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Everything posted by compassionategirl

  1. How far is Richmond for Portsmouth?
  2. I agree College B - Rob is such a hardcore vegan yet is so welcoming and nurturing of everybody that is maybe less hardcore than himself. That attitude really wins people over I think, which is exactly what we want for the animals' sake, right? When I first found Rob, I was ovo-lacto veg. It was his nurturing compassion and positivism that really sealed my vegan fate. He never made me feel like shit for being a "mere vegetarian" and encouraged me to go all the way in such a positive way. And look at me now! Have come such a long way from the egg and dairy days!!! Thanks Rob!! Although, having said that, I also agree, as does College B, that we need hardliners too. I draw inspiration from both the softer vegans and the hardliners too. But that thing College B quoted is so true - the animals dont need us to be "right". They need us to be effective. Editted to add that I think Will also approvingly quoted from the same newsletter in another post! Peace
  3. one last quote from the book: "Of course the slaughtered animals lost all control of their bladders and kidneys. The smells, the frenziesd of the dying creatures, and the endless buckets of blood thrown on the altar in the name of God, make it obvious that this ritual of terror and violence was the worship of an idol. This god-of-the-slaughter was created by humans in their own, fallen image...Hundreds of years later, Jesus Christ, who began his ministry claiming to be the fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy (Luke 4:16-20) took action against that system." "...can ye not discern the signs of the times?" (Matt. 16:3).
  4. Actually, in Genesis, both people AND animals were vegan. The only thing that all animals, including humans, were given permission to eat was plant based foods. This is what Hyland says on that issue: "The nonviolent nature of all earth's inhabitants is further delineated in the biblical report of God's plan for the sustenance of all creatures. Food was provided only from the bounty of the earth; no creature was to feed on another: "Then God said [to the man and the woman], "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be for your food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the air and all the creatures that move on the ground - everything that has breath of life in it - I will give every green plant for food." And it was so, God saw all that He had made and it was very good." (Gen. 1:29-31 NIV). There is no information regarding the amount of time it took for this idyllic existence to end, but the third chapter of Genesis reports a degeneration that has already taken place. The man and woman have chosen to partake of evil. Once they had chosen evil, the degeneration of Adam and Eve reached the point where they were no longer able to respect or abide by the rules of a paradisiacal existence. Consequently, they had to leave Eden. Their new environment reflected their regressive behaviour. And because humans were their care-takers, the animals reflected their their fall from a higher estate. In our age of ecological concern, it is easier to understand how the negative behaviour of human beings adversely affected the life around them. It reached the point that the very earth was cursed. (See Gen. 3:17-19). No longer would the lush bounty of the earth automatically provide for Adam and Eve with nourishment, and the animals would share the human fate of having to labour and forage for their food. Together they had enjoyed an Edenic existence; together they had deteriorated from their higher estate. Instead of the balance of nature that had originally provided food for all creatures from the bounty of the earth, there was now a debased system in which every creature could be prey of another. And the scriptural prophecy that animals would come to "fear and dread" human beings also came true for other humans. People would prey upon their own species; the powerful would consume the lives and substance of the less powerful - human or non. The vision of the latter prophets - of a time when the lion wil lie down with the lamb and all earth's creatures will live in peace with each other - seems an impossible dream. It seems impossible because human beings have chosen to believe that both animals and people are violent by nature. Since this is held to be a self-evident truth, any information that casts doubt on its credibility is rejected. So the creed remains in tact. This view of a world in the process of evolving from barbarism to civilization can be a comforting one. No matter how badly people or societies may behave, they have come a long way from their primitive beginnings. Patience must be exhibited with homo sapiens: evolving from barbarism is no easy task. or so it is believed. The dogma is different for animals. It is generally believed that they are biologically doomed to violence, that their genes are somehow permanently programmed for killing. This system of belief conveniently overlooks the facts of conditioning and adaptation. It dismisses the possibility that having become conditioned to violence, some species eventually adapted to such behaviour. The biblical view of natural histroy contradicts the theory that the human race has evolved over long periods of time to its present, higher development. In fact, the Bible tells a story of regression, not progression. The Book of Genesis reports that animals and humns were created with a nonviolent nature, that goodness was their innate characteristic. Genesis tells the story of creatures whose natural condition is one of peaceful coexistence with their own species and with all other species. And although all have fallen from a higher state, their innate goodness - their nonviolent nature - remains waiting to be reactivated. Even though they have adapted to a violent lifestyle, both aniamls and humans can readapt to their original peaceful natures. It is on this foundational truth that the millenial vision of the Latter Prophets was based. IT was this truth that undergirded their vision of a time when, once again, humans and nonhumans would live together peaceably, in a peaceable world. IT would be a world free from the suffering and fear that the earth's creatures have unleashed upon themselves. When people return to their Edenic natures, the animals will follow. " I was surprised and hopeful after having read the above work of Hyland that somebody could actually see and believe that even animals can live peaceably among each other. Talk about a work that inspires hope for a peaceable kingdom indeed!!! I am really glad I read her book. It really made me see things in a whole new light. And, it saved my religion! Although, Michael, the last question that you raise in your quote above is I think a mystery to most people. It is that age old question: WHY does God let bad things happen to Good people and innocent animals? Surely he has the pwoer to intervene and stop it. I dont know why. I dont know why God allows children to die of starvation, dont know why he allows billions of animals to be sadistically tortured and killed every year. C.S. Lewis in his book "The Problem of Pain" even gave "animal pain" a whole chapter and basically argued that people are supposed to be improved somehow by the pain. But animals, he asserts, do not deserve the pain, nor are they improved by the pain, which makes ANIMAL pain an especially vexing mystery. Very interesting stuff all of this. peace
  5. This is just a cross reference to anybody intrigued by this topic . This question is directly addressed in my post in the "WOuld God be vegan" thread. If you think that God was pleased by death and blood of animals, you may want to read that post where I talk about J.R. Hyland's book "God's Covenant with Animals". But the short answer is God was NOT PLEASED by animal sacrifices in his name!!!
