VeganDeVil

bagingo

That's a new one!

of the right to terminate if the mother thinks that is the best option for whatever reason.

 

VegandeVil, I am wondering if you forgot to mention the fathers right, or if you dont believe he has any right?

Dan,

This is a tricky line to walk.... because of course a father should have a say in something he helped create. But something like this topic really does have to be discussed case by case, which the federal government can't oversee. They can't sit down with every unsure couple to discuss what everyone's rights are. There are too many scenarios.... people who are in relationships, but aren't sure it's forever, high school kids, even settled, married couples who know they want to have children but can't realistically afford to raise one just yet. My boyfriend and I can't wait to have children. But we're residing in a studio apartment in a bad neighborhood, living paycheck to paycheck. That's no situation to bring another life into. Our hope is to 'work towards' a child. Better jobs, better apartment, and some kind of savings account.

So, yes, a father should absolutely have a say, but it really is the kind of thing that has to be evaluated case by case. One would hope the father's voice would be heard. And further hope that if there is at least one parent who wants to raise the child, then the pregnancy would be carried through. But in the end, it is the mother who has to carry the baby for 9 long months and endure days of painful childbirth. Personally, I'm scared sh*tless of it!

Anyway, just my two cents. This is such a bitterly divisive topic, I think I'm done arguing it! I just don't understand when people in a democracy want to take away each other's rights based on their own personal views. If it's not something you believe in, don't do it. I don't believe in eating meat, so I don't. I don't believe in certain politics, so I vote the other way. If I don't follow such and such a religion, that doesn't mean I think NO one should go to that church. Democracy, people!

I agree with vegan4eva, ladies who aren't ready to have a baby should keep legs closed and men who are not ready to become fathers shouldn't fuck around.

Are you advocating a 'no sex until ready to parent' policy?

Are you then against condoms and birth control as well?

finaly inteligence is here how can you call yourself a vegan and support murder and slaughter you would all be furious if they were slaughtering pigles our calves by the millions yet you rejoice when people slaughter there own young. hypocrates. slaughter is never an option hitler killed 12 million innocent thanks to the suprem court america alone has supported the slaughter of 34 million innocent lives all for the sake of convenience. dont claim to be vegan if you support abortion those who do are just as guilty as the murdering hands of the docters that preform them. which makes me think kill an adult or a child you go to jail kill a child without cause and justify it suddenly your politicaly correct. now i understand some woman where rapped and thats there logic for it but evil dose not deserve evil rape is no excuse for abortion there are many familys who would die for children and yet you slaughter your no vegan if you support abortion. life is precious and you have no right to decide which life is wroth more.

STOP THE MADDNESS ABORTION MUST STOP

SUPPORT LIFE NOT DEATH

I do support life. I simply don't agree that the government has the right to indoctrinate childbirth. That is a personal matter, and it's awfully small minded of the government of a so-called 'democracy.' What's next... wire-tapping our phones? Oh wait...

I personally don't think I could ever have an abortion, it's not something I could ethically deal with. But I believe fervently in planned parenthood. In contraception, in educating young boys and girls about sexuality, and, ultimately, of the right to terminate if the mother thinks that is the best option for whatever reason.

I thought I'd post that bit about donating because I thought some fellow pro-choicers might find it to be an amusing, and pro-active way of fighting back.

My beliefs are my beliefs, and I live my life with compassion towards animals, the planet and my fellow beings. I don't appreciate the suggestion that my belief in an American's democratic right to do with their own body as they please takes away from my dedication to the Vegan movement.

If it's not something you believe in, don't do it. No one is asking you to.

that sounds like 'paper planes' by MIA. Is it?

A friend just forwarded this to me..... I love it. I just donated.

-------------------------------------

Subject: Fwd: a brilliant idea for $10

Instead of us all sending around more emails about

how horrible she is, let's all make a donation to Planned Parenthood.

In Sarah Palin's name.

