who have other options and choose to keep doing things like this. Tera Patrick is one example...she's a porn star and holds a Biochemistry degree...Jasmine St. Claire...another porn star is a double major from Columbia...both could have made lots of money doing something else but they chose not to.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

there is nothing more insulting to women than stuffing money in there g-strings while they dance around on a stage. That is not control, the men with the money are in control.

 

That is simply not true, and exemplifies your ignorance of what actually goes on in most typical strip clubs. Which is to be expected, seeing as I doubt you've spent much time in any strip clubs given your negative feelings towards them. The women ARE in control, the men with the money are not. That much is plainly obvious to anyone who has ever gone to a strip club and tried to sit up front without tipping.

 

These places depend on men who have unhealthy relationships with women and their sexuality.

 

Again, that is simply not true, it is a stereotype. Most of the men who go to these places have healthy relationships with women, including wives, girlfriends and mothers that they love. I know because I know many men who go to strip clubs.

 

These women who "choose to dance" are simply buying into our mainstream culture's concept as women as man play things.

 

Please take a look at your statement here. You're insulting the women who choose to dance for a living by suggesting that they don't know any better. How is that NOT patriarchal? You are doing exactly what you claim to be opposed to - demeaning these women by stating that YOU, a man, know what's best for them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

But I wanted to jump in and offer a differing point of view to what seems to be a knee-jerk reaction that strip clubs are automatically bad.

 

My views my not knee jerk they are well researched and very thought out.

Oh, really? Then prove it. You're the one stating this nonsense so it's up to you to prove it, not for us to disprove it. And here's the extra homework: If society is dominated by men then it should be easy for fathers to get custody of their children, right?!

The connection between animal products and climate change is clear. The connection between animal products and health is almost as clear and the lessening of animal suffering is clear. There are numerous positive, proven effects of a plant diet. Radical feminism is using this positiveness to exploit their agenda which is unrelated to both veganism and positive change. I'd really like you to stop including veganism or plant diets in your agenda until you can prove not only that a patriarchy does in fact exist but also until you have proven the connection between veganism and the exclusive oppression of female humans.

People will pick up on nonsense like this and since you connect it to veganism it makes me look unscientific and moronic in my approach. It's not helping at all.

The only 'proofs' I've heard so far is in the same category as this:

According to the Pastafarian belief system, pirates are "absolute divine beings" and the original Pastafarians.[3] Their image as "thieves and outcasts" is misinformation spread by Christian theologians in the Middle Ages and Hare Krishnas. Pastafarianism says that they were in fact "peace-loving explorers and spreaders of good will" who distributed candy to small children, and adds that modern pirates are in no way similar to "the fun-loving buccaneers from history." Pastafarians celebrate International Talk Like a Pirate Day on September 19.

 

The inclusion of pirates in Pastafarianism was part of Henderson's original letter to the Kansas School Board. It illustrated that Correlation does not imply causation. Henderson put forth the argument that "global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters are a direct effect of the shrinking numbers of pirates since the 1800s."[3] A chart accompanying the letter shows that as the number of pirates decreased, global temperatures increased; the absurdity of this demonstrates how statistically significant correlations do not imply a causal relationship (see confounding).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/04/FSM_Pirates.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is one woman's point of view.

 

First, I will not reveal all of the jobs I have held in my lifetime but as a girl who grew up in poverty (we straddled that "poverty level" income until I started working at age 15) I can say that I've worked whatever job I could get at times. And it was really great to be a pretty girl with a nice shape because that meant I could make more money at most jobs.

 

If it were not for the "exploitive" nature of men, I may not have been able to pay for college. I have taken advantage of the idea that men will pay good money to feel SOMETHING in relation to women. They might feel superior, exploitive, sexual, dirty, excited, appreciated - whatever. But men will part with their money if you are smart enough to get it from them and you have the physical assets to do so.

 

For me, it comes down to the individual. You can certainly generalize when it comes to strip clubs and the "exploitive" nature of them but that's too simple. I would feel MUCH less exploited dancing for money in Portland than wearing a burka in Afghanistan. And depending on your stance, some of my past actions could label me as the exploited or the exploiter - although I prefer opportunist.

 

As an aside, we are certainly not included in the poverty stricken vegans of Portland and I could not bring myself to frequent The Pirate's Tavern. I pay for quality and it just wasn't there. If we had a Candle 79 or Millennium however, I would eat there every week. The owner didn't understand that Portland doesn't need another crappy restaurant, vegan or not. I hate saying that because I really wanted to like it but the food was not good.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks to the posters defending all animals, including women in this thread-- Count and Josh.

