I feel like a bad person.....

[JW]

A seal hunting vessel capsized off the coast of Newfoundland over the weekend. 3 Seal Hunters died.

I didn't rejoice at this news but I have to admit.... the fact that they were seal hunters lessened the tragedy for me.

Ordinarily, I would be horrified at such an event happening but...... I feel good for all those baby seals who won't be clubbed to death today.

 

This is one of those times where things are very gray to me.

I abhor what these people do but these people have wives and children back home.

[Richard]

It is odd, I agree, in many ways I would prefer hunters to be killed, rather than them continue to kill dozens of animals each in their lives. But that's not to say that I think the best way to deal with hunters is to kill them! Just that their deaths are favourable to the deaths of the animals.

[xjohanx]

it's a dangerous way of thinking but i feel the exact same way.

[JW]

a very tough situation

 

I've always been taught and have always believed that you should value all life.

I think I do live this way but it puzzles me why I feel less for these hunters than I would for someone else.

 

I'd likely feel more compassion if I heard that 3 seal hunters were killed in an auto accident. I'm pretty sure that my feelings are centred around the fact that they were on their way to slaughter innocent seals.

[Richard]

They're people who kill for no good reason, that's why it doesn't feel bad to say "I prefer them to die than the seals". If a lion dies, I feel bad, even though it kills zebras or whatever, it has to kill those zebras. Seal hunters have no excuse for what they do, so I feel they are "guilty", and their lives are therefore not worth as much as a seal who is "innocent" (or at least, certainly more innocent)

 

An anology would be;

 

A man has a gun and runs across the street firing at kids in a school yard. Then a truck comes by and runs him down. You can't feel too bad for the guy!

[beforewisdom]

From what I understand seal hunters earn the bulk of their money doing other things, they and their families do not need seal hunting to survive.

 

You would be an ass if you went around cheering at their misfortune, but you aren't guilty for having thoughts that every other human has from time to time. You are also ahead of the game by seeing that thinking like that is a dead end.

[Guest]

I'm not cheering or anything but I don't feel bad by any means. Its not even remote payback for what they've done.

[joninvegaz]

can anyone say karma?

[Live_Simply]

A seal hunting vessel capsized off the coast of Newfoundland over the weekend. 3 Seal Hunters died.

I didn't rejoice at this news but I have to admit.... the fact that they were seal hunters lessened the tragedy for me.

Ordinarily, I would be horrified at such an event happening but...... I feel good for all those baby seals who won't be clubbed to death today.

 

This is one of those times where things are very gray to me.

I abhor what these people do but these people have wives and children back home.

 

Simply in questioning your own feelings toward their demise you are exhibiting infinitely more compassion than these gruesome individuals ever did. Don't fret over your thoughts and feelings, as they can only arise out of a good and decent person.

[Richard]

There's also a big difference between thinking their deaths aren't so bad, and killing them yourself. Your thoughts alone are pretty much harmless, I don't think that thoughts are all that bad.

[xjohanx]

can anyone say karma?

 

word

[JW]

Thanks everyone!

appreciate your input on this

[Live_Simply]

There's also a big difference between thinking their deaths aren't so bad, and killing them yourself. Your thoughts alone are pretty much harmless, I don't think that thoughts are all that bad.

 

Yes, thoughts, per se, can't be morally right or wrong while intentions are. There are three parts to morality or a moral act: 1) the intention of the actor, 2) the objective act, and 3) the circumstances in which the act is intended and/or committed. Since JW's intention-- even if his/her feeling rose to the level of taking delight in the seal hunters' death-- was simply to stop the violence and evil committed against God's creatures, certainly his/her vexing thoughts in the matter can't be immoral.

[DV]

Sometimes I have compassion and sometimes I don't - according to others' definition of the word.

 

The human population on this planet has exploded and the population of almost every animal (except domesticated animals for our use) has decreased. I feel nothing for a few dead humans, regardless of their emotional ties to others, if they are seriously contributing to this imbalance. Just like I would feel relatively okay about the early death of someone whose goal is to have 10 biological children. If you're not part of the solution..........

[Dr. Pink]

In general I feel sad. Plus the fact that I don't know these men makes me neutral. Death in any sense is sad. for all we know these men could have hated there jobs, have a loving family at home, and only work to support them. For all we know they could very easily be against all of this hunting but forced to do it because it's the only line of work they can do.

 

On the other hand not all human life has value. For example. Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Jeffery Donner. Not very many people were sad when they died.

 

But we don't know them. so it's hard to feel sad or happy.

[Guest]

You don't know any of those men personally either. These people are sick human beings...not just people that did something that was kinda mean. Many of those men may have killed hundreds of seals in one day alone....it takes a sick human being to do that and I say drowning isn't a painful enough death for payback.

[Animal]

This news made me quite sad... sad that the sealers didn't die the way many baby seals die every year. Sealers deserve a humane slaughter too, in congruence with the Canadian government regulations for a "sustainable" and "humane" harvest. Like being clubbed with hakapics and skinned alive.

 

As a Canadian, I am so embarrassed and angry at my government. Not only is our government subsidizing this massacre and lobbying for new markets for seal products, they have also passed undemocratic laws that prevent anyone from approaching a seal hunt and documenting it. They arrest people for videotaping the horror they finance on the ice floes. The Newfoundlanders already wiped a few species in their greedy bloodbaths. They decimated their own cod population by overfishing, while claiming they know how to "manage" their "resources". It breaks my heart to see them do it to the seals as well.

 

I wish more sealers would die. I wish they'd get brutally raped by polar bears and get torn to pieces to feed the seals.

 

Sorry, I just had to vent my rage. I'll have a vegan cookie and try to maintain a facade of respect for fellow humans.

