karlhubris

I..when people stop being cruel to one another, cruelty to animals will halt soon after...not saying its right, just saying the cycle needs to be stopped...agreed?

Or, some would argue (myself included), that not until people stop being cruel to animals will they stop being cruel to each other. As one person put it, cruelty to animals is a fundamental human debacle, a debacle so fundamental that all others stem from it.

Wow, this is really a chicken or the egg debate...I don't want to go there, I disagree ,but not entirely...how about this...I think this is a good compromise...people should be kind to ALL animals...and people are animals too

in a sense: cruelty is a fundamental human debacle, a debacle so fundamental that all others stem from it.

that the most cruel and violent people were themselves the victims of cruel and violent treatment. They are themselves victims....

 

Which makes what they are doing all the more worse, as they know what it is like to be a victim. To inflict similiar treatment they have been through on to others..... Two wrongs do not make a right.

 

I agree...that all stemmed from a horrible misunderstanding about a comment I made being grateful for being able to make the choice to be vegan...I was commenting on poorer nations whose people don't consider veganism because they are too busy just trying to get ANY food and other necesities of life...someone interpreted that as me condoning animal abuse...I thought they were saying that ALL people ould be vegan and if they weren't they had no sympathy for them...then it just got kinda crazy...I was writing on the assumption that they equated all non vegans as animal abusers, they thought I was excusing animal abuse...I thought it was "uncompassionate" to say you had no sympathy for people who weren't vegan...the whole thing is kinda funny in hind sight...

2 wrongs don't make a right...and those people should be able to empathize more than anyone else...

I wasn't back pedaling and I wouldn't need to since you can't be a vegan in diet...you can only be a vegetarian. The word VEGAN is the lifestyle that goes with actually being a vegetarian.

The thought of contemplating issues like we do has nothing to do with treating animals in a cruel manner. If they don't have the time to think about other things they should just leave animals alone and not treat them good or bad. You don't have to care about anything to leave things alone do you??? I don't care about giant squid because nobody sees them and can't be cruel to them...I just leave them alone...its easy...I'm doing it right now...and poor people are also not caring about giant squid just like me and at this moment no people are hurting giant squid.

once again...here's your quote...I'm talking about veganism, but you're on a tyraid about animal cruelty...I said we made a choice to lead a vegan lifestyle...then you went off on how poor people mostly eat vegetarian...but that was never my point...I'm talking about veganism...you're talking about a choice to be cruel...

it is almost funny...and in hind sight I can see why it got so heated...we were talking about two different things!

So do you agree with my point? We are pretty lucky? VEGANISM is somewhat of a luxury?

Many are more concerned with their own survival and the survival of loved ones- they do not have the luxury of caring about other beings.

 

Gaawd does that argument get old. All I am going to do here is to state what should be beyond question: like LL said, nobody, **nobody** needs to be intentionally cruel. In that regard, you are wrong - compassion is not a luxury that only the privileged have; compassion is a moral imperative that the human race cannot afford to live without. To dismiss it as a "luxury" is to dismiss humanity's only hope for survival.

 

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I see this is where the confusion started...I'm talking about veganism, not animal cruelty...but at the risk of re-igniting the debate...cruelty is a learned behaviour...when people stop being cruel to one another, cruelty to animals will halt soon after...not saying its right, just saying the cycle needs to be stopped...agreed?

I wasn't back pedaling and I wouldn't need to since you can't be a vegan in diet...you can only be a vegetarian. The word VEGAN is the lifestyle that goes with actually being a vegetarian.

The thought of contemplating issues like we do has nothing to do with treating animals in a cruel manner. .

Perhaps you should read my post before arguing with me...my post was specifically about veganism. I had to go back and reread it myself... somewhere along the line it was changed to animal abuse...that wasn't what I said...suddenly I'm accused of condoning kitty sacrifices and the skinning alive of spotted owls....VEGANISM...read it...nothing really that controversial about my post...

