karlhubris

I was told that was pretty harsh...yikes! I should admit fault for getting bent out of shape...I did think that Shakespeare and Jackie Chan quote were funny tho... I should drop the issue...There's too many cool people here to risk pissing people off...I'm secure in my veganism, and I'm doing just what I don't want others to do, and thats be divisive...lets talk about things that unify us, like...politics & religion

That is exactly my point! We all have our own standards! As long as those standards fit a certain parameter "alles klar!" Jeez! I don't need some jackass telling me I'm not vegan because I've eaten 4 peanut butter cups in the last 10 friggin' years! And for clarities sake...it was in reference to a Clif bar which stated "May Contain dairy"...to some people that's big friggin' deal...it's not to me...it may be at a later time...but I certainly am not going to jump on a high horse and start dictating standards to people...and I can think of some pretty high standards...like injesting more than 1500 calories a day or eating jalapenoes is not vegan-they are luxuries that lead to the unnecessary killing of animals in the harvest process- just so you can bulk up or enjoy spicy foods! You selfish, selfish bastards. How can you sleep at night? See it's pretty easy, and trust me I've considered those standards, but for myself, no one else...so the vegan police should worry about their own standards and let others decide for themselves...

Just kidding...don't even want to go there...

Heretic! Can you put a price on exploitation?! If you can't do it 100% vegan you can't do it at all! Who cares about the long term rewards and strategic thinking to help create a world more open to vegan products! HERESY!!! I think that would sound better in a Shakesperean dialect and vocalization... (enter pious vegan)...Heresy! Canst thou put a price on exploitation? If thou canst act in total accordance with thy law of veganism, thou canst not act at all! Oh pity the advances of a world that has forsaken utter veganism for the sake of the accession of veganism! HERESY! (end scene...exit stage right) I'm not exactly a playwright, but that'll do...

Yeah, I've only seen it that cheap at this place here called Dong Phuong's. But they all have really cheap (and good) rice and "mock" meats. Ever try forbidden rice? We found some at Dong Phuong...it's a purplish color...very,very tasty...I think the story is that it was reserved for royalty or something like that...

I am fully aware of that...you are missing the context...to some vegan police that is a no-no! Obviously even Robert said he had a bit of a problem with that. The point was this, one more time...we all weigh our risks/reward...I think for most of us that is an acceptable risk. I could get on my high horse and say " that means your supporting someone who supports the dairy industry!...heretic!!" I think its a pretty simple concept.

Nice call...but if you have problems they are a new issue...I started eating them on your recomendation! Maybe since you started working for Vega? for info see article "What Does Robert Eat?" Feb. 28th, 2004 Thanx for the site, it's very helpful...even if you tricked me into eating anti-vegan Clif bars.

Wow, that's really cool of you! Thanx for the recipe...that's the kinda support I was hoping for...but I have to be honest...it's not that big of a problem for me...the whole issue was that I have had lapses of judgement. I really try to live without the luxury of sweets. I have been enjoying some vegan chocolate bars lately, a guilty pleasure. Thanx again!

I found an interview with Rikki...pretty interesting stuff... http://www.animal-lib.org.au/interviews/ There's some valuable/funny info about Ted Nuggent...he purposely shit himself to get out of military service in Vietnam... he plays that patriot card too much these days...like they say in the piece, he's not so brave when they can shoot back! hahahahahaha! What a jackass!

I don't know if it is like this everywhere, but here is a little secret I've been turned on to here in Amarillo... We have a large Asian population (alot of people from Laos & Vietnam were located here by the Catholic church during the war) and they have really cheap tofu, mock duck, mock pork, etc... White Wave tofu costs about $1.99 here, but at the Asian markets I can get a 5 gallon bucket for $16!! We did the math and it comes to $.30 per block!!!! Here's the best part...you freeze it and it will last quite a while plus something about freezing it gives it a better texture. A 5 gallon bucket will last us at least 2 months- eating tofu nearly every day! As for the mock duck, etc... it's basically all wheat gluten and it's about $1.40 per can. The mock duck makes for awesome fajitas!!! The down side is...you have to deal with fish heads and squid...but we have to deal with that at all the grocery stores here. Even the "health food" stores sell organic steaks and the like, only packaged a little neater... I don't know about the rest of you, but we are pretty poor and this info has saved us a fortune on tofu alone!

