IGF-1 and Protein

Hi,

I recently watched:

 

I am concerned. I am vegan and i want to grow larger muscles and get stronger. I have bought a soy protein powder in order to get more protein in my diet, as everyone i have spoke to says you need protein to can muscle mass. I was told that if you weigh 200 lbs then you need 200 grams of protein a day, if you weigh 150lbs then you need 150grams of protein a day, etc.

 

Is this true? I dont want to increase my risk of getting cancer in order to build muscles... are there other sources of protein that will not increase Insulin Growth Factor 1? Will all protein concentrates to the same thing to IGF-1? Will any unprocessed foods (such as boiled beans) provide enough protein? Will it also increase IGF-1?

 

Im confused.

If there are vegan protein concentrates that dont increase IGF-1, what are they?

From what we have discussed in other threads, it seems that any isolated source of protein will promote IGF-1, soy being the worst. Hemp I have heard will not do this, though. You can get plenty of protein with the beans and no hemp, so it is a question mostly of whether you want to be able to get a lot of your protein from smoothies with the hemp for ease.

I think the IGF-1 thing kinda freaked us all out a bit and it's fairly new to most of the members here so we don't know that much about different protein powders. I still have some pea protein isolate left which I 'm going to use but I probably won't buy it again.

You can easily replace the protein powder you take before/after workouts with essential amino acids (EAAs) I did this way before I heard about the IGF-1 and protein powders. EAAs is also really nice to wake up too acctually, after a whole night without food your body is craving amino acids. Take it right after you get out of bed in the morning and you will get a lot of energy (at least that is what happened with me, probably because of the BCAA). The EAA supplement is a lot less stressful for the liver too which is nice if you're on a high protein diet.

There's more to the story than levels of IGF-1 alone. While IGF-1 in general is well-correlated with certain effects, biochemistry is never so simple. One interesting read is a paper that predicts certain biochemical effects of a vegan diet: M.F. McCarty, Vegan proteins may reduce risk of cancer, obesity, and cardiovascular disease by promoting increased glucagon activity, Medical Hypotheses 53 (1999), pp. 459–485.

 

The author presents some evidence that a typical Western high-fiber, soy-heavy vegan diet actually upregulates an IGF-1 antagonist (among other things). It's essentially a protein that partially blocks the effects of IGF-1 within the body (he goes on to show some evidence that IGF-1 activity is reduced in vegans to help support his prediction). So the levels of IGF-1 in your body are only part of the story - the regulation of IGF-1 receptors and antagonists can have a huge modulatory effect.

 

What does this all mean? We really need to see more studies on the subject to tease out whether a soy protein-heavy vegan diet induces more or less IGF-1 activity (which is determined in part by the balance of the levels of IGF-1 and its antagonists). There is currently so much controversy surrounding the issues of soy and cancer - another example being whether soy isoflavones have protective effects or not.

Hi,

I recently watched:

 

I am concerned. I am vegan and i want to grow larger muscles and get stronger. I have bought a soy protein powder in order to get more protein in my diet, as everyone i have spoke to says you need protein to can muscle mass. I was told that if you weigh 200 lbs then you need 200 grams of protein a day, if you weigh 150lbs then you need 150grams of protein a day, etc.

 

Is this true? I dont want to increase my risk of getting cancer in order to build muscles... are there other sources of protein that will not increase Insulin Growth Factor 1? Will all protein concentrates to the same thing to IGF-1? Will any unprocessed foods (such as boiled beans) provide enough protein? Will it also increase IGF-1?

 

Im confused.

If there are vegan protein concentrates that dont increase IGF-1, what are they?

 

First of all, 1 gram of protein per lb of weight/d is way more protein than needed, and it will LIMIT your results because of insufficient stimulation of the hormone insulin, which is what is most important, because it pushes protein and fat into storage. Check my blog, especially the weight training + overfeeding study that compared an isocaloric diet higher in CHO or higher in PRO - the high CHO diet led to MORE muscle gain and LESS fat gain, because that's how metabolism works (see my blog for the info). The best muscle gain results in the literature comes from a pair of studies that used a 4300 kcal starch overfeeding diet (no exercise). Subjects ate about 91 grams of protein per day, yet they deposited 70 of those grams into storage because insulin was elevated so high from all the carbohydrates (yes that's 3/4 LB of LBM PER DAY - I encourage everyone to read the study themselves)! Don't get obsessed with protein, carbs are what determines the % of protein deposited, and going beyond 100 grams a day is not going to improve body recomposition as much as replacing those supra-100 grams of protein with carbs.

 

Second, as others have mentioned, most anti-soy studies are junk science, paid for by the competing meat/dairy industry. The evidence is clear that animal food and oils are what promote cancer (see my 1st blog post for some good links).

