DukeD

I was lucky in having a bunch of friends who were big into bodybuilding in the early 00's (IMO height of bodybuilding) so we'd watch the videos of the times. Those were the days. I know they're hardly the spokesmen of health, but I'll always support and be a fan of steroid bodybuilding. Just think they could get the same results going vegan (and taking drugs of course). I remember watching: A bunch of "Battle for the Olympia's" Lee Priest's Blond Myth and the sequel Ronnie Coleman "the unbelievable" Nassar El Sonbaty "On my Way" or I think that's what it was. Jay Cutler's first video, Shawn Rays- Forget the Name Craig Titus -Version 2.0

I agree with Justin, in the beginning I quickly lost weight (around 15lbs) and while strength stayed relatively the same my recovery wasn't as good as it used to be. After upping my protein a bit and adding some creatine back into the mix I felt back to my old meat eating self. I haven't used creatine in years, but felt a substantial difference more than usual. I'm wondering if the little amounts of creatine found in meat actually had something to do with it. I also keep the fats relatively low and try to follow a more simplistic McDougall approach. I definitely still consume cooked food such as variety of beans, potatoes, rice dishes, noodle dishes, indian lentil soup, and vegan mexican.

Nice. Thanks for posting I'll be looking into it. I also saw you're on MD. I haven't been on that forum in years and it's good to see a strong vegan presence.

I've had my experience with years of use of various supplements and really think creatine offers the only noticeable difference. If you got spare money to drop, go ahead and pick them up, but if I had to pick one it would be creatine monohydrate. There's for sure some water retention with creatine, but there's some strength and "swolleness" that's always a plus. And take it from me I used to be a HUGE supplement junkie in my youth. Supplements are always fun to buy though.

Yes it's more than possible as you will just have to look on the profile page of this site to see. I do have allot of questions, The whole sugars metabolizing into fat argument is really not true. Definitely read Starch Solution, 811 diet, and the China study for information on that. You should be able to get to your goal bf%, but I'd have to ask what your trainer is having you eat. Keep in mind though as well that a great deal of bodybuilding is the regulation of various hormones. You being a female may have a natural inclination to keep a moderate bf%. So it can be harder for females.

sasquatch... I could care less if you listen to me, I originally just posted my opinion. As for my credentials and "esteem: I work training professional athletes,educating personal trainers, and obtaining my PhD in the area. I'm not here to have my ego stroked, just here supporting another area of health that is vastly misunderstood (vegan nutrition).

K. You obviously haven't worked with one (or at least a good one). And considering you're following a strength program developed by essentially a personal trainer (Jim Wendler). I don't mean to sound condescending, but when it comes to the general public and powerlifting/strength training I get very opinionated.

First I think it's awesome you're thinking about bulking and are concerned about gaining too much fat. There are way too many people simply bulking the wrong way by eating high fat. You definitely can follow an 811 cooked diet and gain quality mass and strength. This has worked for me as I'll cycle between 180 to 225 making sure to not get too far about 12% bf when gaining. What I love best about an 811 is its simplicity. I'll consume massive amounts of carbohydrates and not worry too much about the protein (although I'll occasionally thrown some sun warrior protein in the vitamix). My most simple recommendation is get the starch solution by Dr. John McDougall, begin your strength regime, and up the quantity of lean carbs (brown rice, potatoes, fruit, whole wheat pasta, etc). I also recommend getting proper education on learning the core lifts such as the snatch, clean, squat, and deadlift. I work professionally with sport teams and personal trainers and you'd be surprised just how many of these individuals still cannot perform these lifts correctly. Not to mention is I'd say about 3% of individuals in gyms even know how to perform a basic squat correctly.

Are you serious on the gomad? This just peddles to my point that some of these strength diets are just excuses to obesity. I had a trainer who worked under me that did this and just left him with a inflated body and ego. He was the joke of the gym and soon was let go.

I guess my point is that you can still build quality strength and excel in other areas at the same time. These seemingly "hardcore" powerlifters can lift but that's about it in the performance department. I train with a few of these types who put out unreal numbers but are really just overweight and couldn't do a pistol squat if their life depended on it. I respect a man much more if that put high strength numbers and still do an iron cross. That's the assistance work I'm talking about. Not to mention if you follow his nutritional advice you'll eventually be a prime candidate for heart surgery.