I'm kinda torn on the substitutes...vegan cheese, Boca burgers, Chik patties, etc...there was a time when I tried to avoid them based on the idea that they in some way validated the real meat and cheese. Same with fake leather. I was working at a pizza place when I gave up cheese, it was pretty hard. I was afraid that vegan cheese might make me crave the real stuff...so I avoided it. I'm not worried about that now. As for your recomendation on Reeses PB cup substitutes, I really appreciate that. It's not really that big of a problem for me, I was merely pointing out that I have had occasional lapses of judgement. But then again, maybe I should concern myself with other people's judgement...else the vegan police may knock on my door with search warrants for casien and whey!

When I think of chees I think of that gooey substance in my intestines and not crapping for a week! That'll keep me off it! I suppose this is slightly off topic...

I think the controversy comes at the interpretation " what is necessary"...are tires necessary? not really. Do they make my life more convenient? yes. At that point you have to weigh the risk/reward? Like I mentioned in another post... Are Clif bars necessary? Absolutely not. Is there a risk that they may contain dairy? Yep. Now you have to weigh the risk/reward. I also think we have to consider the spirit of veganism...it is not necessarily against the killing of other life forms, but rather the exploitation of life. This is what Crash touched on. I would kill in self defense. Be it a tick, flea, charging lion, or dog attack. Funny coincidence-yesterday may neighbors 120 lbs Am. Bull Dog got out of their yard, I tried to knock on their door to let them know and that beast charged me-that dog is vicious! They heard the commotion and ran out and got it just as it almost got me. When I got in my house my adrenaline was pumping so hard I was shaking!!! Now I am partially at fault, he saw me invading his space...but it got me thinking, what if my daughter was in the front yard, it would have torn her to shreds! Sorry folks, I would have killed that dog. Then maybe my neighbors for doing whatever they are doing to make that dog so aggressive. Anyways, I disagree on the possibility of being 100% vegan. We are not an island of ourselves, the world around us thrives on exploitation. I offer this as evidence...veganmonk, you have stated you were involved in several martial arts...I assume you trained on mats, perhaps heavy bags...perhaps some where in your training animal products were used (leather bags, glue in the mats or other gear) did you bother checking to make absolutely sure? And my point isn't to say you're not vegan, but only to point out the world around us. If intent is good enough, well I intend to be vegan, but intent is only a start. Now, my peanut butter cups, which seem to be such a huge issue, were a deliberate action. Not something I do often, but a mere confession to all and myself that I am not perfect, I still need to work on self control. My goal is to eat only raw vegetables, nuts and fruits. I'm still working on it. Anyone who says they have achieved 100% veganism has given up the quest and convinced themselves they need look no further. I for one believe this will be a lifetime journey, one that hopefully will consantly evolve to help eliminate suffering and exploitation.

hahahahahaha....hell yeah!!!! It's true!!! Look what the cat dragged in!!! Now would you have ever thought the drummer of Poison was all about ALF?! If you're unfamiliar with Poison, they were an 80's glam band with classics like "Talk Dirty to Me", " Look What the Cat Dragged In", "(Ain't Lookin' For) Nuthin' But A Good Time", and "Unskinny Bop".

You guys should really look into aikido...there are absolutely NO offensive moves or strikes...the founder was basically a pacifist. Now there are what they call atemis, but they are distraction blows which occur after the defender has been attacked. I know everyone thinks their art is the best, but I think aloy of people are in agreement that aikido, when done properly is one of the most effective. It's all about technique , not brute strength...having said that, there are no superior martial arts, only superior martial artists. At my old dojo we would get ALOT of shoot fighters who came in saying they heard aikido was the best....but they all left because it was too passive for them...the wanted "ground and pound".