For example, the Japanese smoke a lot more than Americans, but they traditionally have much lower lung cancer rates and mortality (same thing is true for any population eating a plant-based diet). This is because their diet, until recently, has been low in animal foods and oil. Studies show a plant based diet is far more powerful than smoking. The body has a certain maximum healing potential, X. Eating a low-fat, no-oil vegan diet keeps X maximized. Eating animal foods and oil, lowers X a great deal, dose-dependently - so much so that a smoker eating a vegan diet has a much greater healing potential than a non-smoker eating the SAD diet. This is because our digestive tract is designed for whole plants, when we eat animal kcal and oil it causes a build up of metabolic waste products that must be removed (extra cholesterol, acidic animal proteins, lowered oxygenation of the blood, uric acid, etc.). Cancer is extremely rare when an organims eats a biologically appropriate diet - because millions of years of evolution have made the body extremely good at survival when evolutionary diet and activity level is simulated.

Second, as others have mentioned, most anti-soy studies are junk science, paid for by the competing meat/dairy industry.

I agree but that's not what the video is about. The claim is that isolated soy protein ups insulin growth factor level, which leads to growth of both normal and cancerous cells. This isn't the typical "soy makes men grow boobs" argument.

Second, as others have mentioned, most anti-soy studies are junk science, paid for by the competing meat/dairy industry.

I agree but that's not what the video is about. The claim is that isolated soy protein ups insulin growth factor level, which leads to growth of both normal and cancerous cells. This isn't the typical "soy makes men grow boobs" argument.

 

plus the guy speaking is mcdougall who is vegan and he trash talks dairy about three times in the video

First, I would like to point out that the study compared milk protein concentrate (skim milk, according to McDougall) to soy protein ISOLATE - I couldn't locate the study. Not a fair comparison when it could have compared soy milk to skim milk, but I digress. If we are going to compare products then the study should have chosen whey protein isolate. For a full picture, we need to compare the effects of all protein ISOLATES. Then compare them to whole foods. Keep in mind that protein isolates and manufactured amino acids are NOT food - they are a manufactured product and can act like drugs in our bodies. Additionally, they are not regulated products so you have to trust that you are purchasing what is on the label and that it was made in a clean facility with fair labor wages, etc., etc.

 

We know that isolating sugar (from cane, beets, corn, etc.) wrecks havoc with our bodies. Doing the same with grains (refined wheat, rice, etc.) and fats (corn oil, soy oil, coconut oil, olive oil, etc.) is also not healthy. Isolated vitamins have also been shown to be less healthy (or harmful, especially if synthetic or in high doses) than in their natural state, combined with food. Why should we think that isolating proteins and amino acids is any different? Certainly, our bodies can adapt to much of what we put in them, so I don't think that a little sugar, white flour, oil or soy protein isolate is going to hurt you by much. However, eating these foods on a daily basis and/or substituting them for whole foods may very well set you up for disease in the long run.

 

Protein isolates and isolated amino acids are new products. Humans have only been ingesting them for decades - which is a blip in human history. There are no long-term safety studies with these products so we're all test subjects if we choose to ingest them. I've used them in the past but am removing most of them from my diet. I see the point in supplementing with products such as creatine, but not replacing a meal with it. I also understand when I take a teaspoon of creatine that it is a supplement/drug, not a food, and that there may be risks and side effects.

 

In the end, it's your own choice whether or not to use manufactured isolates/amino acids. Just keep in mind that you seldom hear anything bad about them because they don't have to go through the same regulatory process (and safety tests) as other manufactured items that we ingest - because they don't claim "to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease," so can fall under the category of "supplement."

DV, I just love your posts!

I admit that this thing just scared the hell out of me right now (well, not too much, I'm only 17 lmao). I guess since I'm still growing, growth hormones aren't TOO much of a problem. Regardless, I'm thinking of ditching my soy/gemma protein.

 

Anyone know what I should eat after workouts?

For cutting?

Bulking?

 

Gerard

Try just eating whole foods and see if the results gets better or worse. For me I've been getting stronger in the gym even though I don't supplement (with AAs or Protein). What happens in the gym is a more important factor IMO.

Try just eating whole foods and see if the results gets better or worse. For me I've been getting stronger in the gym even though I don't supplement (with AAs or Protein). What happens in the gym is a more important factor IMO.

 

Agreed. I went off of protein supplements completely a couple of months ago and my gains have been just as good as before.

Ditto.

 

I'm currently bulking with whole foods (I do eat some seitan and tofu but nothing more refined than that) and I continue to add muscle.

I add IGF-1 to everything I make because it tastes so darn delicious!

 

 

To me it's rather obvious that what is good for bodybuilding isn't necessarily good for the body...

To me it's rather obvious that what is good for bodybuilding isn't necessarily good for the body...

Ex*freakin'*sactly!!!

To me it's rather obvious that what is good for bodybuilding isn't necessarily good for the body...

Ex*freakin'*sactly!!!

Yeah, personally I don't think it's good to train too hard, for the future. Extreme physical efforts, pushing the machine to the maximum on a regular basis and for a long period of time, allows to achieve optimum fitness for that period of time, but later you can pay the price. Like doing cardio always at maximum potential of what the heart permits, or eating huge colossal meals everyday in order to grow more muscles... It's like doing races with a car everyday, it's tires, engine and other "organs" won't last long and will need to be replaces faster than someone on a normal-active lifestyle. What's best for longevity on a very decent level of fitness is just staying active all life long with moderate regular exercise, like walking everyday, manual job, endurance at moderate intensity, not eating too much, etc. imho those are the secrets of a long life and to stay in good shape until almost the last days.