What hope is there for mankind....

[Jay]

when even vegans treat one another so badly?

 

It's the worst thing in my life, as a result of becoming vegan, I got on the internet and looked for other vegans. Instead of finding inclusive people who cared about each other. I found people who treated each other just like everyone else does.

 

(Example edited out by Jay)

 

It's hardly just there. I've looked at many vegan forums online and see the same sort of indifference everywhere.

 

I don't get it. How can people who like to preach such compassion be so indifferent?

 

And what hope does this world have, when this indifference so permeates everything?

 

Do indifferent people even realize what they're doing? Personally I'd feel like a monster if I ever said, "I wish she'd just go away."

 

If I just ignored someone's pm, I'd also feel like a monster.

 

The same as I felt like a monster when I ate meat.

Edited May 14, 2008 by Jay

[Im Your Man]

There's not so much hope in mankind (but there's a little bit and we need to hold on to the small hope there is) when we think that there is more people pissed of by Micheal Moore than there is people who appreciate what he does or try to do with his books and documentaries. I know that Micheal Moore may not be the most ecological person there is when it comed to eat meat at fast-food restaurants or driving in his SUV, and I know that he trafficates some informations in his movies, he shapes the reality for what he wants to say, but all medias to this, left or right, at least he's doing this for our own good, for us and the planet. So I don't see why so many people (including some vegans and people that call themselves environmentalis and ecologists) are so pissed of by Micheal Moore, and they don't say anything against the true monsters, like the medias that really hide the truth, or the dictators like Saddam Hussein, George W. Bush, etc...yeah, of course, those are the good guys, and Micheal Moore is the bad guy that we need to get ridden of because he's so dangerous...

 

I'm a vegan, who don't harm anybody (I gave a black eye to one person, that's it) and don't even harm any animal at all, but still there's some vegans here (vegans, so I thought they would be more compassionate and smarter people) to say I'm just like Hitler and Charles Manson. Really? They litterally said that. Because I said humankind needs to face some more floods (because right now it seems it's not enough) in order to view things straight, to them I'm like someone who killed 6 millions jews. I know this is too funny to take it seriously, but it makes me wonder about how people think and see things.

Strange perception of things...

 

So basically, some people (vegans or not) like to call monsters who are a danger for society the people who are trying to help, and they're electing the persons that don't give a damn about nature, environment, or dropping bombs on other countries.

Edited May 14, 2008 by I'm Your Man

[robert]

It is an interesting thing..............I've started to think vegans are just like everyone else and I've posted a bit about that over the past 6 months (including viewpoints that weren't very popular at all).

 

What I mean by "just like everyone else" is that veganism is part of our life, and for some people it is a big part of their life, but they still have all their own personality traits, character traits, pet peeves, individual characteristics, and they do what they like to do.

 

I actually don't have much in common with "vegans" where I live in what is called "the vegan capital of the world." (Portland, OR). In fact, lately I was talking to some vegan business owners and I was enthusiastically talking about how great Portland is and I moved here and fit right in.....they smiled and laughed and said, "dude, you don't fit in with the Portland vegan crowd." And they're right. I'm not counter-culture, I don't listen to a certain type of music that is popular in that scene or dress in ways that are popular in that scene.

 

I'm totally mainstream, enjoy mainstream activities and happen to live a vegan lifestyle.

 

Everyone is so different, it is very hard to get any group of people of any large number to get along fully.

 

So not all vegans are going to treat each other with kindness, compassion, and respect as we'd like to think, hope or respect. I think that is just the way it is.

 

I personally dedicate my life to kindness towards others and understand the value of lifting others up and making everyone feel appreciated. I can't possibly have that impression on everyone I meet because I meet thousands of people in all kinds of settings, but that is my mission and I'm successful 90% of the time.

 

Everyone is different and I don't think veganism is something that is powerful enough to bring people together who have totally different values, beliefs, and personality traits, outside of veganism.

 

I always stay optimistic though.....