I was lacto-ovo for a while...then one day I caught myself being pretty hippocritical...I was talking to some one about being vegetarian and they said it was just too hard, I was trying to tell them it wasn't...then it hit me, that's the same excuse I've been using for not going totally vegan! I don't know why, but that's all it took for me. It was hard for a few weeks, but once I got in the habit of checking labels it was easy. I still check out labels almost instinctively now when I get new products. I've always been my own worse critic, but that's probably true for most...

What killed dairy for me was just the simple idea that you're basically stealing milk from a baby...I was pretty naive to think otherwise...

Wow, I bet that got your attention...I think the debate on who can call themselves vegan is really kinda lame. I got turned on to Clif bars by reading this site a few years ago based on one of Robert's articles. I've found alot of inspiration here to improve my diet and workout habits...but today as I was buying groceries I decided to read the Clif bar ingredients just out of curiousity...I was stunned...it states in bold face letters "MAY CONTAIN TRACES OF DAIRY"...uh-oh...call the vegan police and shut down the site! I probably knew that before, I'm pretty good about reading labels. But I was kinda perturbed about some one calling my actions "anti-vegan". Should I have eaten those Reeses peanut butter cups...No...did I have a little guilt...well a little. Do a few moments of weakness negate 15 years of trying to make a difference...apparently to some it does. My point is this...just by coming to this site it's obvious someone is at least trying to make a difference. Just trying isn't always good enough, but sometimes its a start. It's great to encourage one another, like AA or something...can I call someone and say..."man, I really think I need some Boca smoked sausage right now,but it's not vegan...can you talk me down?" Honestly, some people have made me question myself and if I am really trying as hard as I should, others have made me ask, what the hell are they trying to prove? By the way... I think Roberts vegan, but I think what matters most is how Robert defines himself.

I always seem to disagree with veganpotter, (which I hate because he's one of my favorite people here, and he's been very helpful)...but... Chimpanzees are pretty brutal and they are the closeset to humans...they eat more meat than other primates...my minor is anthropology so one of the things I've had to study was primates... Chimps hunt and even wage war...yes, you read that right...at Gombe Jane Goodall documented a four year period where two rival groups fought what can only be called a prolonged war...one group systematically hunted down and killed all the adults of their rivals...they also commit deliberate murder for status, even jealousy... (interesting side fact: of chimps, bonobo chimps are the most human-they've been observed making and using toilet paper from vegetation and also are the most like humans in their sexual behaviour...they are the only primates observed to have various sexual positions and have the most human like sexual pairings, i.e. homosexual relationships...so much for it not being natural!)

Oh, I agree 100% on the clarification that eating fish excludes you from being a vegetarian of any kind...but I also believe that particular situation could have been handled better...like maybe pointing out politely that that is not a true vegetarian diet...technically lacto-ovo vegetarians aren't real vegetarians...I would call that particular diet, for lack of a better term, a "healthy" diet. Its a start... when I first attempted to be vegetarian I was completely on my own...I tried to eliminate red meat first...never claimed to be vegetarian tho, that didn't really work. Shortly after that I moved to the States from Germany and decided since I would have to start a whole new life here, it would be easier to change my routine. I was fortunate to have some friends I had known in Germany years before invite me here in Amarillo to stay with them. They were vegetarian and helped me get started...it was the helpful guidance of friends that helped me make the adjustments...not critical antagonism from strangers...

wow...pretty lame someone comes asking advice and are ridiculed...as I've discovered in the "what is vegan debate" one of the main problems with vegans is they sometimes have a "holier than thou" attitude. My guess is that few of us were born with perfect vegan ethics...and who wants them if vegans act like condescending jerks...I'd say that you catch more flies with honey, but then someone might accuse me of being anti-vegan.