  6. Hi Jonathan, But, if your read the long post above, you will see that what Hyland is trying to say (and with which I agree) that it is symptomatic of a DISTORTED, PERVERTED AND MISGUIDED Christain culture. You have religious leaders walking around in leather, you have them hunting, you have them eating animals, etc. And they all think that it is okay to do all this, and that all this exploitation is somehow "acceptable to God" or sanctioned by the Bible. But is isnt. Animal exploitation is something that people do for themselves, NOT for God because God clearly indicates in Genesis that there will be no consumption of animals, no exploitation, no suffering, etc. The garden of Eden was the ultimate vegan period in history - and that is what we should all be striving for. Even animals were all vegetarians in the Garden of Eden. No body exploited the other. WE and teh animals were only given permission in Eden to eat PLANT foods, not each other! Today's mainstream Chrisitianity has it wrong - it has misinterpreted and distorted biblical teachings so that it may continue the modern equivalent of sacrifical worship. The power structures that had a vested interest in distorting God's true message in Genesis in the biblical days are alive and kicking today. I think the hopeful message in the book for disillusioned Christians is that God would be vegan and so should we all, if we are to truly honour God and do "on earth as it is in heaven." It shows us that mainstream Christianity today has TOTALLY strayed from the vegan path of Genesis - the ONLY time in Biblical history that God described the state of affairs as "very good." SO bascially, dont give up on God because selfish and misguided Christians have gotten the Biblical message wrong!!! i think is what I get out of this book. And that is great news for me because I dont want to lose my religion. Without faith, life is much more difficult for me.
  7. You got it College B!! Jesus tried to dismantle the system of animal sacrifice (which I refer to in the above post as sacrifical religion). IN fact, the only reported time that Christ got angry and confrontational was when he took direct action to free the animals and stopped the sacrifices that were about to be held at the temple! if you read my post above, you will see that that is exactly what Hyland argues - that the LAtter Prophets and Christ himself came along and said told everybody basically that they had gotten it wrong, that God did NOT take pleasure in the slaugherter of innocent creatures, and that this was a self-serving "ritual" insitituted by humans - not demanded by God!!!!!!!! I really hope many of you read Hyland's book - it is truly a must read for any spiritual person who is vegan, and maybe even for a nonspiritual vegan because it will arm them with knolwedge that they can use to set misguided Christains straight if and when necessary.