[Jay]

There's not so much hope in mankind (but there's a little bit and we need to hold on to the small hope there is) when we think that there is more people pissed of by Micheal Moore than there is people who appreciate what he does or try to do with his books and documentaries. I know that Micheal Moore may not be the most ecological person there is when it comed to eat meat at fast-food restaurants or driving in his SUV, and I know that he trafficates some informations in his movies, he shapes the reality for what he wants to say, but all medias to this, left or right, at least he's doing this for our own good, for us and the planet. So I don't see why so many people (including some vegans and people that call themselves environmentalis and ecologists) are so pissed of by Micheal Moore, and they don't say anything against the true monsters, like the medias that really hide the truth, or the dictators like Saddam Hussein, George W. Bush, etc...yeah, of course, those are the good guys, and Micheal Moore is the bad guy that we need to get ridden of because he's so dangerous...

Yeah, I have never said badthings about Michael Moore. I understand some vegans do. I guess there's just too many other things to complain about.

 

I do find it very saddening how some people who drink the kool aid are filled with such hatred for him. It seems very easy to push some people's "hate buttons".

 

I'm a vegan, who don't harm anybody (I gave a black eye to one person, that's it) and don't even harm any animal at all, but still there's some vegans here (vegans, so I thought they would be more compassionate and smarter people) to say I'm just like Hitler and Charles Manson. Really? They litterally said that. Because I said humankind needs to face some more floods (because right now it seems it's not enough) in order to view things straight, to them I'm like someone who killed 6 millions jews. I know this is too funny to take it seriously, but it makes me wonder about how people think and see things.

Strange perception of things...

Outside of a boxing ring I haven't thrown a punch at someone since the 6th grade (and that was in self defense). But still I also am apparently a horrible person.

 

I'm sorry some people said such things of you.

[Jay]

It is an interesting thing..............I've started to think vegans are just like everyone else and I've posted a bit about that over the past 6 months (including viewpoints that weren't very popular at all).

I think veganism is a small step. I think much more needs to be done.

I think people need to reexamine a lot more than how they eat. I think they need to look at their social norms. IOW, how they interact with one another.

 

I don't think eating meat is just this one bad thing unrelated to the rest of human society. I think the rest of how we act results in us being so indifferent to animals for example. And to each other.

 

What I mean by "just like everyone else" is that veganism is part of our life, and for some people it is a big part of their life, but they still have all their own personality traits, character traits, pet peeves, individual characteristics, and they do what they like to do.

 

I actually don't have much in common with "vegans" where I live in what is called "the vegan capital of the world." (Portland, OR). In fact, lately I was talking to some vegan business owners and I was enthusiastically talking about how great Portland is and I moved here and fit right in.....they smiled and laughed and said, "dude, you don't fit in with the Portland vegan crowd." And they're right. I'm not counter-culture, I don't listen to a certain type of music that is popular in that scene or dress in ways that are popular in that scene.

 

I'm totally mainstream, enjoy mainstream activities and happen to live a vegan lifestyle.

 

Everyone is so different, it is very hard to get any group of people of any large number to get along fully.

Robert you are different from the "average vegan". So am I. Obviously we're quite different from each other. You seem to be doing OK with that.

 

I'm not. Probably because you are otherwise basically mainstream. While I'm a stream on Mars.

 

So not all vegans are going to treat each other with kindness, compassion, and respect as we'd like to think, hope or respect. I think that is just the way it is.

I'm trying to understand this, but have not been able to.

 

I personally dedicate my life to kindness towards others and understand the value of lifting others up and making everyone feel appreciated. I can't possibly have that impression on everyone I meet because I meet thousands of people in all kinds of settings, but that is my mission and I'm successful 90% of the time.

People have different ideas about what is the kind way to act. I know of a recent occurence where some one thinks badly of you. I understand you're trying to be good though. I suppose most people are trying and just have very different ideas about that. I, for example, do have a very different idea from you.

 

I'm in the most extreme minority. TBH, as you say, you're pretty mainstream. And as I said, I think there's a lot more to be done than for people to just become vegan.