And here's the good part: when you make a donation to PP in her

name, they'll send her a card telling her that the donation has

been made in her honor. Here's the link to the Planned

Parenthood website:

https://secure.ga0.org/02/pp10000_inhonor

You'll need to fill in the address to let PP know where to send

the "in Sarah Palin's honor" card. I suggest you use the address

for the McCain campaign headquarters, which is:

McCain for President

1235 S. Clark Street

1st Floor

Arlington , VA 22202

PS make sure you use that link above or choose the pulldown of

Donate--Honorary or Memorial Donations, not the regular "Donate

Online"

lol

I'm tired of hearing people on this thread complaining about BO. It's a gym what do you expect?:

Deodorant.

And self-awareness, as in 'Hey, I haven't been in a shower in 2 days, and I'd most likely smell in an enclosed space where I'm perspiring. That certainly might be overwhelming to the people around me, hence detracting from their own workout experience.'

I've had to cut my workouts short because I got stuck on a machine next to someone who smelled like their pits hadn't been washed in a week. Not pleasant, and really frustrating.

Love:

Getting in the zone.

Lots of machines.

Classes for the days I don't feel motivated enough to get a great workout on my own.

Hates:

Loud grunting

People on cellphones -- ESPECIALLY when they're on cardio machines. Like... really?

Perfume (piggybacking on the last comment)

BO

People who sing along to whatever is playing on their iPods. Man, that bugs me. I want to hear MY ipod, not your terrible voice.

Men who clearly are there just to oggle sweaty girls. Gross.

People who leave their sweat behind on the mats and machines. Double gross.

Well, why not save enough for 2 months rent and such, decide what city you'd like to experience for the next few years, find a temp. roomie on craig's list, go there, apply for coffee shop barista positions (definitely not too hard to find!!), and just MAKE your art! Post it on YouTube, start a blog, develop and nurture a fan base. In the meantime, you'll be happy, fit and makin' fancy coffees!!

Sounds easy enough to me......

Well, do you have some idea of what you want to do? What interests you, inspires you?

Booking a flight and splitting probably isn't the best idea if you don't have any savings.... but if you decide what path you want to pursue, at least for a time.... save enough to live on for a few months and GO! America has so many great places. Who do you want to be around? What energy do you want in your life? What would you DO if you knew you would succeed?

I understand the hesitation, though. I'm currently considering moving across the country and starting a new career, and it's nerve wracking!

But life is too short to be miserable. Decide, and go!

Well it sounds like you're not too far away from your goals, you should reach them in no time. Best of luck ta ya!

"large" amounts to me is when they suggest 300-400 grams per day. 150 is pretty basic need for a regular athlete I would think.

DAMN, that's a lot of protein.

Found this:

Consuming more protein won't make your muscles grow faster. Exercising your muscles is the only way to make them grow. If you consume more protein than you need for tissue repair and other body functions, the excess will be burned as fuel, stored, or expelled. None of these is highly desirable. Unlike carbohydrates and fat, protein is not an efficient form of body fuel. Your body has to expend more energy to break down protein because its structure is more complex. Protein that's not burned as fuel may be converted to fat and stored in adipose tissue (where it will make you fatter, not more muscular). Protein that's not used as fuel or stored in the body is eliminated, and that causes its own problems. Excess amino acids are converted into urea, a nitrogen-containing waste product that puts a strain on your kidneys.

here:

http://www.bodyandfitness.com/Information/Fitness/protein4.htm

Man, did I get off track. Some life craziness hit, and my visits to the gym ended while my consumption of food increased. The funny part is, I probably would have been less stressed overall if I had just kept my routine up, and not convinced myself that I was pushing my body too hard whilst dealing with life. Life will always be crazy, I can't use that as an excuse to make my health and fitness goals a lesser priority.

Starting again, starting anew. Here we go.

Am going to get 'The China Study' today. Enough people have recommended it to me now!!

Macs are so wonderful.... I grew up with PC's and can't count how many times I had to completely 'reboot' them due to viruses and such. I'll never go back!