Actually this was about pictures of a cute dog...it turned to attitudes towards animals in Mexico...after contemplating the poverty in Mexico I was grateful for my life in a wealthy part of the world...that is where my thoughts came from...like I said, I never thought it would be so controversial...next thing I know I'm advocating ritual kitty burnings and southeast asian puppy massacres...

[quote="compassionategirl

you seem to be backpedaling and making veganism a diet issue and not a lifestyle...

The backpedaling was for veganpotter...sorry...I should have clarified...

We should consider ourselves very lucky to be in a position in which we can be vegan. This means we have the ability to make a choice in our lives to try to live compassionately. Perhaps the majority of the world does not have this luxury. Many are more concerned with their own survival and the survival of loved ones- they do not have the luxury of caring about other beings. !

here it is again....wow...does that say vegan...hmmmmmmm...yep...

Most poor people that wear leather shoes wear them because they were handed down...they can't afford them...I've been to China, much of SE asia(these two places make up half of the worlds population and not just 1/4) .

again...leather shoes...they don't really care that they came from a cow...that's my point...they are happy to have shoes, they don't really care where they came from...once more...veganism-the pursuit of living life free of using animal products- is a luxury some do not have, they just don't care because they have other concerns...

(and I knew that China/India made up 1/2 the population- I was merely pointing out India's milk consumption (1/4 the world's pop.)

 

In other words, you are saying that perhaps the majority of the world has no choice but to be uncompassionate/unkind to animals.

 

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That is exactly what you said...and I never said people had "no choice but to be uncompassionate"...but I can see the jumbled double triple negative and I can see how that is kind of confusing in hind sight...but to make it clear...people always have the choice...BUT for many veganism is not high on their priority list. Maybe YOU weren't talking about veganism, but I was...go back and read it...and if you think VEGANISM is not a matter of priorities I suggest you go back to Armenia or Turkey and ask the people in the slums...I doubt veganism is at the top of their priority list. Again, maybe I should have put it in really simple terms...when people are free from oppression then animals will be that much freer from oppression. Can you at least agree with that...

You do understand that I am a vegan, I'm not knocking it or condoning abuse...but if you don't think that leisure allows for the contemplation of philosophical inquiry I don't know what to say other than you need to get out more...

you seem to be backpedaling and making veganism a diet issue and not a lifestyle...leather, eggs, dairy, fish, honey (some would argue insects which are a staple in some countries), etc ...again, the choice to be vegan is a choice made by the allowance of free time for contemplation on "the greater meaning of life/actions" rather than day to day survival. I agree 100% that poor folks more than likely eat mostly plant based diets out of necessity...but they also wear leather shoes with no thought of where they came from...and despite your claim -1/4 the world's population see nothing wrong with milk (India)

Is it really that hard to acknowledge that we in North America have it pretty good compared to most of the world? And that that relative priviledge allows us to contemplate philosophical ideals?

And once more...cute dog...looks like he/she will be a good friend!

Maybe we should discuss less divisive issues...like the role of religion in sexism/racism/specieism...

you're done cuz you don't have a leg to stand on...

I never said people had no choice but to Not be compassionate...I said we are lucky to have that choice when most do not...this particular lifestyle is a CHOICE that we made because we were able to put it at the top of our priority list, since basic sustenace was already met...

Again, I'm not too concerned about waking up to tend the crops to feed my family tomorrow morning..so hmmmmm, maybe I'll discuss veganism/compassion on the internet...see how that works...quite simple really...

you're making an arguement out of someone merely expressing gratitude!!!! As well as understanding that the ability for us to contemplate the ideology of animal rights is provided by the leisure that our wealth facilitates...

FYI: Europe/U.S./Canada (arguably the richest regions...excluding mid east since that wealth is in a very few hands) make up less than 13% of the world's population...I'd call that a minority...(those are the projected figures for 2010...the current figures are even less) Average income is about $6,900 for the whole world...I'd say we're pretty fortunate on the world scale, wouldn't you?