  8. Hi my friends, I have felt like i was "losing my religion" ever since i first went veg. That is because I was surrounded by Christians - good, decent people who were practicing and spiritual Christians, or so they thought - who kept insisting that God would NOT be vegan, and would be indifferent to veganism. I just could not reconcile that in my head with the principles of compassion, mercy and empathy that Christianity (and indeed many other religions) supposedly teach. SO I thought to myself for a while that maybe I dont believe in the same God that Christians believe in. But, I do believe in God and the Holy Spirit so this tormented my soul for a long time. I did some research, and I came across several books on the subject that made me realize that once again, it is PEOPLE that messed it up and got it wrong. God never asked for sacrifice or wanted sacrifice. This was something that humans started because, once again, it suited their purposes and their tastebuds. I have read a book called "God's Covenant with Animals: A Biblical Basis for the Humane Treatment of All Creatures" by J.R. Hyland, and it really helped me reconcile God and compassion for all life. It taught me a lot about my own religion that I did not know. We as Christians have been taught a messed up version of the Bible and this book, among a couple of others, have really cast biblical teachings in a whole new light, and I think the CORRECT light - because what Hyland says is the only thing that makes sense, if we believe that God is the ultimate caring, merciful and compassionate spirit. I have taken the time to quote some of the stuff at length below, because I think that maybe many Christians on this board have also struggled with trying to reconcile their veganism with traditional biblical teachings, and maybe others too have "lost their religion" in the face of these teachings. All I know is that after reading some literature on Christianity and vegetarianism, I feel stronger in my faith and I have a better understanding of God and the Scriptures, but that is just my own personal thoughts in case anybody is interested. Here are some things that Hyland argues. Note that this is a LONG post so you may choose not read it of course, if you are not interested in the topic of this thread. BUT if you want to join this discussion then I ask you to please read it so you are on the same page as everybody else on this thread and know what people are referring to and talking about in their responses. It is really an interesting read and a MUST read for anybody that is sick and tired of people using religion to hinder animals rights causes!!!!: "Progressive revelation is a concept accepted by theologians of diverse backgrounds and loyalties. It has to do with the belief that although God's self-revelation does not change, the human capacity to receive that revelation does change. It grows and develops as people progress in their ability to understand who God is and what constitutes right relationship to the Creator. This progressive understanding led to the repudiation of human sacrifices...And in the time of the Latter Prophets of Israel, the concept of social justice as a measure of righteousness and conformity with the will of God came to the fore. Prophets like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Micah and Amos told their people that the true worship of God manifested itself in the just and compassionate treatment of the helpless and powerless, not in ceremonial or sacrificial rituals. The revelation given by those prophets also concerned mankind's relationship to animal life. The abuse of animals - like the oppression of human beings - is opposed to the way of life that God has ordained. And although the world has fallen far short of the standards given by God, the Prophetic Age signaled that it was time for the human race to remember its beginnings. It was time to try to live the kind of life that God had ordained at Creation. Through the prophets, God called the people to "beat their swords into plowshares" (Isa. 2:4) and promised a better world if they did not "oppress the alien, the orphan or the widow." (Jer.. 7:6). A world of justice and nonviolence was also the world that did not abuse animals in the name of their Creator. There was to be no more sacrifice of animals on the altars of God: "I have no pleasure in the blood of lambs and goats...Take your evil deeds out of my sight." (Isa. 1:11,16). The advent of the Prophetic Age in Israel marked a milestone in the spiritual journey of the people of God. There was a breakthrough in consciousness and a call to justice. mercy, and compassion that still sounds in our own day. But today - as in biblical times - there is still an adamant refusal to follow that call. There is still a reactionary effort to make the worship of God a thing of ceremony and ritual rather than a matter of compassionate treatment for all creatures. But there are those who struggle to build a world of peace, justice and compassion for all forms of life. They try to walk in the light that the Spirit shines into our darkness. That Spirit continually seeks to lead the human race out of the violence and selfishness that made a hell out of paradise that God had prepared for all creatures." "The Latter Prophets [whose teachings are largely ignored by mainstream Christian leaders] affirmed the primary importance of social justice, and rejected ceremonial and sacrificial religion. They also taught that homo sapiens is not the end-all or be-all of God's creation - that, in fact, the animal kingdom is an integral part of the Kingdom to come. It would be a peaceable kingdom where "they shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of knowledge of the Lord." (Isa. 11:19)." "The understanding that the suffering and death of animals was repugnant to the Creator had surfaced among the Hebrews beginning with Isaiah in 750 B.C., the Latter Prophets also condemned animal sacrifice. In doing so, these prophets were reiterating the ancient knowledge found in Genesis: Animals were created in love and goodness, just as human beings had been. And humans were ordained to be the loving caretakers of animals, not their cruel abusers or exploiters. The warnings against sacrificial religion of these Prophets coexisted with a priestly power structure that was still developing complex rituals for slaughter. These priests were not going to accept any teaching that repudiated the animal sacrifice that was the cornerstone of their power." "By the time Isaiah began his prophetic ministry, slaughtering animals in the name of God had assumed the nature of an additional commandment in the eyes of the people. But Isaiah, and those who followed him, called the people back from their violent worship. The Lord had never asked for the slaughter of His own creatures: It was Man himself who had instituted sacrificial worship." The Prophets also tried to re-establish the teaching contained in the book of beginnings - the book of Genesis. Genesis taught that animals, like human beings, were created by God; that God had concern for their welfare, just as He had concern for human welfare. The prophecies of men like Isaiah, Micah, and Amos reiterated that the sacrifice of animals was an abomination in the sight of God, an unholy practice