Several years ago I brought in Lydia Nichols to speak on Animal Rights here in Amarillo. She was pretty cool and we kept in contact for a while. Once we were talking on the phone and she mentioned she was going to L.A. to visit a friend whose band was doing a reunion tour and wanted her to come hang out. I figured it was some hardcore or punk band. I asked who the band was and she got real wierd. She was like, "don't laugh, he's a real sweet guy and he really does alot for animals". For a while it seemed like she wouldn't tell me who it was. I was like who is this guy?! She said..."his name is Rikki Rocket". I knew that name, but couldn't place it. Finally she said..."he's the drummer for Poison". I laughed my ass off. What a surprise! I think she also said he has a tattoo on his arm of a masked ALF activist holding a puppy (I think). She said he was really devoted to the movement. If anyone is familiar with LYdia, she's pretty right on and fully devoted to the cause, I took her word for it. She also assured me his make up was NOT animal tested! I see Rikki Rocket totally different now...but I still don't see myself going to their latest reunion show! I would like to talk with him tho, apparently he was a pretty cool skater before Poison...

uh, you've obviously never experienced a full on tick/flea infestation...socks help not! Especially with fleas. Buckwheat is allergic to fleas, so even one bite makes him lose most of his hair and weight. Collars don't help, nor any other treatment. They kill the parasites after the fact. He's right now in recovery from a bite and we haven't even seen any fleas this season, but obviously they're out there. Ticks also carry some crazy diseases for dogs. Again concerning Buckwheat... Last year we went on vacation and a friend watched the house and animals, when we returned it looked like someone had been shot on our front porch...blood everywhere...turns out Buckwheat climbed (yes, climbed not jumped) our chain link fence and got a minor puncture wound on his chest, it would not coagulate, just kept bleeding since the night before. We quickly took him to the vet and after blood tests it revealed he had got some disease from a tick that prevented blood clotting as well as caused brain damage and possible blindness. It was pretty bad. Thety had to mop all the blood up in the treatment room. I can't believe he's still alive...he was treated and all is well now...poor buddy, he's a healthy 90 pounds now, but between the flea and tick bites he was down to 65 pounds! Part of the reason he might be so big is they treat his allergies with steroid shots. 90 pounds of muscle. As far as lyme disease being a minor inconvenience, you might want to reconsider that...here's how I found out about my friend having it...shortly after we met ( she and her boyfriend were riding their bikes from Ca. to Florida-a great story about how small the world is, but later on that) anyways, shortly after we met she found a tick on her and went nuts! She freaked out pulled it off and proceeded to burn it while yelling "Die, die you little f**ker!" I was like jeez, take it easy, and then jokingly I said, are you afraid of lyme disease or something. Aaron, her boyfriend then told me that she had already got lyme disease and led to some pretty serious complications. I felt like a total sh*thead for teasing her. It was really quite serious as far as they were concerned.

At the risk of being called a totally anti vegan mass murderer, I have an ethical question, and despite my tone it is a serious question... I live in a part of Amarillo that is notorious for flea and tick infestations, no matter what preventative measures we take, it seems the only way to control the problem is spraying the yard. Every vet I've talked to has told me spraying the yard is the only solution. Is wrong that I may launch an all out attack on these blood sucking parasites? Not just for our animal friends' sake, but for our own. I had a vegan friend (if I can still call them vegan) who got lyme disease, she said it was horrible, she freaked anytime she saw a tick...and she hated them...killed every one. My options are... 1) wage war on the parasites 2) leave them be at risk of health complications for my family (including the animals who live with us) 3) some how come up with a fortune to move into an area where I don't intrude into parastites living space... 4) ignite a class war to overthrow the capitalist power structure which forces the working class to live in areas and situations where human and animal health is compromised I'm leaning towards #4, but that takes time... As ridiculous as it sounds, this is a serious question.I have seen vegans go ape shit over people killing cockroaches and/or parasites...but then they usually live in their parents comfy suburban home and eventually dump veganism for something hipper...

So do I still have to turn in my membership? My vice overcame me, I still care about animal exploitation tho...I do what I can...technically my wife and daughter really care as well, but they eat eggs and milk products... We (Lori & I) actually just had this discussion at lunch today. Like I said before, contact with others can be inspiring. It's easy to convince yourself you're doing all you can... I must say there is alot of inspiration here to do better...