 

With that single fact, I have a lot of unhappiness to look forward to.

 

Everyone is different and I don't think veganism is something that is powerful enough to bring people together who have totally different values, beliefs, and personality traits, outside of veganism.

I guess so.

 

I always stay optimistic though.....

I understand being optimistic is an important part of changing things. Believe it or not, I am optimistic at times. Not so much online though. Very unhappy with what I've found online.

 

I appreciate very much that you and I'm Your Man took the time to respond.

[pelicanAndrew]

Being vegan doesn't automatically make you a nice person. I usually like vegans and vegetarians more than the average joe but I still find an asshole veggie every now and then. Some people have dispositions like that for one reason or another. Maybe they're going through a tough time, or they went through a tough time that traumatized them.

 

I don't really know where I'm going with this. I just woke up.

[Marcina]

I've been picked on by asshole vegans too, man.

 

Some people are angry because they had a difficult childhood, or weren't loved enough.. and some people are just jerks!

 

I was on a forum on Facebook that I left because people kept playing the "I'm more vegan that you" game.

 

I went back though, because those jerk people don't post there anymore.

[nobbi]

when even vegans treat one another so badly?

The same as I felt like a monster when I ate meat.

 

Well, I do not believe that vegans are saints and that meat-eaters are monsters. You just live in different ways.

Personally I try to be kind to everybody. But I do this, because that's the way I am and not because I am vegan. Which means also that I am free to be nasty to someone.

Vegan or not, the human brain remains complex and that's why you always have to deal with people treating one another badly.

[cubby2112]

I agree that in veganism, you can find just about any extreme of personality there is. There are those who became vegan purely because of the fact that they are compassionate, which is something I believe I can say about many of the people here. There are still others, though, who have done it because it is something cool or counter-culture to do, or perhaps because they have a need to feel different than or superior to others. That is where you find your assholes. At least I hope.

[cubby2112]

I was on a forum on Facebook that I left because people kept playing the "I'm more vegan that you" game.

 

People who play that are the ones I am talking about. These are the types who are doing it for elitist purposes.

[xveganjoshx]

Vegans are just as fallible as any other people. Why should they be different?

[Tasha]

Good point Josh

[hsorlando]

Vegans are people like everyone else, so we're not going to be perfect. But at least we don't eat animals, mistreat them, or wear them. We've got that part right.

[VeganEssentials]

Hey, Jay -

 

Hadn't seen much of you around in a stretch, but glad to see you're back.

 

Sorry to hear your disillusionment with the way so many vegans are. I do agree with most everyone here, that vegans are just like everyone else and can either be kind, caring people or misanthropic a$$holes, just like non-vegans are. I've always compared it to Christianity in that there are some great principles to living according to the basic theories, but most people tend to ignore the most valuable lessons because they only like parts of the whole deal and may just want a label to fall under moreso than anything else. In theory, vegans SHOULD be compassionate to all people as well as animals, but unfortunately, that doesn't really happen in the real world. Just like how many Christians should follow the "judge not, lest ye be judged" and "love thy neighbor" principles and yet can be the most scrutinizing, critical people on the planet. It sucks that people often only want the parts of the package that suits their thoughts at the time, but there's nothing you can do to change the minds of those who have made their decisions and are hardlined to doing it their own way, even if it is contradictory to what the whole thing stands for.

 

All you can do is keep your chin up, don't let the naysayers and crap-talkers get to you, and guide by example. I know that you had some rough dealings with people on the VF board, but screw it, that's in the past now, so you've got to let that stuff go and move on. There are still good people there, but if the vibe was bad for you, it's best to move beyond it and not even waste your time thinking about what made you so upset before. Stay out of arguments that are bound to get you infuriated when you know you're going to be in for a battle (I steer clear of 90% of the things I feel compelled to write back about, because I know it's only going to turn into a shouting match), and stick to things that make you feel good and discussing things where the audience is open to differing views. It's not always easy, but learning the self-control to avoid toxic situations is imperitive to maintaining a positive outlook, so that's something you'll probably want to start doing if you don't want to keep seeing only the bad in what you experience in dealing with people on message boards.