(On the other hand... it is frustrating how incompatible certain things are with macs.... like consumer camcorders. But I feel like those issues are slowly being resolved. The idea that I can't plug a $1200 camera into final cut is ridiculous.)

In my internerd searches for information on how much protein a moderately active girl such as myself should be consuming, I came across the following article. I knew much of the information stated already, but found it to be very thorough and illuminating. I'll be sending this to any of my meat eating family members who bother me about 'nutrients I'm depriving myself of'.

But, as always, I appreciate commentary about the credibility of the sources of my reading. Not everything I've read about the health concerns in regards to dairy and meat has been true, I've found.

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PROTEIN—HOW MUCH IS RIGHT FOR YOU? by Dr. Robert Sniadach

Listen up!

There is protein in every living thing – Every organ, every tissue, every cell. That includes every plant as well –fruits, vegetables, nuts, legumes – all contain protein.

The human need for protein is roughly 20 to 40 grams a day. The RDA is set at 56 grams a day, doubling the real need for “safety” reasons.

There is voluminous evidence demonstrating the health-damaging effects of too much protein, especially from animal and dairy sources.

So where do you get your protein? Ah, yes, the question on everyone’s mind. It is amazing how much confusion there is on this subject. The better question is, ”Where do you not get protein?” As mentioned above, protein is everywhere around us. Every living thing is made of protein to some degree. Protein is by far the most widely discussed and publicized nutritional requirement of our body. The average American consumes over 100 grams of protein a day, three to five times as much as is necessary. We all know that protein is an essential nutrient, but what most of us have not been told is that excessive amounts of protein are hazardous to our health. The dangers of a high-protein diet are not commonly known by the general public because we have been fed more misinformation and propaganda about protein than any other category of nutrition. A combination of badly outdated animal experiments and self-serving indoctrination disguised as nutritional education has left most people badly misinformed about our body’s protein needs. Several generations of school children and doctors were taught incorrectly that we need meat, dairy and eggs for protein. The meat, dairy and egg industries funded this “nutritional education” back in the early 1900’s and it became U.S. government policy. It is easier to meet our minimum daily protein requirements than most people would imagine... with just fruits and vegetables. Because much of what experts once believed about protein has been proven incorrect, U.S. government recommendations on daily protein consumption have been reduced from 118 grams to 46 to 56 grams in the 1980’s to the present level of 25 to 35 grams. Many nutritionists now feel that 20 grams of protein a day is more than enough, and warn about the potential dangers of consistently consuming much more than this amount. The human body recycles 70 percent of its proteinaceous waste, and our body loses only about 23 grams of protein a day.

What happens if I eat too much protein? Protein is an extremely important nutrient, but when we get too much protein, or protein that we cannot digest, it causes health problems. The metabolism of proteins consumed in excess of the actual need leaves toxic residues of metabolic waste in tissues, causes autotoxemia, overacidity and nutritional deficiencies, accumulation of uric acid and purines in the tissues, intestinal putrefaction, and contributes to the development of many of our most common and serious diseases, such as arthritis, kidney damage, pyorrhea, schizophrenia, osteoporosis, arteriosclerosis, heart disease, and cancer. A high protein diet also causes premature aging and lowers life expectancy.

I’ve heard that “complete proteins” are best. Is that true? The need to consume foods or meals containing “complete protein” is based on an erroneous and out-dated myth. Due to lingering mis-information from a 1914 rat study, many people still believe they must eat animal products to obtain “complete protein.” And for other people, this fallacy was replaced by a second inaccurate theory that proper food combining is necessary to obtain “complete protein” from vegetables. Both of these theories have been unquestionably disproved.