that demanded repentance. Isaiah was the first era to prophesy against sacrificial cult: "The multitude of your sacrifices - what are they to me? says the Lord...I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats...Your hands are full of blood; wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight. Cease to do evil. Learn to do good; seek justice; reprove the ruthless..." (Isa. 1:11, 15-15 NIV). Jeremiah, AMos and Hosea were equally vocal about the evils of animal sacrifice. They all spoke out in the name of God against the killing taking place on the altars: "For Ephraim in his sin has multiplied altars, altars have become his sin. Though they sacrifice flesh offerings to em and eat them, I the Lord will not accept them. Their guilt will be remembered and their sins punished. They shall go back to Egypt..." (Hos. 8:11 - 13 NEB). They would "go back to Egypt " because, when they lived in captivity there, the sacrificial cult was not yet established in Hebrew tradition. The prophet knew his people had to go back in their understanding to a time when they had not been conditioned to accept animal sacrifice as a necessary part of their worship." Speaking in the name of the Lord, Amos forcefully declared: "I hate and despise your feasts, I take no pleasure in your solemn festivals. When you offer me holocausts, I reject your oblations, and refuse to look at your sacrifices of fattened cattle...but let justice flow like water, and integrity like an unfailing stream. Did you bring me sacrifice and oblation in the wilderness for all those forty years, House of Israel? " (Amos 5:21-22, 24-25 JB). Contrary to what the corrupt priests in power conditioned people to think at that time, God was NOT pleased by a worship in which His creatures were dragged, in a frenzy, to be slaughtered in His name! Not only did the prophets point out that sacrifices and ceremonies were man-made substitutes for the true worship of God, they also faced their people with the fact that the violence done to sacrificial animals was reflected in the violence that human beings were willing to inflict in each other. The Latter Prophets frequently linked a world of peace and prosperity with a world where animals, as well as human beings, would be free from exploitation - world where all could live their lives in security and peace. The Prophet Micah also spoke of a time when people will act in away that truly conforms to the way God would have things done (see Mic. 4:2-4, NAS). The words of these Prophets spoke to Judaism's deepest roots. These men of God had not introduced new concepts into Israel; they had re-introduced themes that went back to the very beginning - back to the time of Genesis, which was the only time in Biblical history that God ever described things as "very good."! Their great prophecy was a sign that it was time for the human race to recover its spiritual heritage. Speaking in the name of God, the prophets let people know that it was time for the world to once again reflect the qualities that God had ordained at the Creation - love, compassion and mercy for all creatures." The system of distribution of the dead animals exposes sacrificial religion as an obvious pretext for satisfying an unlawful lust for flesh: God got the suet and intestines while the people kept the most desirable body parts for themselves. Jesus Christ himself also repeatedly referred to Hosea’s oracle, “I will have mercy, not sacrifice, knowledge of God, not holocausts.” The leaders of the time knew of Jesus Christ’s attempts to dismantle the sacrificial system – an action that ensured his death. It was the slaughter of animals, in the name of God, that led Jesus to the only aggressive confrontation reported of his ministry. That confrontation took place at the Jerusalem Temple where Christ took direct action against the evils of sacrifice. He freed those animals who were about to be slaughtered and disrupted the entire procedure that surrounded the sacrificial rules. (See John 2:13-16 NIV). Although the Bible has a great deal to say about God’s concern for animals, for the most part this subject is ignored. The human bias that sees its own species as having preeminence – dominion – over all other creatures has distorted the biblical message. Those who want to exercise ruthless dominion over animals believe that God overlooks the most sadistic and cruel treatment of sentient beings, as long as they do not have a soul. Hence, the centuries – long determination to obscure the biblical news that animals, too, are living souls. In misrepresenting the Scriptures, the biblical exegetes and other scholars encourage the sinfulness of those who want to relegate nonhumans to the category of soulless “things” in order to continue exploiting them. Unfortunately, the spirit of the Pharisees is alive and well today among those ministers who do not challenge the wearing of fur (for example) , and among church members who would never miss a Sunday service but have no qualms about praising God with outstretched arms that are covered with the remains of His dead animals. And the last few things that I will quote from this amazing and revolutionary and reveletionary book by Hyland is this: The Scriptures say: “They did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness…They changed the truth of God into a lie.” (2 Thess. 2:12, Rom. 1:25). Still, until this very day, Christians refuse to believe the Truth and instead distort God's message, and project onto God their own selfish desires. And that is what I believe too, and because of “them”, I almost lost my religion and my faith in God as a compassionate, kind and merciful spirit. Thank goodness there are theologians out there that have challenged our traditional interpretations of the scriptures! Hyland concludes with this insightful comment: We have increasingly hidden the slaughterhouse, and its victims, from sight. Very few persons have any direct experience of the violence and brutality that is inflicted on animals in order to satisfy a meat desiring population. Additionally, the steaks, chops, etc. that are consumed show little resemblance to the creature who had to be killed in order to obtain them. Rarely does the whole carcass of an animal appear on the plate. But even when it does, there is still a religious mechanism in place to help overcome any feelings of guilt. A blessing is pronounced over the meal: God is thanked for providing the dead animal. To thank God for the fruits of the earth, given to human beings for their sustenance is a legitimate religious act. But to thank the Lord for providing the flesh of an animal is not legitimate. The eating of flesh is a perversion of God’s law, indulged by a fallen human race. And to thank God for providing such food is the modern equivalent of sacrificial religion; it represents a continuing determination to claim God’s blessing on the slaughter, and consumption, of His creatures. She has so much more to say about so many specific things, like Abraham’s sacrificing of a ram instead of his son, hunting, vivisecting, etc. and she makes strong arguments against the “Christianness” of all these kinds of animal exploitation. If any of you are interested in reading more, it is a short book and the title and author were noted at the outset. Peace everybody, nat