 

I feel for you, I know that it was only a few months ago during a pretty low stretch with lots of depression during the winter that I finally had to learn to distance my emotions from online forums and some of the negative people I was exposed to. I feel MUCH better after making those changes - steering clear of forums that I knew would instigate bad feelings, as well as letting go of that which had bothered me in the past. You can't change what's been said/done before, so it's time to move on, stop conversing with those who have lead you to feel like there's no good out there, thicken your skin a bit so that you don't take everything personally that could bother you, and seek out more who are like-minded (or, at least open-minded). You're going to feel a lot better for it, so make the changes you need to for your own sake and your overall outlook WILL change in time.

 

Ryan

[Jay]

Thanks so much for the replies.

 

Ultimately I want to think positively of vegans. To think they are no more compassionate than average is really a pretty negative thing to think. And perhaps they are more compassionate. Really the nonvegan boards I've associated with in the past are far worse I guess, generally.

 

Thanks especially for the long reply Ryan. One ultimately I think has to do that. There is only so much confrontation a person can stand. But if taken too far, (only focusing on the positive, etc) that means never becoming a vegan in the first place, as becoming vegan surely means being willing to face a hugely negative thing. And I think it interesting, what is going on inside a person that they are willing to face such a thing while most people will not.

 

BTW, (nobbi) I don't think of omni's as monsters at all. Just had the thought about myself when I was one. Definitely I don't go around thinking like that. I do think people are horribly assimilated. Controlled by fear and so on. But I don't think they're monsters.

 

Per a friend not liking my OP. I'll edit it. But I really think harm is being caused. And as such it doesn't seem to me that secrecy is doing anyone any good at all.

[Guest]

Nearly everyone sucks in some way or another...vegan or not. Many people on this forum can attest to how much I suck. Once you take away the fact that we're vegan we're all just people...people that are greedy...eat too much...drive too much...get stressed out about stuff...we're still human...we just don't kill anything while we're humans.

[xveganjoshx]

Many people on this forum can attest to how much I suck.

[Guest]

Are you rubbing it in...you must really think I suck

[Im Your Man]

Vegans are just as fallible as any other people. Why should they be different?

 

Maybe you're right. But I see myself as someone who is more conscious and respectful about animals, and even about the planet, nature, me and other humans... more respectful about life in general. But I haven't always been like this. I became like this more and more over the years. Being vegan was not the cause, nor the result, but it came upon my way naturally. The same way that a yogin doesn't choose to change his nutrition habits only because he began practicing yoga, it just happens, because he becomes more peaceful, serene and more receptive to everything surrounding him, to reality and life.

Why are you vegan ? Perhaps because you love animals and want to give them respect so you let them live their life. In that way you're different than most people, perhaps more receptive to others and more sensitive.

People aren't like that because they're vegan, they're vegan because they have this humanity. Therefore when someone is vegan, it could be seen like a sign, telling "I'm not like anybody else".

But when you say vegans are not different from all the others, you're basically saying that buddhist monks, zen masters, yogins, any person who practices meditation, are all like anybody else and they would be able to go to war, or capable of even the smallest act of violence. I don't think so. I know those are spiritual beings so that's not a good example.

Let's say raw foodists and strict vegans that do it because of ethical reasons, like nature and animals -- not because they're lunatics in a secret sect or if they're mentally ill like vegeterian Adolf Hitler--, could you imagine one of them committing a murder in cold blood, like many omnivores do ? Is there a murder case classified somewhere as the perpretor being a vegan, any news like that in history archives?

[Im Your Man]

..vegan or not. we're still human...we just don't kill anything while we're humans.

 

That means we also think differently. We learned to transform and use our agressivity other ways than by killing. That's a huge difference, don't you think so ? To kill or not to kill. That's like day and night, life and death. What other difference can be bigger than that? If everybody would be like that (us) there wouldn't be any war, genocide, homicide, murder...