What is the best kind of protein? By far the most usable and best assimilated protein is from plants. Protein is an essential part of our (living) body and there is a difference between protein that has been cooked and protein in its raw (living) form. One of the best-known studies of raw versus cooked foods with animals was a 10-year research project conducted by Dr. Francis M. Pottenger, using 900 cats. The results dramatically revealed the advantages of raw foods over a cooked diet. Cats that were fed raw, living food produced healthy kittens year after year with no ill health or pre-mature deaths. But cats fed the same food, only cooked,developed heart disease, cancer, kidney and thyroid disease, pneumonia, paralysis, loss of teeth, arthritis, birthing difficulties, diminished sexual interest, diarrhea, irritability, liver problems and osteoporosis (the same diseases common in our human cooked-food culture). The first generation of kittens from cats fed cooked food were sick and abnormal, the second generation were often born diseased or dead, and by the third generation, the mothers were sterile.

But I’ve been eating meat, eggs and dairy products for protein all along. Aren’t humans meat-eaters? Cooked meat is not a good source of protein. The reason cooked meat is not a good source of protein for humans is both because it is cooked and because it is meat. Actually, cooked meat is not a good source of protein for any animal (as laboratory tests have shown). And meat in any form is not good for humans. We do not have a digestive system designed to assimilate protein from flesh: We do not have the teeth of a carnivore nor the saliva. Our alkaline saliva is designed to digest complex carbohydrates from plant food, whereas saliva of a carnivore is so acidic that it can actually dissolve bones. Humans do not have the ability to deal with the cholesterol or uric acid from meat. The digestive tracts of carnivores are short, about three times the length of their torso, allowing quick elimination of decomposing and putrefying flesh. All herbivores have long intestines, 8 to 12 times the length of their torso, to provide a long transit time to digest and extract the nutrients from plant foods. And all protein ultimately comes from plants. The question is whether we get this protein directly from plants, or whether we try to get it secondhand from animals who have gotten it from plants.

But I thought that I get strength and energy from meat and protein? Eating meat—or protein in general—does not give you strength, energy or stamina. One of the easiest ways to dispel the theory that meat is required for strength is to look at the animal kingdom. It is herbivores such as cattle, oxen, horses and elephants that have been known for strength and endurance. What carnivore has ever had the strength or endurance to be used as a beast of burden? The strongest animal on earth, for its size, is the silver-back gorilla, which is three times the size of man, but has 30 times our strength. These gorillas “eat nothing but fruit and bamboo leaves and can turn your car over if they want to. It would be hard to argue anyone needs meat for strength. And protein does not give us energy. Protein is for building cells. Fuel for providing our cells with energy comes from the glucose and carbohydrates of fruits and vegetables.

As pointed out by John Robbins in Diet for a New America, many studies have shown that protein consumption is no higher during hard work and exercise than during rest. Robbins writes, “True, we need protein to replace enzymes, rebuild blood cells, grow hair, produce antibodies, and to fulfill certain other specific tasks... (But) study after study has found that protein combustion is no higher during exercise than under resting conditions. This is why (vegetarian) Dave Scott can set world records for the triathlon without consuming lots of protein. And why Sixto Linares can swim 4.8 miles, cycle 185 miles and run 52.4 miles in a single day without meat, dairy products, eggs, or any kind of protein supplement in his diet. The popular idea that we need extra protein if we are working hard turns out to be simply another part of the whole mythology of protein, the ‘beef gives us strength’ conditioning foisted upon us by those who profit from our meat habit.” The National Academy of Science says, “There is little evidence that muscular activity increases the need for protein.” A 1978 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association warns athletes against taking protein supplements, noting, “Athletes need the same amount of protein foods as non athletes. Protein does not increase strength. Indeed, it often takes greater energy to digest and metabolize the excess of protein.”