  9. I love the way you put that Ash - that is exactly it!!! feigned ignorrance!!
  10. hey college B!! No problem. by the way that was [email protected] - sorry about the typo there, but evrybody knows i suck at typing and dont always have the patience to proof read! anywa, another interesting thing about the Humane Slaughter Act is that not only does it exclude chickens, and fish, etc. but even the animals that it does supposedly protect, it is still a useless piece of legilstaion because it is RARELY enforced by the USDA. And thus, it really doesnt protect any animals. you can call the USDA tro inquire about how many charges they have laid under that staute, to prove that it is hardly enforced, and like I said, peta will email you all kinds of info for free! peta is a great resource, and no matter what mistakes it makes, this is one of its best attributes! good luck and keep us posted college b!
  11. hey College B! I totally agree with you, adn thanks for posting that link. I am gonna check it out tomorrow. Actually I think I too will state my basic feeling on this and then explain it more tomorrow cuz its like 2:30 am right now and I gotta get up in 4 hours . But I couldnt fall asleep without stating at least one thing immediately. But let me preface this by saying that I have only read parts of the Bible - never the entire thing from front to back every page. But you know what? I dont think you need a degree in theology to realize this elementary fact: God and Jesus, being the most empathetic, compassionate, kind and merciful spirits, would show mercy and kindness to innocent beings. You dont need a doctorate or a masters degree to realize that - you dont even have to read the whole bible to know that God is about love and kindess and mercy. It is so simple and plain a truth. I agree with you, as you will notice from the thread "where is DanDz" in the introduction section. There I stated all that you correctly point out. The Garden of Eden - God's ideal and original vision for us all - was vegan. In other words, that is what God originally wanted and intended for us to be. But many Christians conveniently underemphasize this, or worse, ignore it altogether. What they focus on instead is the concessions God made AFTER the "fall" of mankind. But why focus on the concession instead of the ideal, especially when the "ideal" is so much healthier and kinder? genesis and the garden of eden was the most peaceful time in the history of all creation. When we pray "... shall be done on earth as it is in heaven" and then proceed to chew on dead animals, we are lying to God everytime we say that. How can we say shall be done on earth as it is in heaven and then eat tortured animals? As if animals would be tortured and eaten in heaven? I think not!!! Let us not project our own weaknesses and flaws on God please!!!! Furthermore, I think its is ABSURD that ANY Christian can, with a straight face, suggest that God and Jesus would be anything but a vegan if they were to descend in this day and age and walk among us. These two beings are the most compassionate beings ever, as all Christains would agree. As such, how can anybody suggest that they would choose food that entailed death and suffering of innocent creatures where there existed a compassionate alternative? Think about this quietly and honestly for a while, and be brutally honest with yourselves: If there was a sobbing and terrifiied pig or a chicken before God, begging for mercy and for God to spare its life and to not eat it, can you picture God or Jesus just ignoring its cries for mercy and killing it anyway to stick a fork into it? Do not dismiss this by simply asserting that this is a ridiculous scenario because it would never happen. The fact of the matter is that animals do not have voices adn do not know human language, but if they did, they would BEG and PLEAD for their lives. if they could sob like you and I kn ow how to do when faced with a murderer, they would. So get passed the "pigs cannot talk or cry" reflex and undertake a serious self-reflection and re-examination of Christianity and mercy. Think God would say "Sorry piggy but I want to get me some bacon and eggs?" Seriously, do you think that God would ignore the animals' struggle to stay alive? of course not. That just doesnt jive in my mind. It flies in the face of my image and understanding of God as the ultimate merciful and compassionate spirit. The God that I beleive in is gentle, kind, and loving. How can he be anything less towards innocent animals? Just because they are non-homo sapien animals? I dont think so!!!!!!!!!! Christians also conveniently forget that animals too, are created by the same loving hand of God that created us, and loves animals too. They are his children, his creatures, his creations just as much as you or I. And I think that ESPECIALLY evils like factory farming make A MOCKERY of God's love for animals, and that each time we disrespect God's most innocent and helpless creations - i.e. the animals - we disrespect God himself!!!! What is so hard for Christains to grasp about any of the above? I have had this debate with so many practising, spiritual Christains, who all counter my above arguments with things like "God gave us permission to eat meat", Jesus ate fish, etc. etc. etc. ANY REASON for people to keep indulging their lust for animal flesh. Well, whatever happened after the "fall" - the fact remains that Eden was vegan - and it was God's ideal and original plan for us. And there is also a passage in the Bible that says that we should each, as Christians, strive to be perfect just like our Father in heaven is perfect. Put two and two together and the answer, then, seems pretty clear - veganism is one important way of honouring the Lord himself, and it is what we should be striving for, even for religious considerations. As far as I am concerned, a vegan diet is the "Garden of Eden diet" and I beleive WITH EVERY FIBRE OF MY BEING that God smiles on those that show his non-human creations compassion and mercy. I KNOW that this pleases him. I am sure of it. I am not saying any of the above because of my biased vegan perspective. The fact of the matter is what I stated in the first paragraph: God is merciful, kind, and compassionate. God made the animals and love the animals. he would choose compassionate over death and misery. It really is that simple in my mind, and when I hear meat eaters suggest that God would choose death over life and mercy, I really am shocked that they could be either that clueless, that misguided or that delusional! Instead of projecting our own weaknesses and flaws onto him, why not try honouring him in such a great way? Anyway, that is just a quick overview of some of my thoughts.
