Duncan_Idaho

WB and good luck

Nature has given you the ability to skip meals for days

If you are worried that you'll overeat and divert all of your energy to digestion and thus

ruin your day, then eat some food, force yourself to stop eating, wait 20-30 minutes

doing something else in the meantime and, if you are still hungry, repeat;)

Welcome, Russian brother:)

I had the same results with fruitarianism - I felt better, more alert and energetic throughout the day, no bad breath, etc. I was amazed that I could recover very good with fruit after a heavy anaerobic workout. "The 80/10/10 diet" by Douglas Graham was what got me started.

I've had the same conversation. Not all herbivores in nature have their eyes on their sides. And vice versa, not all omni/carnivores have their eyes in front. Take the eagles for example. Most apes are herbivores and are very closely related to us humans. Im not sure about our teeth but it seems they are not very carnivorous. Our digestive system is not optimized to deal with meat either. It is optimized for fruit and nuts. Yes, our digestive system can deal with coal as well but this doesn't mean it's good to eat coal So the biology argument is in our favour.

Nice thread! I'd like to hear about more vegetarian references in music

Not really related to food but very much about animal welfare:

Edguy: Tomorrow

Duncan Idaho is a character from Frank Herbert's Dune novels. Quite the character since God Emperor of Dune.

What Dallas said and all kinds of nuts in general. Especially almonds and wallnuts Don't forget there is protein in every living cell - plant or not.

Zdravey Damiane, dobre doshal!

Robert, just jump on the plane!

What rawsomehealth said. I've tired the fruitarian diet, my diet is currently almost fruitarian (with one meal in a day or two which is not fruitarian due to financial reasons). It has worked and still works for me. I was able to lift heavy and the recovery was stunning. There are enough essential amino acids in fruit and vegetables. You just won't find them all in one source. But you are not going to consume only one type of food, are you? You can get methionine from nuts (almonds, peanuts, etc), tryptophan from sunflower seeds, leucine from peanuts, etc.

Penpen, allow me to disagree that humans do not live better in natural conditions - they actually do. An example are the Shuar in South America as well as other tribes. I doubt we can find many humans who live in natural conditions nowadays. We've twisted nature badly and the tentacles of our militarized society reach far.

Positive effects of the fruitarian diet: Good recovery, immediate and lasting energy, feeling light and agile, always ready for physical effort (including wrestling) without delay (as opposed to 30 or 60 mins after you have eaten), feeling more awake, cleaner teeth (and no bad breath), increased sex drive (that's in the positives when you are with your GF).

Negative effects: You pee more often (very often), increased sex drive (that's in the negatives when your GF is in another city).

Bottomline: Try the fruitarian diet for a month if you can afford it, you'll feel reborn!

If you want better information you'll find it in Douglas Graham's book "The 80/10/10 diet".

Good luck

Go for it, that's the only way:) Me and some friends are starting our own company too.

The young sumo wrestler asked the old sumo master:

- Master, you are so big? What is your secret?

- I never eat on an empty stomach. - answered the old sumo master.

Anyone of them vegan?

Some important things about abs:

1. Abdominal training is primarily flexion of the spine and not flexion of the hip joint. The flexion of the spine works the abdominal muscles and the flexion of the hip joint works the hip flexors on your thigh.

2. Half of your abdomen are the obliques. A good method to keep your abs clean is to train front abs one day and obliques the next day. Example: Monday - chest, triceps, shoulder, obliques; Tuesday - back, biceps, forearm, front abs; Wednesday - legs, obliques; etc. This will keep the area activated for a longer time - more blood there, better metabolism.

3. The only way to 'cut' your lower abs is to lift your legs.

The 'prayer' and lifting your legs are awesome exercises.

I got my abs out with 'truck crunches' (I don't know if this is the correct term, I got it from bodybulding.com). I didn't know why back then but now I know they give a really good spinal flexion:)

Supplements are not a panacea. Vitamin B12 deficiency is common among meat eaters and omnivores as well.