[JW]

I just can't feel the same way.....

As much as I absolutely abhor what they do, most of these people know no different life. Much of it is out of ignorance.

They still have spouses and children at home.

 

Sensitive topic in a Forum where so many people are soooo compassinate to animals.

[Bill]

I also felt nothing upon hearing of their death, as I don’t know them, and so, it’s hard to care.

 

In a sense though, I’m not sure if I’d judge them too harshly. I think all people have the capacity to harness inner feelings of hatred and rage and power, which could make the deaths of animals (and even people) a fairly enjoyable experience. I’m not saying that to sound ing, but I think history is filled with accounts of "normal" people who enter into warfare and are usually able to access their “killer instinctsâ€

[Richard]

I think that people who choose to beat animals to death are certainly quite different from me. I agree that it is common for people to not have respect for animals, and even to enjoy killing or harming them. But that doesn't mean it's good - it makes it worse because it's so widespread in my opinion.

[xdarthveganx]

It is not said, or tragic, its commonly referred to as justice.

 

These people are murders plain and simple, they deserve the very same fate.

[xdarthveganx]

I also felt nothing upon hearing of their death, as I don’t know them, and so, it’s hard to care.

 

In a sense though, I’m not sure if I’d judge them too harshly. I think all people have the capacity to harness inner feelings of hatred and rage and power, which could make the deaths of animals (and even people) a fairly enjoyable experience. I’m not saying that to sound ing, but I think history is filled with accounts of "normal" people who enter into warfare and are usually able to access their “killer instinctsâ€

[VeganEssentials]

It is not said, or tragic, its commonly referred to as justice.

 

These people are murders plain and simple, they deserve the very same fate.

 

I have mixed feelings about the whole thing. In some ways I'd like to feel good about it, but I have a conscience that prevents me from doing so, much like JW.

 

But, I will say one thing in regard to your response - I've had MANY people tell me over the years that the kind of statement you made above is what has given them a bad impression of the AR movement. I'm not making a critical judgement of that mindset (like I said, I struggle with it), but to the outsider, I can fully understand that it makes those who support AR look very awkward and non-compassionate and I can understand how it can be a detraction for the movement to pick and choose when to be compassionate and not abide by a truly peaceful nature toward all, even those who have been guilty of terrible offenses.

 

I had one person who was somewhat anti-AR recently say to me "So, since you people find it justice to see those who kill animals get killed themselves, you vegans who think that way MUST be in favor of capital punishment for offenders of violent crimes. You'd all be a bunch of hypocritical bastards if you thought a someone like a slaugherhouse worker can die tragically and have it justified because of their occupation, but somehow a man that kills another is different and should be given another chance?" I do have to admit, I was a bit stumped at how to respond (since I'm not exactly the voice of the entire movement, I can't speak for everyone when faced with such a question), but it did make me think - IS there a difference when you believe that someone who kills animals is justifiably killed, be it accidentally or otherwise? How is it possible that you could say that this is fair game and justified and yet say that someone who was a rapist or murderer deserves to live in prison and not be killed for their violent crimes?

 

Like I said, I'm not picking sides here, but am just curious to see what people think on that one

[Richard]

If a rapist or murderer walked across the street and got hit by a bus, I think the reaction would be the same - I'd say it's no big loss (especially if they continually raping / murdering people). An accidental death is not the same as an execution in my opinion. If someone feels like the deaths of these guys is a positive thing (in these circumstances) it doesn't mean that they think that all animal-abusers should be rounded up and executed, it's totally different in my opinion. I personally think that in a perfect world, it would be illegal to kill an animal deliberately, in the same way it is to kill a human; and I think they should be arrested. Clearly, at this moment in time that's impossible for many reasons! But that's the way I view it. I don't think people should be executed necessarily.

 

The other thing to remember is that a murderer / rapist might only have 1 victim - even if they're a serial killer, they might only have a dozen victims or something. People who kill animals do it in the hundreds / thousands. If a person had killed / tortured / raped 5,000 people, then maybe I would think "yeah this person should be killed". If someone has only killed 1 animal, I'd compare that directly to someone killing 1 human - definitely arrest them, but I don't see the need to execute that person necessarily, it depends case by case that I hear about. Some people seem like they won't change and they are malicious, and I feel more like killing that kind of person than someone who just has anger issues which might be able to be dealt with or something. But I have mixed feelings about the death penalty anyway, I don't have a solid opinion either way at the moment. But if a murderer accidentally dies, it doesn't affect me, it seems like a positive thing, or just a non-incident, just like with these hunters.

[Bill]

We should side with the victim, not the oppressor. Remember now, hitler was a person as well, maybe we shouldn't judge him either. Hell why don't you hold a candlelight vigil for anniversary of his death every year?

 

That reminds me of one of my favorite lines, "The Nazi's had peices of flair that they made the Jews wear."

 

My points were simple:

 

1) People aren't born evil or good. They have behaviors that can change do to various factors. Society is similar. We once saw slavery as an ok behavior, now we don't. It was once socially acceptable to say fairly sexist things in public, now it is not. Society is capable of progress, just as it is capable or regressing.

 

2) Barring a scenario in which most people wouldn't want to kill seals, or engage in dog fights, or whatever, the next best option is to enact laws and enforce laws that can cut down on these behaviors.

 

I may be wrong, but doesn't that seem like a path towards achieving real goals?

 

Personally, I've known tons of people who have hunted and fished (granted, seal clubbing is in another league). But if you are trying to change society to be more compassionate, or enact tougher animal rights laws, your not going to win me over by comparing my grandfather (a hunter) to a rapist. xdarthveganx, I certainly see that your point of view about the power structure has some merit, but I think it's not the best strategy for effectively convincing other people, like VeganEssentials pointed out.