  12. I know that the Humane Slaughter Act (and certainly its American counterpart) exclude certain food animals (like chickens and fish I think, but you would have to check with the USDA to be sure). You know who would really know this? peta. if you email [email protected] and ask which laws and policies exclude animals, I am sure they will fire back a whole bunch of useful info.
  13. I have wanted to start a thread on thoughts about Christianity and veganism for a long time. Please note that any thoughts on any religion and veganism are welcome, but being a Christian (though not really a practising one anymore), I am especially curious to know what other Christians think about this question. I have very strong views on this (gee how shocking) but for now, I am interested in hearing other people's views, and there theories as to why othe Christians might not share their views. Also, what baout Jesus Christ? How do you all feel about things like "Jesus ate fish", jesus fed the masses with a while bunch of fish, God gave Noah permission to eat meat, etc. What are some thoughts on all this? So let this interesting thread begin...
  14. okay I couldnt fnd any answer to my question on the net. Can somebody PLEASE tell me if seitan is a complete protein like is soy?
  15. Did I just hear an American say "eh"? Robert, you are showing the "Canadian" in you, whether you intended to or not! Where did you pick that up from, in vancouver or somethin??
  16. From what I know about squats (which might very well be squat, no pun intended) you shouldt bring your ass all the way down close to your knees. ANytime you dip your ass majorly past your knee level you are putting a lot of strain on yuor knees. Plus, you dont have to dip down so low to see great results. at least that is what i think.
  17. Hey Brandon!!! Is the "bears" a basket ball team? If so, I think i heard of them before but I am not really into sports, as you prolly gathered and as you are probably on the floor laughing at me right now. anyway, I am so happy to hear that you have given up eating animals. YOU are still a new vegeatrian, so you may have times when you want to give up and revert back to meat, Please dont ever do that. Your own health, the animals, and the environment will all lose if you do, and it will be one sad day. Your vegetarianism, and hopefully soon veganism, will be one of the proudest accomplishments of your life, trust me, as a former DIE HARD carnivore, I know what i am talking about. if you ever feel like you are going to regress (because that is exactly what it would be), come on these boards and look for support and inspiration. We are here for you and are thrilled to have you among us!! You will reap the health benefits of this diet soon, trust me, not to mention the good 'karma" or the like that you will be racking up in sparing animals lives. Just one vegan person saves the lives of almost 100 innocent animals a year by just being vegan!!! if it is true what they say about reaping what you sow in this lifetime, surely you will yourself be treated with the mercy and compassion you have chosen to show onto other sentient creatures. So congrats and wlecome. I hope your awareness of the benefits of a vegan lifestyle for your health, for animals, and for the environment continue to grow stronger with each passing day. You rock! And thanks again for choosing compassion over suffering and death. You will love it here. It is pretty addictive and filled with awesome, inspirational people.