Like I said...some countries/people view animal welfare a bit lower on their priority list...I didn't say anything about excusing abuse...I merely recognized that people who have to resort to wearing cardboard shoes may think less of abusing animals than someone who has the leisure time to contemplate philisophical ideals...sorry...animal rights is a philosophical ideal...much as human rights was /is in parts of the world...but perhaps you're right...this site has nothing to do with luxury, priviledge or leisure...after all...consuming 8,000 calories per day, protein bars, hours in the gym each day, and travels across the country/world to meet up with other vegans have nothing to do with leisure...they're necesities...

If I recall, I merely stated we should feel grateful for the luxury we have to contemplate and act upon ideas of compassion...I guess I shouldn't be grateful...

You know, the whole point is...we sit here and "philosophize" and talk about ways to be more compassionate-that is a luxury, a use of leisure time to contemplate...my point was, poor countries often don't think about animal welfare/protection laws (remember how this started) because often times they have (percieved) bigger problems...like clean, running water...electricity...little things like that. Sometimes something less extreme, like maybe AIDS...And the people...I"M NOT JUSTIFYING IT, ONLY RECOGNIZING IT ...often do not think of animal welfare as a high priority. And people who come from f**ked up social/family/societal backgrounds often care less about animals because of their own negative experiences.

Good for you and your family to survive poverty...I suppose the whole time your dad was struggling with those card board shoes he insisted that you all be vegan...that was at the top of his list, am I right? And while you were in Turkey, as Armenians, in mortal danger every day, the first thing you thought of every morning was " How can I ease animal suffering?" That is the point-I'm not excusing animal abuse, but trying to figure it out so as to address it properly.

I once bought a can of (wheat gluten) mock duck, I noticed when I got home that it also contained quail eggs! That makes no sense...gluten duck, but real quail?!

Asain restaurants are notorious for using fish sauce...Mexican restaurants almost always have lard...manteca...if not in their beans, then in their tortillas. Occasionally they won't...

Here's a tip...I've done the "it will kill me if I eat animal products" bit and it has failed for me too...instead act like you really want it to have fish sauce or lard, they might say yes regardless, but then you know they either don't know squat or they will lie to get you to buy their food...either way you know the place isn't for you...I'm really surprised how well that works...alot of times they'll come back and say "sorry, no fish sauce/lard" then you smile and say "perfect!"

What if you had a friend that had the urge to rape a new person every day...would you be OK if he weaned himself of 5 less rape victims a month...I don't think so.

As far as I know I have no rapist friends...I tend not to associate with those kinda folks...

You do remember that this is a vegan site and I am vegan, right? I am just as concerned with how to promote a compassionate lifestyle as anyone else. And I think part of that strategy should include an understanding that some people (probably 90% on this site) have it easier than some folks. I think that comparing the strategy of "converting" a rapist to someone who has been raped (by dozens of soldiers mind you) is a bit, well...outta touch. Those particular sisters are dealing with alot of their own pain, I don't want to push my issues on them. But if the opportunity arose....of course I would share ideas with them. I just don't think they are as receptive to them when they still are dealing with their own suffering. It just seems kinda pretentious and callous to say to them " Yea, I know you went through alot, but that's nothing compared to the slaughter of animals"...wow, what a way to negate/reject their suffering!

But that aside, those people may empathize more, but on their terms, not mine!

Once again I think the context has been lost...we are fortunate to have the leisure time to think about issues outside our own direct quest for survival. If we fail to recognize that we fail to comprehend our place in the struggle. We fail to see that others may have a more difficult journey than ourselves.

I currently work at the SPCA and we have juvenille "delinquents" working off community service with us...this one particular 13 year old girl has a disturbing violent past, she is very kind to the animals tho. She gets it, she knows how much it sucks to be unwanted, abused and locked up--she can empathize. Some others fail to make that connection and instead choose to abuse (pardon the rhyme).

As far as countries go--we are fortunate- we can chat and propose ideas about compassion on-line, maybe in a coffee shop or at a gathering, maybe even read a book. Please don't forget, ALL of those are considered leisure activities! While I'm arguing my point someone else is wondering if they will ever eat again!! And if they have to eat an ostrich egg or a fish, because its all they can find, I doubt they will worry about the philosophical consequences of their actions.