I do respect and recommend Wendler's program, my only problem with it (and some powerlifters) is that it can be way to easy of workout. I follow a loose version of Wendler's program by doing more. You can still definitely get strong EX. for Bench Press Shoulder circles, 25 push ups, Back bends 25 push ups. 135 x 5 135 x 5 225 X 5 275 x 5 335 x 5 Then I'll do a tons more "accessory lifts" just dislike the fact you have to be so precise and that he freaks out on doing too many accessary lifts. IMO if you just do your strength stuff first, you're fine. There's so much more fun things I'd be doing in the gym that wendler seems to frown upon.

I've tried it through a friend and did not like the taste and it's way overpriced. You can make a REAL whole food meal replacement with some other vegan powders. I personally like Sun Warrior.

Just wanted to say that it's awesome that you post things like this on the board!

Yea I've got something against a classified neurotoxin being added to water that bioaccumulates. It just doesn't make sense if your source of water is tap water that's fluoridated and your whole family drinks it, isn't it possible that one member may be getting too much . I'm really against it being added to water and in the end just like every other government interaction on health, there's money to be made from it.

But if my calories were too low...shouldn't I be seeing the number on the scale drop? Thanks to everyone for the feedback!! I know plenty of people who under eat and are overweight. This is nothing new and is quite common. It's a vicious cycle and a big reason individuals give up on diet/exercise. Your body is an exceptional adapting machine and will regulate how it sees fit. Not saying your not doing this, but continue to exercise hard and eat plenty of whole plant food calories to the point of feeling satisfied, then just keep this up. Eventually your body will realize you're serious in a sense, and begin sculpting the body your designing.

While you've definitely been at it for some time, you're still relatively fairly new to bodybuilding/hard training to judge how your body responded to training. It can take years on a single workout plan/goal for someone to really see how their body changed from a result of their consistent training. Your body had years to adapt to the way you personally used eat, sleep, move, etc so it will take some time to adjust to how your currently using your body. There's a great deal of physiology at work from your neuromuscular, skeletal, endocrine, and really all systems in your body making minor adjustments to how you live your life. So my point is you may be surprised that even following the same routine (with progressions) that all of the sudden you notice your "belly fat" slowly goes away. Most of the time people will forget about these issues and totally forget that they even were concerned about it in the beginning. You could try to increase your protein, but you may have felt better by simply adding more calories into your diet, which to me is why your tired. I'd be dead tired training how you are and eating 1500 calories. If your consuming enough calories, you'll probably get enough protein. I used to be a major carb basher until I realized that eating lean carbs (such as fruits and starches) really did nothing except give me better energy and performance. That's also what began to sell me on the vegan diet.

Hi Kathy simple answer your body want calories (protein, carbs, little fat) for the hard workouts you've been doing. GREAT JOB! This is totally natural, don't try and fight it. Without knowing you, 1500-1700 is not enough if what to keep up with your AWESOME training. Now if you want to do less work then maybe you be closer to that range (but that defeats the purpose). For your belly fat issue: Give it time, how long have you been training like this? Reduce your fat intake and don't be afraid of lean carbs.

Eh not really. Don't get hung up on the vegan bias too much, that will just make you miss out on other great reads. Check out: Powerlifting: 5/3/1=Jim Wendler The Man, the myth, the method=Ed Coan Bodybuilding: Of course Roberts Book Starting Strength-Mark Rippentoe Encyclopedia of Bodybuilding=Schwarzenegger...A classic for a beginner Bodyweight: You Are your own Gym=Mark Lauren Convict Conditioning 1 and 2=Paul Coach Wade

I'm going to also say a large part of your lack of success still may be rooted in training and training history. Being a vegan I'll definitely say nutrition is important, but don't get too hung up on what you're eating as long as you're getting a decent amount of calories from whole plant foods (and I also rarely have soy). Below is something from the Plant Based Nutrition Course from eCornell. I think think this really sums up bodybuilding/powerlifting success. This quotes was further referencing the notion that consuming large amounts of protein will magically yield muscle mass. "How does muscle mass get built up? It’s partly genetics, which we have no control over. It’s partly hormones, which we can manipulate with drugs such as anabolic steroids and growth hormone. And it’s partly the frequency at which the muscle is loaded, such as weight" Copyright 2009, T. Colin Campbell Foundation and TILS

Great topic. I agree with Fallen Horse...the ab crunch and all its variations are way overrated. IMO you should never have to do a crunch to have an exceptional core. But I will say I'm a sucker for bicep curls.