  18. Today, the Canadian news reported that America has opened up its border to Canadian "beef". After the scare of mad cow disease, the US had banned canadian "beef" and today a court lifted the injunction. This is being celebrated by Canadians and American meat lovers alike, and indeed most people who were concerned about the "Canadian economy." The news proudly and happily reported that the first "shipment" of 35 "heads of cattle" were transported today from Calgary to Pennsylvania destined for a slaugherhouse in pennsylvania. And apparently, all of this is "good news" and "occasion to celebrate." Have any of these celebrating fools stopped to consider how HOT and HUMID the weather was today and the fact that the drive from Calgary to Pennsylvanis is in excess of 5 hours? Did any of them stop and consider how THEY would feel if they were packed with 34 other humans in a transport truck with some holes in it in this treacherous heat and humidity, commuting 5 hours on a bumpy and noisy highway, with no food or water or any other measure to make the unbearable heat somewhat more bearable? or, have they put their minds to the fact that 35 "heads of cattle" are each gentle, unique, feeling, sentient beings that are innocent and committed no crimes other than being unfortunate enough to be born a bovine instead of a homo sapien? I am amazed at how the media reports on these issues. It is NEVER from the animals' perspective, and the animals are referred to practically as widgets. What really gets me is that the media is not even afraid to show the images of actual cows loading off the truck and into a slaugherhouse. They are so sure that even images of actual living, breathing, moving beings with faces of their very own will not cause humans to see them as anything other than next week's steak. What will it take for people to see these animals for the special and unique beings that they are, insteadof "food"? Why is this country celebrating the "transport" of 35 innocent animals to their horrific deaths in a Pennsylvania slaughterhouse, and gearing up for the next "load"? It was utterly ridiculously hot and humid today. IT was a record high ever, and "humans" were warned to stay in doors. The meat industry doesnt even give a damn about maybe holding off on the transport until the heat broke a little, so that the animals dont suffocate in the sweltering heat during a five hour hellish ride. ANd yet, people actually continue deluding themselves into thinking that the meat industry isnt "as bad as vegans say". Wake up and smell the coffee people - each and every meat eater has personally bore witness to the callousness and cruelty of the meat industry, because we have all seen truckloads of animals on highways in the FREEZING winter or SWELTERING summers.You dont have to actually see inside of a slaughterhouse to know that the meat industry is evil and greedy, greedy, greedy. It doesnt care about your health, and it cares even less about some basic kindness towards innocent animals. IT aint rocket sceince, it is common sense. How f%$^cked up are we, and how many more BILLIONS of innocent lives must be brutally stolen until people snap the F$#CK out of it???? A cow isn't food anymore than is your family pet, me, or your human children !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ANother thing that pisses me of since I am already pissed right now is this bull shit about how "no one was killed by hurricane Emily that hit mexico last night" I have been to Cancun and it is full of stray dogs and cats, many of whom I am sure drowned and persihed, terrified and alone. What about that 'count'? What about that "loss of life." HUmans arent the only species of beings that are precious, that matter in this world, and that are worthy of "news time." Nobody ever speaks of the lost non-human lives in the face of natural disasters, and I am sick of our species arrogance in thinking that we are so damn special.
  19. Dan, you HILARIOUS!!! Leave it to you to put a hilarious spin on just about any thread here.
  20. Of course, me being me, I canot help but join in this debate. Jonathan, after many hours of quiet self-reflection and brutal self-honesty, I see that what you say - about how vegetarians are vegetarian primarily to reduce the suffering of their own consciences first and foremost - is true. I have been interrogating my soul for hours and trying to find the truth about why it took me so long to go from being meat free, to also being egg, cheese and milk free. My vegetarianism came with an immediate awareness of the immorality of wearing animals too. The moment I stopped eating animal flesh I also stopped wearing it (i have always felt that if an animal is unethical in your mouth, then it is just as unethical on your back or on your feet). But, I continued eating cheese, milk and eggs. After being brutally honest with myself and interrogating my soul, I know why. It is because I told myself the following thoughts and convinced myself of the following: "Well, I may not be vegan, but at least I am vegetarian, which is more than I can say for the vast majority of the rest of the human population. SO I am clearly doing more than most people to at least make some effort at reducing animal suffering and thus I should be given a pat on the back! At least I have made this huge sacrifice of giving up flesh." So your right, Jonathan. My vegetarianism was a way for me to feel less guilty about my contribution to animal exploitation, especially because I loved animals so much - i needed to do SOMETHING to make myself feel less hypcritical, and more morally "enlightened". And vegetarianism did that for me. At least for a few years. Fortunately, my love for animals proved, in the end, to be stronger than my self-delusion and my selfishness. Although I am NO WHERE NEAR a perfect vegan, I now accept that eggs, milk and cheese are no less benign than actual dead animal flesh. having said that, I still in moments of weakness allow the devil to get the better of me and I give in to a scoop of ice cream or a whey protein shakeor whatever, but thankfully, this is the exception rather than the norm, and after each "slip", I am hard on myself. I no longer try to console myself with delusional thoughts like the ones I noted above. So I agree with Jonathan in that vegetarianism can be dangerous to the extant that it