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DaN

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Everything posted by DaN

  1. It seems pretty obvious that the more processing our organs undertake, the faster they will wear out? Isn't this just basic logic and physics?
  2. I was moved by that video, because actually I dont ever watch them, because I know what goes on and it upsets me.But I forced myself to watch this, and I think others, especially meat eaters, should face the reality of their food choices.I will give this to anyone I come across who doesnt buy free-range pork.And that is alot of people! Thanks buddy
  3. It makes me sad that you cant see the difference between factory farming, and farming. http://cogtoronto.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/41366158_farm416afp.jpg http://www.hennet.org/images/suffering/Chickens_FreeRange.jpg For you guys to say it makes no difference, is like saying you cant see a difference between black, and grey.I mean this in the nicest possible way, so please dont take offense, but you need to open your eyes.My aim in life is to help animals as much as I can, and in any way I can.If I cant convince John Smith to stop eating chicken, but I can convince him to buy from free-range farms, rather than non free-range, then I am going to.You need to do this also, because while you are not, you are letting down the animals you claim to love.
  4. Jason - thanks for your reply It is sad that this type of farming is not possible due only to the financial aspect.Because guys like him are real farmers who do actually care for their animals in a weird kind of way.I would take them any day over these factory farmers, who are humanities worst, in my opinion.
  5. FormicaLinoleum wrote: As I explained in my post above, the desert island scenario is not hypothetical or impossible.It has only been possible to live as vegans for the last few centuries, for the other hundreds of thousands of years, veganism has been a hypothetical and impossible scenario.The only reason we can be vegans is due to our supermarkets - the increase in world food trade, which is highly irregular in context of the overall human state of civilisation.If this network and infrastructure were ever to break down, which it will, I am afraid our veganism would be virtually impossible in any part of the world.Your view on this subject I am afraid is totally the opposite way around.I am making this point to you because its only a matter of time before someone else does it to you in an argument, and I hate it when us vegans look bad in an argument!
  6. phil mate youre missing the point. I will restructure the options: 1.World full of animals in fields enjoying their life until point of death.A small number of vegetarians and vegans. 2.World full of animals in cages living miserable lives until point of death.A small number of vegetarians and vegans. Your option is not going to happen.We are still the huge minority.Whilst thousands of us go vegan, billions eat meat.The reality is, we will do more for animals by pushing free range and organic meat, than we ever will trying to pursuede people to go vegan.Of course we must still do that, but we must do BOTH.I have only turnt about 5 people vege in my life, but many many more to go free range.I do, and should feel good about both.
  7. Thanks veganessentials and others, your comments are interesting.My post was designed to throw up a line of thought that is rarely considered.As with all arguments people entrench themselves at the extremes of the argument, and that never solves much, in my opinion.I enjoy trying to find middle ways, and exposing people to the possibility that both sides are wrong. I think cows living in caring captivity could well be better than their wild life.Dont forget I am talking about leaving cows in their total wild stae, whilst providing only water if necesary.When they needed vetinary attention we could provide it, when we needed a bit of milk, they could provide it.I believe we could offer them something, and they could offer us something, a symbiotic relationship.When the cows died in their natural way, their meat and skin could be used, by those who wanted to. I must say, this idea that meat, eggs, dairy are poison is getting on my nerves a bit: Humans are omnivorous, capable of consuming both plant and animal products.[68] Varying with available food sources in regions of habitation, and also varying with cultural and religious norms, human groups have adopted a range of diets, from purely vegetarian to primarily carnivorous More importantly: Omnivores (from Latin: omnes all, everything; vorare(infinitive) to devour) are species that eat both plants and animals as their primary food source. They are opportunistic, general feeders not specifically adapted to eat and digest either meat or plant material exclusively The B-12 subject supports the fact that infact we are not supposed to live on only plant food, or indeed only meat.Hence the word omni. mollymormon wrote: Until around 10,000 years ago, eating meat and eggs aswell as plants was the only option available to us.And in the future it is likely we will return to a world where the infrastructure we enjoy now, does not exist.Its not a what if argument - its the majority reality. My opinion is that right now, in this very life, we can lead vegan lives, and so we should, but lets not lose sight of the fact that veganism is not our natural diet, and the current infrastructure we use to be able to be vegan is infact the most abnormal thing in our history.The supermarkets we frequent to buy our massive variety of plant food to survive are also abnormal. As with my last post, this is not meant to provoke emotions, please remember, I am a vegan! This post is intended to provoke thought, discussion and interest.