B12 is produced by bacteria. These bacteria live in the small intestine, in fermented food and in the soil. It is arguable whether we can utilize the B12 from within our bodies, therefore the meat eaters tell people to obtain it from the corpses of other creatures. What we're left with is the B12 in fermented food and in the soil. Pesticides and insecticides also kill the B12 producing bacteria in the soil. A hundred years ago people didn't wash their food so much and some B12 from the soil remnants on the vegetables (lettuce for example) got into their bodies and they lived happily. So if you eat vegetables and fruit grown in organically composted farms (without chemicals) there is a great chance B12 will get into your body. The dirt which accumulates around the stems of apples, apricots, pears, etc may very well contain B12 bacteria. My sources: Dr. Douglas Graham and Dr. McDougall.

This B12 topic is spreading insanely.

There is nothing wrong with being vegan, this is the natural way. Meat eating is wrong. Yes, it exists but cannibalism has existed as well.

I've been vegan for almost 3 years and I've taken no B12 supplements and I'm alive and kicking and in very good health. I'll be happy to post again that I haven't died from B12 deficiency after another year or two when I'll hopefully be a 100% raw eater. I eat mostly raw, fruitarian now but not 100% because fruit costs money and doesn't grow in winter.

I am posting this to show that people who don't take B12 supplements don't necessarily suffer a B12 deficiency. I bet I get enough B12 when I pick sour cherries from my granny's yard and eat them without even washing them. I don't know if most of you have the chance to have access to pure unprocessed organic food (sometimes wildly growing) as I do. People deserve to know the truth and not simply be given the pill. What 2097 says is very interesting as well. I've been listening to Lemuria by Therion all day, a mind blowing song:)

Dips and jogging.

I personally don't believe in censoring people. However, my recommendation is if you find there is something offending to you sending one of the moderators a message about it would be the way to go. Obviously RC and other who serve as moderators (myself included) have things going on and we don't have time to sit and read every post on here. For the most part my experience on these boards has been very positive and supportive. I've met wonderful people and hope to continue to do so in the future.

In my experience, you won't be able to lift heavy. You could do a lighter workout with more reps, to just activate the muscles and keep the blood flowing. And you'll be glad you did it:)

Keep posting these

Well, good luck with the experiment, 2097 I'd like to hear about the results. Also the long topic you posted on B12 is still on my todo list.

VeganEssentials, here's my thoughts on the B12 deficiency and why I don't like depending on supplements and why it will never 'catch' me.

By the way, I have always liked your posts (or the ones I can think of) and considered them to be independent and thoughtful opinions so I am glad we have the opportunity to discuss.

1. (A priori; cannot be scientifically proven; based on logic/observations/personal experience) I consider nature made us perfect. Nature made us vegans. Everything else is deviation from our natural environment. Carnivores exist, they have a place in this world, they are a part of the circle of life but we humans simply do not need to eat meat. Like pigs and many other animals, we have the opportunity to be omnivores but this is only a chance for us to survive in harsh conditions (scarcity of food). Harsh conditions are not our natural state of living but a deviation that humanity has been living in for the past several millenia (our perfect environment being something like Avatar).

2. As vegans and as beautiful beings we were designed to interact with our environment like all other beings. We have sight, taste, hearing, touch, etc - these are the guidelines that nature left us. When all these are in harmony, we also get what people call 'the 6th sense'.

3. When we deviate from our environment, we face the consequences.

4. B12 deficiency exists! B12 is produced by bacteria found in the small intestine and in the soil (among other places).

5. B12 deficiency is one of the natural consequences of us deviating from our natural environment. As Dr. Douglas Graham says, in nature we do not eat very clean food so B12 inevitably gets into our bodies. Also, in nature there are no pesticides and insecticides which kill the bacteria producing B12 in the soil. As Dr. McDougall (I think) said, B12 deficiency is the bad side of good hygiene.

6. Our bodies produce B12. Whether we can use it or not is debatable (Reading all the articles that 2097 posted is on my todo list. Thank you, 2097).

7. I interact with the environment a lot, for example I happen to eat wild berries from time to time (like, really wild ones, from the mountains) and I do not depend on the supermarket for food. Therefore I am confident I will not get any B12 deficiency (which I have not experienced so far).