Surprising there are even two of you on this forum. Just let this confirm to you that, if you can find this kind of sexism amongst vegans, it's not a stretch to believe the real world is any different, and you are thoroughly justified.

 

This is all a replay of several threads from a couple years ago. I'm not going to argue the obvious -- you shouldn't either, further waste your time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good posts dandaman and offence74.

 

Hey you! I agree.

 

Also from a woman's point of view and for anyone who actually follows my journal. You would know I headline. In fact I work next week. I agree with DV's post as well. BTW, men aren't the only ones who come in, I see a lot of couples and women solo. In fact several of them have a Ladies' Night, with free admission and drink specials.

 

If it's not your cup of tea, just don't go. At my last headline, there were two girls in the back studying between sets for college. Their school will be paid for when they get their degree. Not uncommon at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Denise,

 

Good to see that you decide what you want to do and you ignore those who take it upon themselves to tell you what you should and should not do.

 

I know you well enough to know that you'll ignore all this nonsense about how you are being 'exploited' and as a vegan you should know better.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow.

 

I rarely visit here, and this thread reminds me why.

 

Simply disgusting how many people are attempting to rationalize sexism and the sexual dysfunctions of our society. (And how few are speaking out...or perhaps even feel that they can with these mindless and insulting arguments, posted oh-so authoritatively from big brave loudmouth men.)

 

Great job in slowing down progress....

 

Bravo David, at least, for speaking out. For those who argue against him, ask yourself why no women are speaking out against this. Think it's because they all agree with you, or because they're just "radical feminists"?

 

In reality, the insults and insensitivity run deep, and that's the result of an ignorant and patriarchal society, and it's so very sad that even a supposedly 'progressive' vegan site demeans and oppresses women, and prevents any from even considering speaking out. And unfortunately you thoughtless male primates are only perpetuating it.

 

If you're actually sincere and serious about understanding the issue, ask questions. Stop spewing your idiocy and stop acting like some kind of authority on the subject, because you're only proving how lacking your understanding actually is, and preventing any real discourse from occurring. STOP DEFENDING AND LISTEN.

 

And for the women on here who have benefited from exploiting sexist mentalities, keep in mind that you're doing just that, and perpetuating the status quo. It's an awful joke to think you're somehow challenging it. Certainly not.

 

Also take a moment to consider what David touched on, being the effect on women who choose not to look like Barbie, or other ridiculous sexualized celebrities -- very few have any interest in appearing this way, yet are often made to feel less valued because they don't fit into that visualization. That's really great too, ain't it. Sexism is alive and well, and clearly being exploited by any who can look the part. No part of this is progressing society. Wake up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Honestly some people are gonna strip whether someone is watching and paying or someone is just watching. I seriously know a few people the like stripping and they aren't insecure people like you'd think. I'm never gonna give my money to a stripper again but that doesn't mean I don't think some women really WANT to do it...its not always a last resort, or something forced onto women.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Honestly some people are gonna strip whether someone is watching and paying or someone is just watching. I seriously know a few people the like stripping and they aren't insecure people like you'd think. I'm never gonna give my money to a stripper again but that doesn't mean I don't think some women really WANT to do it...its not always a last resort, or something forced onto women.

Exactly how is this supposed to justify it?

 

People are going to do all sorts of things, does that make it right??

 

The way it's done in a strip club certainly isn't the venue for people who are 'secure and content with their bodies'. Sheesh.

 

PS - i apologize for the harshness of my message, i'm clearly pretty pissed off over this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Someone volunteering to do something...only to themself is justifiable enough. They need not answer to anyone. Giving money to a stripper that wants to strip is nothing like killing an innocent animal. As for the few strippers I knew...they were definitely not insecure by any means...they were actually really confident educated college students...more confident than most people I know.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Someone volunteering to do something...only to themself is justifiable enough. They need not answer to anyone. Giving money to a stripper that wants to strip is nothing like killing an innocent animal. As for the few strippers I knew...they were definitely not insecure by any means...they were actually really confident educated college students...more confident than most people I know.

This is so narrow-minded Jeremy.

 

Yeah, it's their choice, and yeah they're confident, but the societal repercussion of the choice is profound and fundamentally oppressive.

 

Further, you've clearly missed the point of my message, and are one of the people who needs to clam up and listen.

 

You demonstrate exactly what i'm saying: you're acting like an authority on the subject. You're telling us what's what with women. Who the hell are you to do that??!

 

On top of it, you're not trying to understand anything, you're simply trying to rationalize your mindset. You're spouting out, telling us what you think and how you justify it. None of this has any foundation in an attempt to understand the issue at a meaningful level.

 

As an example, if you were really sincerely interested in feminism and socially progressive perspectives, you would frame your message very differently.