  8. Thanks for the replies guys.I have replied below.Please read this post, I think it could be something truly revolutionary and give me your feedback, but please be open minded, I dont want pre-programmed responses and emotions, I want genuine responses that deal with the facts.One other request, read it all the way through before thinking of reply.Replies you may think of from reading the first paragraph, I may have added to or explained at the end. What if: The chickens at said farm have come from breeders, there are no wild cows/chickens available at the moment (this could be changed), so it is the only option - at the moment.But once at said farm, they are utterly free to do what they want, and the males are kept, never killed.The eggs are free to hatch as per in nature, and only a very small number are taken for consumption (2 a day out of 30-40!) All the chickens are kept and loved for their full life expectancy, until natural death. As for the cows, again of course they originally come from breeder - for now.But as above, once they are at said farm, they lead totally free lives (in acres of land), with the choice to stay out or go in if its cold.The females are not forced to be inpregnated, they are mixed with male cows as per nature intended.Once pregnant, they are free to give birth and keep calves, the only difference from their wild state is that they are occasionally led into barn to be milked.As with the eggs the quantity is minimal to a level where the animal is unaffected.It would not be, I can honestly say, a bad experience for the cows, and i dont say this without experience, I have knowledge of farm animals from a young age and know distress and happiness when I see it. Is there really any tangible moral objections to this? I want you guys to be open minded, not tunnel vision vegans.This type of farming is completely unheard of but could be a template for all farming, that would undoubtably be better than current farming, which we all agree is totally unacceptable.I have realised that there is no way we will EVER get all people to go vegan, but we could get all people to do my suggestion, thus cutting out cruelty to animals. The dead animal thing - I find it interesting that no moral objection has been raised yet about this, the only point being made being the kind of icky eeurgh thats gross type comments , which frankly are silly because all the plants we eat are grown in poo, and the water we drink and bathe in is basically urine that was been treated.I am still yet to find a moral problem with the idea of eating an animal that has died naturally.Again I am going along this line of thought because I think that maybe if we allow animals to live free wild lives, then when they die, take the body, and make use of it (ie eat it) then no harm has been done in that situation at all - has it? I am not suggesting these ideas to us vegans because clearly we are educated enough to know we dont need meat to surive but instead it is for the billions of people who eat and will not give up meat, because at the moment, because of all these people, animals are suffering.I am trying to think of a way to solve this problem.It could be an option of the middle way, that stands a chance of bridging the gap and ending cruelty to animals which in the end should be more important to us than some moral or intellectual high ground.
  9. phil no offense, but you do not have a point if you havnt made one - you didnt explain yourself at all.I did.Tell me what you disagree with in my explanation? I'll break it down again: What is better? 1.World full of animals in fields enjoying their life until point of death. 2.World full of animals in cages living miserable lives until point of death.
  10. m8 how can i get the direct link for this post on you tube or can I just give link to here? I want to email this to people who ask me why they shoud buy free range meat.
  11. That is such good news.I have to say if there is one race/culture that I would confidently say is the best it would be the Indians.This is a country where between 40-80% are vegetarian.
  12. I didnt watch it cos I already saw this on a bbc program a year ago.It made me so fucking angry I actually cant describe it here.One of these days im going to run into someone who does something like this, and i think im going to end up killing them, and going to jail. Rage over
  13. I do see their point about the difference between ethically raised meat and battery raised meat. Ask yourself this: If someone is definately not going to ever stop eating meat, but are open to free range organic, wouldnt it be better they ate free range organic? Its an unarguable yes.I have turned a few people vege/vegan in my years as a decent human being, but where I have failed in some cases, I may have managed to get people to buy free range.Its like a silver prize, and I feel like I have chipped away a tiny percentage of the profits these factory farm scumbags make, and chipped away a tiny percentage of the animals in those factory farms.
  14. Ok so this is a diet related set of questions, so if in wrong place, moderator feel free to move it. 1. a.What is morally wrong with eating eggs from the farm across the road who feed their chickens totally natural diet, are free to roam ALL day, and live great lives. b.Also are there any arguments against the health benefits of eggs when eaten. 2. a.What is morally wrong with eating milk or cheese from the farm across the road who feed their cows totally natural diet, are free to roam ALL day, and live great lives. b.I know about the obvious arguments against dairy as a source of nutrirtion because quite clearly we are not meant to be eating or drinking it. 3.Does anyone have any moral objection to the idea of eating meat from an animal that has just died of natural causes? PLEASE NOTE I HAVE UNDERLINED THE WORD MORAL BECAUSE APART FROM THE EGSS, I WANT ONLY MORAL COMMENTS< NOT HEALTH ONES.