makes people's consciences feel lighter, but this is falsely lighter - they havent in actual fact undertaken a lifestyle that makes a meaningful or significant impact in reducing animal suffering. The only suffering that vegetarianism really reduces is the suffering of that person's concsience. Having said that though, it is interesting to note that many people who are now vegan were FIRST vegetarian (I dont have actual stats, but I am just speaking from my experiecnes with vegans). In fact, I think most people on this board were veg first before they went vegan. My point is that I think it is unlikely that a die heard carnivore is going to take what would to her seem like a radical, alomost impossible step and go from carnivore to vegan in one step. That is just too huge of a change, and as a person who has many meat eating friends who wont even consider VEGETARIANISM, I really do think that this is unlikely to be the course of one's evolution in consciousness. SO, I think you might get people to go vegan first by getting them to go veg. AT least vegetarians already have some demonstrated awareness of the ethical issues involved (however limited that awareness currently is), and, more importantly, a willingness to listen and to be receptive to ethical arguments and animal rights concerns. Again, after honest and brutal self-relfection, I asked myself: Would natalie have gone vegan right off the bat if she was first presented to animal rights through a vegan path instead of a welfarist or vegetarian path? yes, I would have gone from meat eater to straight vegan. BUT that is only because I have compassion and love for all animals. Not everybody though is like us. I know people who love animals (have pets of all kinds), and would even help a chichen or a pig in need. yet, after presenting them with all the literature, etc. they STILL refuse to go even at least vegetarian, which, in my opinion, is the LEAST that the whole world can do right here, right now. There is simply NO EXCUSE not to be at the very least, vegetarian! yet the fact of the matter is that most people are too selfish and self-indulgent to be even that!! So I am ambivalent towards vegetarianism for the above reasons. On the one hand, I totally see what Jonathan means about it doing nothing more than easing people's guilty consciences. yet, on the other hand, many (though certainly not all) of us on these boards were vegetarian first, before we were vegan, and some people might have ran the other way if they were asked to go from meat eating straight to veganism. So hard core veganism right off the bat might alienate potential vegans in this way too, thereby also having the same undesired effect of vegetarianism described by Jonathan. All I know is that while I am by no means perfect, I try to always be honest with myself about the implications of my choices, and, even though I am probably too undisciplined, morally weak and lazy to be a perfect or even "hard core" vegan, I hope that continued honesty and self-reflection will at least keep me on the right path, heading in the right direction. And I believe that hard core veganism is the path that every human being should set for themselves and strive for, as it is the only moral thing to do. Because, in the end, there is at least one truth out there that is indeed "Truth" with a capital "T", and that is that animals have the right to live their lives, free from human molestation, interference, or exploitation, and that they are NOT means to human ends. period. THis is not a political consideration, or an opinion that is subject to debate, in my opinion and indeed I am sure in all of our opinons. IT is plain, cold hard truth - as plain as the sun and the sky and the moon. i try to stay focused on that and measure my actions against that maxim which my heart and my mind believes in 100%. Sometimes I may fall short, (and I make myself morally sick when I do) but thankfully, most of the time, I dont. And I continue to draw inspiration and strength from people like you, Kollision, Robert, Ash, and all the others who are hard core, unrelenting and uncompromising vegans - people who set the standard and remind us daily that there is NO EXCUSE for anything less. And as much as I would like to think of myself as an enviro rights person too, I do drive a car. But the good news on that front is that I saw a news piece the other day about this piece that you connec to your cars exhaust system or something and it causes your car to emit less emissions and polutants than a lighter!!!!!!!!!!!!! The item is expensive - it costs like $1500 or sonmething, but I dont care. The second that I save enouygh money I am buying it. It is one thing to be selfish and want to drive a car, but it is another to refuse a newly invented environment protecting device because it is too expensive. Frankly, I think it should be mandatory for all cars. And there is my two cents for the night. EDITTED TO ADD: Before I get any more hate mail from all you ova-lacto vegetarians, let me mke something perfectly clear. I am speaking about my OWN reasons for having taken so long to give up eggs and dairy. It is because what Jonathan says about vegetarians was true IN MY CASE. And it took a great deal of self-honesty for me to come to that conclusion. Of course, as a vegetarian, I did not want to admit this to myself and was annoyed by vegans who told me that I wasnt being "ethical enough." But now I see that they were right. It is just as hard to justify supporting the egg or dairy industries as it is to justify supporting the meat industry is the realization and the revelation that converted me from ova - lacto to strict vegetarian (or what some of you would call vegan).
  21. ]I can relate naturalblonde, we BAD BAD BAD!!! Thanks Topher for sharing that very personal and difficult story with me. I am going to hold you to your offer to help me kick my salt and soda vices. I will think about what you said about your grandpa and it will make me strong. (A vice basically means a bad habit). nat
  22. Hi ian! I am so impressed with the longevity of your veganism and your enthusiasm! Looking forward to getting to you know you better in cyberspace, and welcome to our community. nat
  23. Thanks for sharing it colege b!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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