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Everything posted by AllIveEverTouched

  1. Oh gosh there's just so much to respond to here and my simple answer isn't going to satisfy me.. I didn't say imprisonment was wrong (in fact I'd like to not even bring up that topic as I don't have a well formed opinion on it). I just don't agree with eye for an eye mentality, at least in this type of case. There are many many many reasons why this is the wrong mentality. For one, you don't know if among the people you are targeting there may be an innocent new employee or someone who is properly doing their job as humanely as possible. You don't know the circumstances until you are a first-hand witness to them and it is wrong to assume guilt on a body of people you don't know anything about. For another, any act of violence is not going to be positively attributed to the vegan community and in the long run may make it harder to get the general public to accept the idea of a vegan diet. When plants are shunned or shut down due to investigations and legislature people do listen and feel bad about what they see and this is the reaction required to get someone to think twice about what they eat. Lastly, violence strikes a chord among people and it comes back to you. If you perpetuate it, people working in other slaughterhouses may be angrier and take it out on more animals. There are too many factors to reasonably say it's okay to be violent to these people. I wholeheartedly have no sentiment for those actions. Self defense has nothing to do with this. Property destruction is not right for some of the reasons above, but also because you wouldn't want it to backfire on you and have someone destroying the offices of PETA and the Humane Society etc. What century do we live in? This doesn't make any sense. Humans can do the same thing for animals. There's no need for violence. Why would it ever have to come to that? Action is already being taken. I bet if a whole bunch of people beat the shit out of Vegans a lot of people would stop being Vegan. This tactic obviously worked very well for Hitler et al. Most people I meet don't even know what a vegan is unless they know a vegetarian who has a vegan friend. This is where I try to step in and show them that I shop where they shop, eat things they would enjoy eating, and generally try to show them how easy it can be to change. Obviously talking about how I hate the production of meat every single day would be abrasive and turn them away from anything I'd want to say. The idea is never to alienate the person you are trying to change. I absolutely detest the vegans that don't want to fit in with everyone else.
  2. I have a simple answer to this one. Two wrongs don't make a right.
  3. I don't think people who eat meat would make a connection to be honest. It's slightly obtuse - you don't normally see an entire cow carcass packaged after all. I don't really think it's very offensive, but of course it depends on who you ask.
  4. I happen to be king of the vegan psycho elitist asshats.
  5. I have nothing new to contribute. I'm getting bored of running in circles.
  6. Astrocat, I find you very ignorant to the mechanisms that provide sentience. And where is your "evidence" for bees being sentient derrived from? A website that cites books? Hmm... What I do find interesting is that though you don't refute the evidence in my case, you refute the source. Meanwhile, I could care less about the source of the evidence that bees are sentient because the evidence itself is not evidence at all. As anyone who knows anything about philosophy knows, you cannot prove a negative, so my ability to show you something that isn't there is limited. Fortunately for me, you haven't provided anything to show me that the ability for bees to feel pain is there. With your logic I may as well believe that bees control our minds. There is no such thing as "less cruel" when committing an act that is not cruel to begin with.
  7. In their lack of a system with which to feel pain. I have shown many links to sites with information and with a curious mind one could find much more information on the subject of bees, of pain, and of nervous systems. I don't really care what you find me, but ad hominem attacks don't debase the points I make, regardless. Yes, I am debating a stance, much like you are. So? That table is based on science. I made nothing up. No I have not read the books it references nor do I need to to understand the data collected from the books. My life's goal is not to prove to you that bees don't feel pain and as such I have no reason to read them. Have you read any books that "prove" that bees do feel pain? Would you care to share this sacred knowledge? "Although it is impossible to know the subjective experience of another animal with certainty, the balance of the evidence suggests that most invertebrates do not feel pain. The evidence is most robust for insects, and, for these animals, the consensus is that they do not feel pain." Richard: No one can decide your morals for you, that's all up to you.
  8. Who said that the information was put out to justify abuse? How do you know why these scientists did these studies? Please leave your fallacies out of this discussion.
  9. Who said I was pro-animal-exploitation? I'm not even "pro-bee-exploitation", I just could care less either way. This is just not true. Ridiculous. Possible? Sure. Accurate? Where? But there already is evidence to show that bees are not sentient. Perhaps you'd rather discuss compassion towards rocks or plants? Or perhaps farmed animals or humans? http://www.tolweb.org Actually, I addressed that site. There is no evidence there that indicates bees feel pain. None. To compare the nervous system of an insect with 3 ganglion for a brain to the nervous system of a human with a three tiered brain is just ridiculous. Do you understand how a nervous system works? Do you understand what pain is? Pain is not some hocus pocus magical "feeling", it is an observable, measurable scientific phenomenon and cannot be felt without the proper system in place to feel it. It's embarassing to see all these vegan websites using this one article as their basis for avoiding insects. Science is not convincing to you? What do you base your opinions on? Actually it's more like, "We will never be able to exerience life as a bee, but the evidence we have gathered obviously shows that they do not feel pain." Plants engage in social behavior. They also have defense mechanisms. This is known as survival. In locomotive animals many call it instinct. These things prove nothing. Bacteria do the same. (Link) In order to have a discussion about the exploitation of bees please educate yourself over: 1. What a bee is - especially the nervous system it contains. 2. What pain is. 3. The differences between a human nervous system and a bees nervous system. It's not very complicated. Just don't assume that evey living, moving creature on this earth is like you and you'll have an easier time learning about them.