  15. I havnt listened to the link but dont need to.I come against total bullshit arguments constantly as a vegan.I would never let that push me back to eating meat - that will NEVER happen, but I have to say it makes my life really hard.Being a vegan is the largest handicap I have ever CHOSEN to give myself, mentally i mean, not physically.But at the end of the day its a way of life and I love animals often more than I love people. Eating enough protein on a vegan diet to bodybuild is very hard without supplement but then so is any body building, vegan or not.
  16. lol funny post. i would eat trees, they are severely under-rated
  17. To summarise, and I think I mentioned a similar thing in a previous post, science has machines and methods that can prove to us with amazing accuracy that wood when burnt makes fire, and that it leaves certain substances after it has burnt.It can proove that a long time ago dinosaurs walked the earth, because we have actually dug them up etc. But I think science and people often operate WAY above their station.They will discredit the idea of an 'afterlife' (for example) when science as a method, as a body of people, has no machine that can actually analyse this data.Despite this they feel qualified to make claims or statements about it, when I dont believe they should.Sure they can have an opinion, but to be so 100% devout in their opinion, and to be so openly critical of people who actually claim to have seen or be able to communicate with spirits in the afterlife, to me seems really rude, narrow minded and frankly, smacks of insecurity. Liberacion, I am not talking about you specifically, I am making a general pont about a vast body of people who actually think the way I have explained above.They know who they are.
  18. Hey liberacion. Some things which people (religious and otherwise) believe in and have experienced are past lives, angels, alternate dimensions, spirit mediums etc. Often these ideas are attacked because science has found no proof of them, but I would say that science does not have the tools to test these ideas properly, and as such should not pass any comment or judgement upon them. Example, past lives.Person 'A' says he/she is getting memories that they have not encountered during this life.These memories can be so strong, and obscure, perhaps even detailed, that the person believes they are remembering a past life.Exactly what tools can science bring to bear on such claims, in order to invalidate them? There are ways to indicate that this is truth or untruth, like asking them questions about the place they remember, their name, and when it was.These can then be analysed against actual historical records.This however is open to alot of interpretation, and does not really constitute proof or falseness, as this person may be recalling details from a film they saw as a child, or indeed be genuinely remembering things from a time of which we have no accurate records, which in truth, is any time in history, bear in mind even every occurance that happened yesterday has not been fully documented (for example I read a paper on the loo yesterday and NO ONE on earth can verify or disprove that) Surely then, without any real scientific way to prove or disprove this idea, it should be an idea that at the moment is 'unknown' This is a vital word for the point I am making.There are 'unknown' things in our existence which should be left as 'unknown' until they are proven or disproven.Unfortunately, insecure people need everything in their world to be proven, set in stone, known or they get panicky, insecure and threatened.They attack ferociously the idea, out of fear, and as a defense mechanism, because you are talking about something which cannot be proven or disproven.It is scary, unchartered territory for the scientific disciple.What they fail to realise is that all scientific fact began as an unknown idea, and for a long time there was no way of proving it.In the past various people have theorised the idea of what we today call atoms.But because there were no tools (scanning-tunneling electron microscopes) back then to prove it, and it was a scary unknown for the insecure people, the idea was rubbished as a load of crap.Just like what happens today with past lives.I am a great believer in them myself, due to my own personal experiences, and am 99% sure that at some time in our future, science will have created a tool (like the above example of atoms) that can actually prove the reality of many lives.
  19. I've got to say, everything you write I agree with, so its difficult to see the point of our conversation I agree, science is as ammoral as a car.It is a tool used by humans, and we are the ones who decide the outcome of that science or car.My problem is with the scientists, not the science. What I thought you were saying was that science is ammoral, ie: does not have to abide by ethics, which I felt was a poor attempt at justifying what scientists do. But I see your point is not about scientists, but about science as a tool for investigation, and I share that opinion.Thats why when people say to me that the internet is evil or bad, I always say, its as good or as bad as the person using it.