8. B12 deficiency is common among meat eaters (omnivores) as well.

9. I am quite sure there are many other negative effects (may be not even diagnosed yet) associated with our deviation from our natural state. Therefore, as hard as it is, I try to keep as close as possible to this natural state. I am fully aware that I lack many things and I cannot care about them all but B12 is certainly not one of them (well a V6 still is ).

So, yes, if someone wants to be on the safe side and take supplements, sure! I myself am confident that I do not need them. Selling supplements is among my activities (Yeah, I do many things and they earn some money which allow me to practice the 80/10/10 from time to time) and I will say once again that I have learned not to underestimate the benefits associated with them and not to overestimate the scare associated with not taking them (i.e. that's an aftermarket paranoia which the supplement/pharmaceutical companies don't even cause directly. Just people fall for it and the companies don't mind it, except for swine flu hoaxes and the likes of them).

There's a natural explanation of everything. For example, I once wanted to increase my zinc consumption. Pumpkin seeds are very rich in zinc. However, most of the soil in Turkey and China is very poor in zinc. If I did not know that second part, I'd buy Turkish pumpkin seeds (because they are on the market), get no effect and then fall into a cognitive dissonance blaming who knows what.

The 80/10/10 diet gives a logical explanation of B12 deficiency and a good way of overwhelming it. If some people don't like it, good, it's a book, not something compulsory anyway. And critical thinking is a sign of free will anyway (assuming that free will is something good ).

lol, el_flaco:))

I'm guessing that both of you guys are at most in your early 20s,have not completed your educations yet and have not finished growing up on an intellectual level yet. In other words, I think you guys will grow out of it.

Almost got me there I'm in my late 20 and I have a master's degree in law If this was a brilliant trick to get personal information about me, touche I have other 'credentials' as well, closely related to the fitness field. Not that I'm hiding anything or that people's social 'achievements' matter. I like exchanging and discussing ideas by their virtue, not by the authority of who presented them. This is the beauty of a forum:)

Try Robert's book? "Vegan Bodybuilding and Fitness" by Robert Cheeke.

And as a rule of a thumb, as a personal trainer I could tell you to always work out when you have eaten and to always eat after a workout. That should do it. And well, if you want giant mass, as the old sumo master said to the young sumo wrestler "Never eat on an empty stomach"

Also, go for strength first, then mass (but that's just my opinion).

VeganEssentials, all you said can be applied to your opinion as well. The fact that some studies support something does not mean that it is an established fact. The Earth was flat before the 16th century and that was a fact you could not argue with. You cannot tolerate a high carb diet and no matter how convinced I am in its virtues I will not try to tell you that your body is wrong or that the way you take carbs is wrong. Maybe it simply doesn't work with you. I've read studies that soy is good and that soy is bad. Which ones are true? All scientific research is dependent on the circumstances under which it was conducted. Therefore most research on pubmed.org says 'Mice show such reactions when treated with XXX in YYY conditions". Science does not jump to generalized conclusions. Popular science does. So just lay out your facts and the people will draw conclusions from them.

Lol, 16 replies? Come on

I am a member of other forums and this one has been one of the nicest (may be the nicest) and you know it is a very civil one. Passion is necessary, passion is creative, passion is sometimes mistaken for bad attitude.

Try discussing the virtues of the diesel engine vs the gasoline engine in an Alfa Romeo forum:D

As to trying to police the the opinions of the people...I'll leave this without comments.

Why don't you get a copy of "Becoming Vegan" if you want to read a nutrition book? Raw"

As Erich Fromm wrote, the question is "why", not "why not". I've made the vegetarian-vegan transition relatively easy. The carnivore-vegetarian transition was even easier. The raw transition is a bit harder because all changes of eating habits require a lifestyle change and I eat mostly home grown food and currently I don't have the money to buy all the food I eat and we can't grow fruit on our farm at this time of the year. And I'm getting a V6 at all costs:) Apart from that I know exactly how to convert to raw food. I tried it this summer and it worked. Of course, I might read the books you recommended out of curiosity and out of reading passion if I happen to have time for it. Thanx for the tip! As to my post above, I do not think "The 80/10/10" diet qualifies as an urban myth, especially the arguments I've laid out. They can be easily checked.