[Guest]

I don't think there's a difference because not all vegans are even remotely peaceful. I wouldn't call myself peaceful and there are many others here that wouldn't put themselves in the always anti war category. Surely nearly everyone here's smart enough to be against the war we're in now but a lot of use aren't anti war in every situation. If you think there wouldn't be war if we were all vegan your strongly mistaken.

[Im Your Man]

Being anti-war not only means to refuse to participating in a war as a soldier, it can also mean doing activism against war.

But we don't need to be anti-war to refuse to go to war, we just need to be smart enough -- not pro-war, not anti-war, but in the middle, neutral. A neutral person will only vote if there is a perfect candidate that match his ideas. A neutral person will not go to any war for his country just for patriotic reasons, he will go if the cause is really necessary, and wars like that are very rare. To stop Hitler before he became unstoppable, that's a good motif to go to war. Thing is, if all presidents were vegans or respectful consciousness persons (for this we would need nations that are like that too, instead of choosing Arnold Cheeseburger or G.W. Bush as presidents), there would be no war declared, and the law that force every citizen of a nation to go to war would be abolished.

 

I hear sometimes an American comes to Canada as a refugee because he doesn't want to go to Irak. Is it really true that ALL of you had to joined the army at one point in your life, or will be when you get 18, 21 ? Is this good for women too?

[Guest]

You're saying what we need to do but guess what...what you think you need isn't what every vegan thinks. THERE ARE VEGANS IN THE MILITARY. They feel they need to be available to fight in case they are needed. If we weren't in Iraq and we had our military focused on N. Korea or many parts of Africa I'd enlist in a second. I strongly considered going into the Navy and I still wouldn't mind if it weren't for our careless leaders.

 

As for mandatory service...what people have told you is nuts. Where the hell did you hear that from??? We don't have required military service. many nations do but we never have. We had a draft in Vietnam and that was the last time we sent people to battle that didn't volunteer to be in the military. Do all Canadians flee from Canada in the winter because its cold???

 

Thirty years ago there were people who went to Canada to avoid the draft but that was it. There are countries with mandatory military service. Most don't require women to serve. Israel is one of the few nations that require men and women to serve(not that it matters...its pretty sexist for only force men to go).

[Tarz]

Being anti-war not only means to refuse to participating in a war as a soldier, it can also mean doing activism against war.

But we don't need to be anti-war to refuse to go to war, we just need to be smart enough -- not pro-war, not anti-war, but in the middle, neutral. A neutral person will only vote if there is a perfect candidate that match his ideas.

Thing is, once you've signed up for the military you don't get to pick and choose where you do and don't want to serve. You get sent whether the top brass wants you to go. Refuse to serve and you're going to be court-martialled. But yeah, people may decide to join - or not join - their country's armed forces during a time of conflict depending on whether they agree with that intervention or not. If you're already in the services, tough luck, that's the chance you take when you sign up.

 

I think it's strange to regard all vegans as needing to be neutral on war.

 

Many vegans are anti-war/anti-miiltarist/pacifist (and I can understand why so many vegans have that attitude) period and they aren't going to change, although some anti-war vegans may adjust their attitude for what they consider a 'just' war where intervention is the better option rather than deciding to sit back and watch a situation detoriate and escalate. I.e some anti-war vegans may not trouble themselves too much if the Burmese junta - much in the news of late for obvious reasons - was overthrown as a result of a little Western intervention.

 

Even pro-war vegans don't back every war - it just depends on the situation.

 

So the situation is not as simple - as black and white - as you decribe.

 

A perfect candidate? There has never been a perfect candidate. Sure you may agree with most of a candidate's policies, but have you or anyone ever agreed with absolutely everything a candidate put forward? In an ideal world, you may get a perfect candidate, thing is though everyone's ideas of what is 'perfect' rather differs. So that is why you don't get perfect candidates - they have to appeal to as much of the electorate as possible, otherwise they're not going to get very far in politics. I'm sorry, but by your reasoning 'neutrals' will never actually be voting then...

 

Hitler being a vegetarian is a myth.