  20. Looks like we both agree on most points within this discussion.I am happy with that outcome. You wrote: Yup.This is my view, but I did not express it very well! My interest and 'defensivness' of religion is actually based on their philosophy, from which you can draw great wisdom.I agree that the unproven and apparently silly ideas about god, etc are totally unnecesary and its a shame because they distract people from seeing the true philosophical & ethical lessons that can be learned from most religions.Oh and just so you know my comments about making sweeping judgements were not specifically aimed at you, but at others who I know have very anti-religious/pro science views.The only major thing I think you are not grasping is the animal testing part of science, and saying it is an ethical problem, not a scientific one, and your comments about science being ammoral.Let me tell you, nothing is ammoral.Everything we do has an aspect of morality present.When the body of science as a whole accepts, condones or uses animals in its experiments it is representing the lack of morality present in the scientific community.As such, science involves itself in morals, and badly so.You cannot separate them.Its like saying I run a business that makes money from slave trading, but it is not a problem for the business, it is a problem of morals, and that my business is ammoral.Unfortunately this whole 'science is ammoral' thing is an bad attempt at justifying and separating itself from the reality of the harm inflicted on thousands of animals each year & it amazes me when vegans of all people do not realise this.
  21. Good work Zinz, after all your hard work, make sure you dont let yourself down and have to start again.You have the momentum, keep the power!
  22. Well you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned calories.You need to eat around 3000 a day, in my experience, and more if possible. Also, getting enough amino acids, through protein is vital.You can buy amino acid supplements if you want, but persoanlly I prefer eating real whole foods. Good meals are rice & mixed lentils, with some veg thrown in and perhaps some garlic bread.This meal is seriously high in calories and has all the ingredients needed.I eat alot of beans & potatoes too.Homous & bread is a great combo, for a snack - 2 slices of bread and half a tub of homous (100g) is over 500 calories.Find some ingredients you like in a shake, and add some protein powder to it.You can easily get 500+ calories from a shake.I recently had 500ml rice milk, 100 grams of porridge oats, 2 bananas & scoop of protein powder all in one. If you go to the diet section on here I think there are peoples things they eat too.
  23. Imagine all the good and bad in the world could be seen by their colour.For arguments sake lets say good is white, bad is black, and in the dead centre, is grey. Lets say you find a pair of glasses (weed) that hide the bad, and while you have those glasses on, you feel relaxed.What you dont realise is that the glasses are hiding other things too. The glasses (weed) hide both the black, and the white.So you live in a world full of grey - which seems ok! The longer you wear those glasses though, the more your eyes are used to looking at the grey, & when you remove the glasses, the white is too bright for them, so you look straight at the black.You do this without being conscious of it.Problem is, you are completely missing all the white in the world, to a degree that you doubt, or are completely unaware, that it is there at all.This is you right now. Because of this, you are tempted to put the glasses back on. The only way you can give your eyes long enough, to be able to look at the blinding white, is if you are not allowed to use the glasses anymore at all.Popping them back on is not an option.The longer you have those glasses off, the more your eyes flick over to the white spectrum, and eventually they begin to like the white side more (because truthfully, it is more attractive) Your eyes spend more and more time on the white until one day you realise that you only glance at the black occasionally.This takes a while, but it will happen. There does seem to be more bad in the world than good, in these times we live in.The future is bleak.But there is amazingly still a lot of good in the world.You have got to concentrate on that, you have got to move towards it, you have got to contribute to it.Seeing the end of the world as likely, may be an accurate prophecy.But if you fixate on it, you are siding with it, even if you dont realise.When you spread this to others, you are making that bad happen.You must look, & seek the good out, you must have hope (not in some gay religious way - but a real hope that you can help make positive changes) You must help others to be hopeful too.This is not easy.I dont say this to you like, "pah, you should be doing this because its that easy" Its not easy, infact its really, really hard.But its something we all need to practice & nurture. I hope this is of some help to you. Good on you bro, you are trying a good thing.Just be strong, keep yourself occupied with things that make you happy.Sometimes small things can make a huge difference.When I was young, I used to buy myself a box of mint chocolates that I really liked, and everyday I would eat them in the afternoon at work.Someone who I worked with for some time, came up to me one day while I sat there eating my mints & said to me "You are a content little person, arent you, everyday you sit there and eat those mints with a grin on your face" "Yes" I said, "I am" Those mints cost me £1.50 a day, but their value was priceless.For that 5 minutes, I would concentrate my whole being on the pleasure I got.My point is, find yourself some little things, that make you happy, that you can do everyday, or atleast every week.It can make massive changes.
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