How about this brief list of some of the world’s greatest athletes, all holders of world records in their field, who happen to be vegetarians: Dave Scott, six-time winner of the Ironman Triathlon (and the only man two win it more than twice); Sixto Linares, world record holder in the 24-hour triathlon; Paavo Nurmi, 20 world records and nine Olympic medals in distance running; Robert Sweetgall, world’s premier ultra-distance walker; Murray Rose, world records in the 400 and 1500-meter freestyle; Estelle Gray and Cheryl Marek, world record in cross-country tandem cycling; Henry Aaron, all-time major league home run champion; Stan Price, world record holder in the bench press;

Andreas Cahling, Mr. International body building champion; Roy Hilligan, Mr. America body building champion; Ridgely Abele, eight national championships in karate; and Dan Millman, world champion gymnast... all vegetarians. Surely if world-class athletes don’t need extra protein, you don’t either.

In summary, practically everything we have been told about protein is wrong. We don’t need as much protein as we have been taught and consuming too much protein is hazardous to our health. We don’t need to eat “complete protein.” Our body needs protein from raw foods, because the building blocks for our living cells need to be living instead of dead. Cooked protein contains mutagens that are hazardous to our health, and some nutritional experts say cooked protein is impossible or very difficult to digest. Cooked meat is not a good source of protein. And protein has nothing to do with strength, energy or stamina.

But protein is important. And our best source of protein is from the same raw fruits and vegetables that provide all the other nutrients—vitamins, minerals, enzymes and carbohydrates—we need. The best way to get all these nutrients, including protein, is to eat a well balanced variety of fresh, raw fruits and vegetables. When you consider the health problems caused by consuming too much indigestible (cooked) protein, it should drive home the point that our body is a living organism made up of living cells, and protein composes 15 percent of our body, therefore the protein we take in should be living rather than dead. Consuming a high quantity of dead, cooked protein is similar to taking mega-doses of synthetic vitamins that we cannot assimilate. We would do better to focus on the quality, rather than quantity, of nutrients, and ensure that the protein (and other nutrients) we consume is in a natural, living form that our body can assimilate at the cellular level and use to build healthy new living cells.

Oh my gosh, I've been googling Jane Plant. She's wonderful - I'm looking forward to picking up her book. For anyone interested, I found this very inspiring: (an article written by her and passages from one of her books)

http://www.alkalizeforhealth.net/Lnotmilk6.htm

Marcina - thanks for the PDF. Above all, ethics!! It's hard to equate de-beaking and eventual slaughter with the ever friendly terms "free range" and "organic"

thank you so much, everyone!

Spirulina, piggyback on that one.

Although I noticed Spirulina in pill form at Whole Foods..... is that not as potent?? I can deal with a pill form of anything!

Of course! I had completely forgotten about Kucinich. Now THAT's a candidate I could truly support wholeheartedly.

Le sigh.

The 'eggs' issue I'm still curious about, though...

of course! Notmilk is one I've been meaning to go through, I'd completely forgotten about it. Thanks!

My mother has been wonderful in supporting my decision to give up animal products, and even listens to all the research I've done (in regards to my reasons to do so).

She is a full omnivore, but makes a true blue effort to buy local, organic dairy/egg/fish products (she doesn't eat red meat, and has a limited amount of poultry). She never buys anything that doesn't say 'organic', 'no hormones or antibiotics used', and 'free range', and has curiously asked why she or anyone should consider giving any of these up from a purely health perspective.

So, ethical reasons aside, what are the the health concerns I can talk to her about?

She's not supporting dairy farms where mastitis, pus, hormones, or antibiotics are in her milk.... the cows are not being forced to over produce so the quality of milk must be higher, no?

(And I know we're only talking health concerns here, but I have explained that the veal industry is an offset of the dairy industry.)

I've shown her pictures of 'free range' hen farms to show her that that doesn't mean much in terms of quality of life.... but again, health wise, she only buys eggs that have 'organic', 'free range', 'no hormones/pesticides/antibiotics' used. So, why would buying eggs necessarily be bad for her/anyone?

I'm curious about the answers to all these questions as well, if anyone has any insight or links to send me. Thanks!

Amy, have you seen this? This is how I introduced my mom to all this... and she was laughing! It sort of broke the ice a little. (although it's not pro-vegan, it's more anti-factory farming)