[Im Your Man]

You're saying what we need to do but guess what...what you think you need isn't what every vegan thinks. THERE ARE VEGANS IN THE MILITARY.

I'm saying what would be best for the world, what we should do. Don't you agree that if nobody on Earth wants to go in the army, there won't be any war, even if each president of each country were all psychopaths thristhy for blood, they would need soldiers, they wouldn't fight against each others just like that by themself.

What the military vegans eat ? They serve some meat puree, with milk, and some Jell-O for dessert. It's like trying to be vegan with hospital food or prison food, Lol.

 

 

As for mandatory service...what people have told you is nuts. Where the hell did you hear that from??? We don't have required military service. many nations do but we never have. We had a draft in Vietnam and that was the last time we sent people to battle that didn't volunteer to be in the military. Do all Canadians flee from Canada in the winter because its cold???

 

I heard that from a guy on tv, the news tv guy, at the evening news, on the national broadcast channel, I don't remember what date it was. I don't watch tv anymore but that was in the early years of the war in Iraq. And believe me, it was real, I'm not the type of person that like to make dreams about news on tv, I got more beautiful things to dream of. It was a young American, maybe 20 years old. He was saying he had to chose between : going to Irak or going to prison. For a country that tells it's based on Freedom, what kind of liberty is that? Joining the army would mean giving up your freedom, to stop being human... Now that I think about it, perhaps he was already in the army, but didn't want to go to Irak.

I also heard that many anti-Iraq-war Americans left USA to go live in Canada. This I heard from interviews of those Americans speaking in person.

If sending unvoluntary people in Vietnam happened, it wouldn't have been so surprising that it could have happen for Irak too.

Anyway, I'm glad it's not an American policy, but why do I keep seeing things like that in Hollywood movies, many times there's this character saying to his girlfriend : "I've got to leave to do my 3 months military obligation then I'll be back, I promise". You never saw a scene like that?

 

Why would you like to go in the Navy? You would prefer killing people, or sitting in an office to give orders or push buttons to make some people killed, rather that cycling and making pottery??

 

 

I think it's strange to regard all vegans as needing to be neutral on war.

 

I never said things need to be like that, I'm just saying what a world with peace would look like. It would a world with no wars, of course. I know there always have been wars since mankind, so the only way it's possible is if humans change their way of thinking for a complete new one. As like mentionned in the 2012 propheties, when all planets of our solar system will align perfectly with the sun, and Earth will inverse polarities, and mankind will enter a new (spiritual and temporal) era. But I doubt anything like that will actually happen, even if I wish it was possible. I think maybe in a thousand years, if things goes well, mankind will be totally peaceful, with zero murder and no wars, not even a single negative thought, because we will have evolved to higher spiritual levels of consciousness.. It's either this, or an apocalyptic world where all humans desctructed themselves in nuclear wars, and few survivors living in ruins and catacombs.

I prefer the first scenario, and you?

It's amazing how few people here think positive and are optimistic... Of who I can think of, there is only Robert, VeggiePrincess and Mango Suma... Lean & Green ?

 

 

A perfect candidate? There has never been a perfect candidate. Sure you may agree with most of a candidate's policies, but have you or anyone ever agreed with absolutely everything a candidate put forward? In an ideal world, you may get a perfect candidate, thing is though everyone's ideas of what is 'perfect' rather differs. So that is why you don't get perfect candidates - they have to appeal to as much of the electorate as possible, otherwise they're not going to get very far in politics.

 

Yes, there has been a few (or at least one) candidate that I agree perfectly with all he was saying about every subjects. In Canada and in Quebec. They get less than 5% of winning votes of course, because most people prefer to vote for monsters.

When I said "perfect", I mean perfection for an individual, not the mass. But if the majority agree on electing a psychopath like Nixon, G.W.Bush, why the opposite wouldn't be possible? If the majority of people need to stay like what they are right now, then we're doomed. Because it will always be the mass that will control and decide what the world will be, no matter how far the brainwashing by governments and leaders go .