From my experience I probably spend a good part of 7 year stint using no type products. I can remember when mri's NO2 came out (the first no product) and I ate it up. It's now been years not using an NO product and personally I don't think it does anything better than following a healthy vegan diet. If you need a supplement to get energy and get a pump, you've got other issues that need to be dealt with.

Nice! I assume you're talking about the Olympics. I plan on watching that event as much as I can. I'll be rooting for her.

For sure wood chopping is a good workout. In winter here in the US I have various places where I'll go to help chop wood. I some family members with a great deal of forest and they have stock piles of wood used to heat wood burning stoves. FYI noting beats a wood burning stove. When I help out it's not intended to be exercise, but after a good hour or two chopping wood (not to mention hauling it) I'm not thinking about a workout. I think it's definitely a combination of both, but I'd say more anaerobic because (at least for me I'm chopping up a whole tree) you'll have a few forceful bouts with little periods of rest over a long period of time.

I agree it's definitely about the money for sure. I'd say ACE is among what I would consider the big 4 (ACSM, NCSA, NASM, ACE). These were the main CPT for years to be NCCA accredited. Really that's all that's important. There's some new one's that have received their NCCA mark such as NESTA. ACE is definitely a respectable certification, but used to (and I'd say still is) considered the "easy one". When I was just starting out everyone would just suggest that because of that reputation. All and all their not too difficult. I say get the one that fits your work/school environment. ACSM-Clnically respected by academia NASM-Repected for their program design and practical use in the gym setting. NSCA-Also respected among academia, but is known for emphasis on strength and conditioning. ACE- The easy one-jk a nice solid foundation on exercise science and program design.

1. I'd say first and foremost make sure your training consistently and don't expect progress to come overnight. There's way too many people who jump into their goals via diet and lifestyle and not actual training (or correct training). I've got guy friends who want to "get big" so they begin gorging, taking many supplements, but are not being aggressive in they gym. Same goes for women they say they'll want to incorporate bodybuilding into their routine and it's more of just adding a few machines at the end of their usual treadmill session. To answer your question directly you probably don't need any sort of calorie reduction (although I don't know how much and what you're eating). A general rule of thumb is yes do strength training first before cardio. This is only really a big deal if you're truly lifting for strength as your cardio session prior would deplete the glycogen stores needed to lift heavy weight for a good about of time. Now if it's a few light weights sets at the end this wouldn't be a big deal. Again don't worry about all the ratios right off the bat. I've experimented more times than I can imagine with various diets, keep your training consistent and you're body will know what to do with the calories. I would recommend eating low fat though. 2. Ignore that post on livestrong. I believe that once your body adapts to a CONSISTANT sound training regime results will come. Not only that common sense will be there. I'm also a fan of 811 especially for a female with your goals. 3. That's a whole thing all together. It seems almost every female I talk too is on some sort of thyroid medication (among others). I definitely am not trying to diminish your condition, but again going back to consistency, I've seen many people ditch their medication and otherwise lifelong illnesses by sticking to a healthy lifestyle. Dr. McDougall and Dr. Campbell have many talks about this as Justin noted. 4. Again with the ratios don't get too hung up on it for now. Clean calories are important, but imo the jury is still out for the ideal ratio for bodybuilding. Not to mention your definition of tone and fit will different from someone else. Also I train a few female clients that for the most part look very lean and fit, but are not. They get by eating nothing are still weak and are shocked when they do their body fat. A female can still look very fit and yet have a high body fat %. This is because they got what they wanted the wrong way by under eating, not by sufficient calories and sound training.