  10. There's no risk involved when we have science to show that: 1. Bees do not have a nervous system capable of processing pain. 2. Bees do not exhibit behavior indicating pain. Invertebrates (which bees are) do not feel pain: http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/2/parlbus/commbus/senate/Com-e/lega-e/witn-e/shelly-e.htm http://www.hindu.com/seta/2005/03/03/stories/2005030301751500.htm http://www-phil.tamu.edu/~gary/awvar/lecture/pain.html
  11. I actually visit responsible shopper quite frequently and was already aware of this. I think it's an awesome site. Procter & Gamble have been making changes towards the way they treat animals and as a result I'd like to support the products they make that aren't tested on animals. "The Humane Society of the United States® (HSUS) and Procter & Gamble have issued a joint declaration announcing their commitment to working together to eliminate testing involving animals for consumer product safety. The announcement commemorates more than a decade of cooperation in the promotion of alternatives and animal welfare." http://www.pg.com/science/PG_Q1_06.pdf
  12. Actually, it's 30 steps in the evolutionary tree to go from Bee to human but only 18 to go from Bee to Tree, so no. Actually there's a lot of evidence to prove that babies are sentient so your situation makes no sense. Once again, we are talking about bees. Human babies have very evolved brains it is safe to say. Again, think bees. Bees are not humans. The link that you provided does not prove that bees have an endorphinic system. Though morphine is commonly used for pain relief in humans it works by shutting off receptors in the nervous system. In addition to releaving pain (in animals that can feel pain), it also depresses the respiratory system (Link). It is also important to note that drugs do not work the same on different animals. If this were the case then animal experimentation would have greater standing. Also, what does the likelyhood to sting have to do with anger, and what does anger have to do with pain? We were not discussing fish. We were discussing bees. Please cite a study that proves bees display physical symptoms of pain. Astrocat: Please leave philisophical garbage out of a scientific discussion. No one reads minds and it is ridiculous to claim to know what people believe.
  13. I am not speaking about people. All people lacking mental capacity have experienced mental capacity previous to their state. I have never once heard of a baby that went into such a state before ever experiencing life consciously. People are not the same as bees. I will gladly "exploit" a fruit tree and eat it's contents as I will "exploit" it's seeds and plant another. There is a very large gap between a bee and a human being and it is completely ignorant to equate the two.
  14. Thank you Kathryn for that article and I will use the end of it to respond to endcruelty and Atilla. Though I had read the wikipedia information already, I had formed the same opinion as this person: As far as giving the benefit of the doubt, I see no reason to. We have scientific criteria that determines what can and cannot possess consciousness and feelings. If we didn't then we would all be careful about how we treat rocks and trees and give them the benefit of the doubt also. Insects behave like complicated robots and it's a marvel to understand why, but it's silly to equate their mental capacity with ours.
  15. Gillette and Oral B are currently on a moratorium with regard to animal testing. http://www.caringconsumer.com/pdfs/companiesDoTest.doc
  16. No, but I'm pretty sure that consciousness, thought, decision making, emotion and pain can all be tied to processes within an evolved brain; something that a bee lacks. Behavior is an observable phenomenon and doesn't require dissection. If it did psychology would be responsible for many more deaths.
  17. A person that is brain dead once had consciousness. A bee is more like a large flying bacteria. I can't find any information on fight-or-flight response in bees - please show me that they exhibit this behavior.
  18. I have no problem with how insects are treated because I don't believe their nervous systems are developed enough to feel pain. A description of the basics of the nervous system of an insect are here: http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/course/ent425/tutorial/nerves.html Just because it moves, that doesn't mean it has a processing center like ours.
  19. Do most people think like that? I honestly don't know.
  20. Well that's why I think it would be better portrayed as simply what it is and not a mockery. I think the condescending tone would turn me off personally if I ate meat and I would stop half way through and do something else. That's not to say it won't get people to question themselves, I just think it would reach more people without the condescention.
  21. Grass is spelled wong in the first picture. I actually don't like the sarcastic remarks and think it would be more effective with a more sterile description of what is going on. I applaud your effort though.
  22. I've noticed a lot of people with well formed, full muscles take supplements. I was wondering if this is necessary and what it is about the supplements that helps so much.
  23. I've heard one too many stories of youth abusing animals like this and every time it seriously disturbs me. I can't in any way empathize with this kind of behavior. I actually believe that the type of people that do empathize with this are a large part of the majority of problems on Earth at the moment. I'm still unsure of what do to about it...
  24. The running of the nudes is a peta campaign... http://www.runningofthenudes.com/
  25. Gosh I've considered it but I want to conquer the challenge of living here. Sometimes I wonder if I ever will lol
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