C'mon folks, it's really not that complex of an issue!

Hola! What kind of petals and munks are you into? I like iris, petunia & bicycle petals and franciscian munks.

I like metal and punk too...who ya like?

I realized I should clarify something because undoubtedly some jerk will say " You worked at IBP with refugees?! How could you kill animals?!"- NO! I did not work at IBP, I worked with refugees teaching them English with a refugee relocation program...I came to realize that somewhere along the line IBP worked out a deal to have them work in the slaughterhouse. IBP not only specializes in killing animals but also hardcore worker exploitation. Unfortunately it was the only work many could get. I know, I know...I should have told them they were heartless murderers and I was glad that people who killed animals experienced the atrocities they had in there native countries, you know the torture, rape and genocide... but I couldn't bring myself to do it. I think that might be called compassion, but I'm not the expert...

[quote name='"compassionategirl

I just cant muster up even just an ioda of compassion for sadist f**ks that torture animals for fun' date=' and even less sadist animal abusers.

Wow Compassionate girl, aren't you aware that most cruel behavior is learned and that the most cruel and violent people were themselves the victims of cruel and violent treatment. They are themselves victims....Jeez, where's your compassion?

 

Of course we should strive to create a compassionate world...but we must do so in recognition of our priviledged status...not all had the good fortune to be raised in kind and nurturing households...some of those people deserve a little patience and understanding...and some deserve a hellacious beating, but I'm not sure if I can make the distinction...I'm definately no longer a pacifist, (did I mention I use to be a Quaker?) but I recognize some of pacifism's merits

Wow, I kinda figured on some of those responses...

Having worked with refugees I know a little something about priveledge...if we consider "veganism" as not merely a diet, but a cruelty free life style (as has been argued on this site) than it most definately is a luxury. I know that a plant based diet is far cheaper and more effecient than a meat based one, most of the poor of the world consider meat a luxury, but I also know we live a society where we are HIGHLY sensitized to death! When is the last time you and your sister were gang raped and left for dead by 50 + soldiers? When did you last see your child, wife, husband lying with their throats slit in a pool of blood? How about your aunt hacked to death with a machete?I doubt you ever have...I use to work with people who came from those backgrounds in Rwanda, Bosnia, Somolia and a few other garden spots of the world. All those were TRUE experiiences for peiople I worked with. It it was not surprising that almost all worked here at IBP -that's Iowa Beef Procesors for those unaware. Killing and "processing" cattle was no problem for these people because they grew up around death! I was highly disturbed at first, but I grew to understand the nature that allows a person to devalue life. Some people need to realize that some people have it far worse than not being able to get their soy mocha at Starbucks!

We should consider ourselves very lucky to be in a position in which we can be vegan. This means we have the ability to make a choice in our lives to try to live compassionately. Perhaps the majority of the world does not have this luxury. Many are more concerned with their own survival and the survival of loved ones- they do not have the luxury of caring about other beings. When you see the horrible things humans are capable of doing to fellow human beings, is it reallya surprise that they are capable of those same atrocities against animals? Humans have a predisposition to project our own feelings of powerlessness on those "below" us. Perhaps when people are given more control over their lives, have their own needs met, and are not oppressed by others, they will then have the ability to sympathize with not only other people, but with other animals as well. It should be no surprise that poorer countries have less "compassion" for animals...in many ways, unfortunately, compassion is a luxury.

Oh...cool dog...I almost forgot in the midst of my rant! Glad you were able to make the new friend! We recently took our dog Sigo off the streets. He had apparently been run over ( lots of road rash) and been on the streets for a while. He followed my wife and daughter home and has never left. He follows me constantly and is always by my side, hence the name! It really seems like "rescued" animals know what's up and really show their appreciation. Best friends ever!

I went vegetarian March 1, 1991- I believe I went vegan in the spring of 1996...like someone else mentioned, the carnivore to (lacto-ovo)vegetarian transition was more significant for me. Once I became vegetarian I was more aware of the repercusions of my food choices so I was (am) constantly trying to modify my diet choices. For me, March 1, '91 was the big day...