 

Instead of telling us what you think, you'd ask about it. You'd say something like "i'm under the impression that women who perform at strip clubs gain confidence, isn't this true?" Instead, you're just telling us what you think, which does nothing for the conversation, and demonstrates that you're closed-minded and are fully opinionated on the subject, unlikely to change your perspective.

 

And that really, really sucks when it's such an important issue.

 

I'm out of here for the night.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow...you're the one saying what women should do. You seem to be much more of an expert than I am. You must be more woman that me too then since you seem to speak for them.

 

I'm saying women should be able to do that. I'm not saying women should be strippers. I'm not gonna go as far as speaking for women and saying women shouldn't do this or that...I'm saying they should at least be able if they want. I'm thinking you need to look in a mirror to see some narrow mindedness before looking at me 3000miles away. As for not knowing anything...how many strippers do you know personally??? I know/knew quite a few so I'm a better judge than you are on their mindsets...I won't speak for woman as a whole but I will stand up for the ones I know that aren't insecure pathetic people that just need attention the way you think they do.

 

You seem to be the one speaking for women. I won't speak for Seasiren but I'll tell you one thing...she's very far from not being a confidant woman...I know...I've met her.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I think we all agree on two things:

 

1) Say anything awful you like about stripping and its impact, but I doubt anyone on here wants this to be regulated by the state with a law that outlaws stripping.

 

2) We all wish the world were a place where we could have pleasant occupations, but unfortunately we don't live in that world yet.

 

Potter isn't delusional in thinking strippers are happy with their jobs, but he doesn't think the government should outlaw stripping. You can whine all you want about power and oppression, but you must either think people should be able to do what they choose, or you think the government should outlaw the activity.

 

We all wish the world was a place where stipping didn't occur AND it wasn't outlawed - meaning that everyone lived such nice, comfortable lives that nobody wound up in a position where they even consider being a stripper.

 

Further, just because someone like potter says strippers can do what they please in the current world doesn't disqualify this person from wanting positive societal change too.

 

Women (and men) end up doing stripping because they weren't able to do the job they really wanted at that time. So why don't we just argue about how to fix that? Why don't we argue about something like the estate tax instead.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@DaveNoisy

You remind me why I don't visit veganfitness more often (even though it's a lot less of this nonsense now than in the past).

The separation of humans into groups of good and bad have been tested thoroughly throughout history with devastating results. Everybody but the people involved in those movements have seen the error committed. The ones inside the separatist groups have firmly believed that "this time we are right". This is the first reason why I and many others react so harshly to statements like yours (the tactic of demonizing other groups is usually most effective where people have no education and the only source of information is a priest or another elitist moralist like yourself). People want unification, not separation, since that have been proven to work better in almost all situations.

 

The second reason have been brought up by Tarz and me already. The far left feminist (and other far left groups for that matter) have been taking credit for the positive changes that have taken place in our society even though they have been standing on the sidelines and complaining about the tactics for the last 300 years or so. The few own experiments they've had have been destructive and devastating for the people involved. The good thing is that most people know where credit is due. It's the long and tough struggle of changing peoples mindset that most people today are not racists, homophobes or sexists. This is, as you probably know, not the tactic of the radicalist but of the liberal and the social democrat. These two groups have done all the hard work that have unified the groups created by hate and radicalism. Then, more often than not, radicalists try to take credit for the work that they opposed all along.

 

If you use veganism to justify separation of groups, I will not like it and I will ask you to stop, as I'm doing right now. Don't involve me in separation of any groups of humans since that is not the tactic I want to use.

 

I liken all the groups of radicalists (or separatists) together in one group of non-working solutions. They're packed with fundamentalist religion and all kinds of hate and it's a group that I've chosen not to be in.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey dudes, just wanted to say that people should keep to talking about the subject, and try to avoid attacking one another. There are a lot of strong views being expressed, and people have a lot of emotion connected with it, but I think it's more productive and enjoyable if the subject is the focus, I don't want this thread to get nasty and have to be locked.

 

I think it is a complicated subject; similar to what davidtarrfoster said, to actually make it illegal to strip, you'd be making these decisions for the people involved. I also wonder what people think about male stripping? Sometimes it seems that male stripping is somehow considered to be less exploitative than female stripping, I don't know why.

 

I think that there is a lot of sexism today, and women are portrayed as sex objects, and many people think of women primarily as sex objects - and that's a bad thing. However, I don't think it's true that because someone is being watched whilst stripping that it is inherently bad or wrong, or that the person is being exploited. I don't have any experience with strip clubs or anything like that, I am only talking from a hypothetical point of view.

 

As far as I know, however, there are people who get into stripping as a means of making money, rather than it being the dream job they always wanted, and I do think that's sad. Just thinking off the top of my head, I got turned down for an office job because I have a degree in illustration - something I was totally surprised at. Imagine if strip clubs had owners who actually said in the job interview "Is this a job you actually want to do?" etc, and if they felt you were just doing it through desperation, they would advise against it, or in fact not give you the job? I dunno. I feel like there probably are strip club owners who would happily employ desperate people, who wouldn't care about that person's emotions - but there are also presumably club owners who do care.

 

In terms of stripping perpetuating the idea of women as sex objects - again, I think that whilst this can be true, it isn't necessarily always the case, it depends on the people who are watching. But I personally only know one person who went to a strip club, and he only went once, so I can't claim to know about the mindset of strip club goers.

 

I don't think it is limited only to women however. Strippers, male or female, are making money from their sexuality - I don't see anything inherently wrong with it, so long as they are happy and safe. I personally wouldn't go to a strip club, I find it unpleasant to watch that kind of thing, and I'd just be uncomfortable and depressed. I think it is possible, however, to get something from someone without it dominating your entire opinion of them.

 

If I was ever somehow forced to go to see a stripper, I certainly wouldn't consider the woman to be a sex object, she is just doing a job. And people in a relationship, if you have sex, you're not necessarily treating your partner as a sex object, but you are using their body at the time for what you want - you can still have respect for them, that doesn't go away just because you are using them for sex at the time. I think it becomes bad when the people involved really are treating people as objects - but you can't really determine that one way or the other.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And people in a relationship, if you have sex, you're not necessarily treating your partner as a sex object, but you are using their body at the time for what you want - you can still have respect for them, that doesn't go away just because you are using them for sex at the time. I think it becomes bad when the people involved really are treating people as objects - but you can't really determine that one way or the other.

 

I have no problems receiving/giving a striptease from/to a girlfriend who I was in a loving relationship with. The problem with women stripping for money in a capitalist society is that they are reduced to sexual objects and nothing more. There is literally a dollar amount put on their self worth, based solely on superficial characteristics like looks, which puts great pressure and distress on women to meet these standards. By not meeting these standards, their ideas of self worth are damaged, making it increasingly likely for the same patriarchal capitalistic society that is exploiting them to continue doing so. This is only ONE of several well thought out (by others, not myself) arguments against stripping, the exploitation of women, and the capitalist/patriarchial machine. This is one of several scholarly arguments, it's not based on religion as offense has said, but rather based on interviews of women, statistics of rape and domestic violence, and other empirical, measurable horrors that result as a perpetuation of a patriarchal capitalistic society. It is going to be very difficult to link up articles on this, as there are no quick reads. Whole books, courses, and degrees are based on these ideas, so it is easy to casually dismiss them if you are not going to take the time to be quiet and educate yourself before reproducing longstanding, deep rooted oppressive social institutions (such as patriarchy).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Simply ing how many people are attempting to rationalize sexism and the sexual dysfunctions of our society. (And how few are speaking out...or perhaps even feel that they can with these mindless and insulting arguments, posted oh-so authoritatively from big brave loudmouth men.)

 

Great job in slowing down progress....

 

Bravo David, at least, for speaking out. For those who argue against him, ask yourself why no women are speaking out against this. Think it's because they all agree with you, or because they're just "radical feminists"?

 

In reality, the insults and insensitivity run deep, and that's the result of an ignorant and patriarchal society, and it's so very sad that even a supposedly 'progressive' vegan site demeans and oppresses women, and prevents any from even considering speaking out. And unfortunately you thoughtless male primates are only perpetuating it.

 

If you're actually sincere and serious about understanding the issue, ask questions. Stop spewing your idiocy and stop acting like some kind of authority on the subject, because you're only proving how lacking your understanding actually is, and preventing any real discourse from occurring. STOP DEFENDING AND LISTEN.

 

And for the women on here who have benefited from exploiting sexist mentalities, keep in mind that you're doing just that, and perpetuating the status quo. It's an awful joke to think you're somehow challenging it. Certainly not.

 

Also take a moment to consider what David touched on, being the effect on women who choose not to look like Barbie, or other ridiculous sexualized celebrities -- very few have any interest in appearing this way, yet are often made to feel less valued because they don't fit into that visualization. That's really great too, ain't it. Sexism is alive and well, and clearly being exploited by any who can look the part. No part of this is progressing society. Wake up.

 

I didn't think I'd say this but for once we agree!

You raised some really good points, some of which I chose to highlight. Good looking out.

 

Enjoy your carbs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share




×
×
  • Create New...