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Everything posted by xdarthveganx

  1. FYI studying the social impacts of free trade and capitalism, as well as social movements is actually what I am doing for a career. But nice try.
  2. Those who exploit others for their own selfish greed are wrong. If you only use the tools given to you by the master, you will never beat the master. Wake up. oh also, give me an example of society changing without violence in one form or another? Sweden and the US is changing all the time, as are all democratic countries. No need to punch people here. We got there not because frustrated teens but because of opinions that turned. So, first you turn the opinion then, if necessary, you use force. Starting fights for a cause that have the support of 0.5% of the population is pathetic according to me. Learn to talk, that's what grownups do. Who said anything about punching people? This is a discussion about the tactics the ALF and groups like it choose to use. Again, you always take this holier than though approach because you think Sweden is god's gift to democracies. The only reason you even see the changes that have been made in Sweden is because they are such a small player in the world market. Even then, the change seen is hardly one to be considered equal social justice for all. One multi-national corporation like Wal Mart takes in and exchanges more money than your entire countries GDP. Frustrated teens? you think any of these dedicated activists that risk their lives for animals are likely to be teenagers? In fact in most of the cases we've seen where people got caught for direct action, these were long time veteran activists who realized their pleas for change and justice were being ignored.
  3. We are supposed to wait for capitalism to save us? Ya that is a laugh. The capitalist system cares only for profit, it is the very reason that animals are exploited for the sake of humans. Thousands of examples? well lets hear one then. You clearly don't understand the ramifications globalization has had on these countries that have developed so called "strong" market based relations with the U.S. These people in SE Asia, South America etc etc are basically treated as slaves, and exploited for the sake of free labor. You tell someone poor woman feeding a family of 4 on the 8 cents a day she gets from making Nike's for your privileged white friends that she is much "better off".
  4. Well, education, health and real information are certainly not tools given to us by "the master". Violence unfortunately is. In fact an animal farm would probably like nothing better than someone going and vandalizing it and stealing livestock, when the alternative would be someone leafleting it or maybe say, getting them cited for health code violation. Societies change all of the time without violence. War and violence are actually less likely to bring any sort of enlightenment. Vietnam is a perfect example, decades later the United States now trades with them and enjoys friendly relations with them. This was accomplished through commerce, not war. Just remember, dogmatically believing that you are right and someone else is wrong has been the cause of every single genocide in history. Haha the only example you could conjure up was Vietnam? A country exploited by multinational corporations for the greed of corporate ceo's, consumers and politicians. Give me a fucking break. Try opening a book once in a while and then come back to this discussion.
  5. Those who exploit others for their own selfish greed are wrong. If you only use the tools given to you by the master, you will never beat the master. Wake up. oh also, give me an example of society changing without violence in one form or another?
  6. Lets be completely frank here shall we? First of all the ALF does not believe in causing physical harm to any living being, be it human or animal. That quote from Dr. Jerry Vlasek was taken out of context, he was not speaking on behalf of the ALF, he was giving his OWN opinion of the situation. The problem with creating your own ALF spokesman office is that you have to be very careful with what you say. Dr. Jerry hadn't quite figured this out yet, he often gives opinions that are his own during these press conferences, instead of explaining the motives of a particular ALF action. Moving on... We have been taught by this very system that pacifism has been used throughout history to promote change. Unfortunately the actual facts do not support that conclusion. For example, not only did MLK not oppose the use of non violent direct action (i.e. property destruction), the strides made during the civil rights era may not of happened if it wasn't for followers of Malcolm X, the Black Nationalist Parties, and the Black Panthers. They took a much more militant approach to their own liberation, and as such set the tone for change throughout the country. Also you often hear praises of Ghandi relating to activist struggles. Id first like to mention that if you read up on the subject, you may find that Ghandi was far from a saint, not for the sake of this argument we will skip that discussion. However, history has shown that the accomplishments that Ghandi made would not have been possible had WW2 not happened. Hitler and Nazi Germany attacking the British wore done their resources and control so much, they had no choice but to give up the fight.
  7. I guess you would of opposed the underground railroad during slavery then? What exactly are you trying to bait me into saying here? Animals are their own living breathing sentient beings. As such they should be defended against those who would take away their right to life in the same way humans are. I would imagine that you are not opposed to the Jews who rose up resisted against and killed some of their Nazi captives during the holocaust? How about those who used direct action tactics to free slaves and cause financial damage to slave owners? If you saw human being tortured and killed right in front of you, would you not step in and defend that person, using any means necessary? I am saying that it is purely a species opinion to suggest that animals lives shouldn't be defended with violence WHEN absolutely necessary when most people would not oppose using the same tactics to defend the lives of their fellow humans. Until every cage is empty.. xvx
  8. I guess you would of opposed the underground railroad during slavery then?
  9. this guy is a complete fucking moron. If he gets elected I am outta this country.
  10. As always my Partner Megan and I are offering our extra room to any couple who needs it for the Portland portion of VV 08' for free. All I ask is that you clean up after yourselves and pay for your portion of food costs. We have a queen size bed, tv, and dresser in our 2nd bedroom. Send me a PM if you're interested. We also could possibly sleep up to 4 more in our living room as we have a futon and a pull out sleeper couch. We are taking couples only for the extra bedroom so we will be able to offer privacy to those who may need it! Did I mention I live in like the best neighborhood in Portland???? let me know!
  11. I don't think I ever once stated that we should use those views as a tool for vegan outreach. Views like that are not about making people vegan, they are about recognizing that animals have the same right to life as any other being on this planet. When someone acts as the oppressor, be it by raping, torturing or murdering another life they so to deserve the same fate. Tougher animal rights laws will never bring animal liberation. Raising peoples conscious is the only chance we have. I am not here suggesting that calling someone a murderer is effective vegan outreach. I certainly don't do that myself. However, we are not talking about someone who buys meat packaged in a store. We are talking about people who directly profit off of the torture rape and murder of innocent beings. We should not waste our time, try to convert the oppressor. This is a ridiculous argument that has been made throughout our society time and time again. Its a perfect example of the abuser/victim relationship. Throughout the years victims of rape have been told that they should recognize that the rapist is a human too, none of us are perfect and we shouldn't demonize the person, only his actions. Although that may partially be true, when referring to a abuser/victim relationship we need to ALWAYS side with the victim, defend the victim, protect the victim and bring justice for the victim. I do believe in an eye for an eye, however I am opposed to capital punishment. Why? Because our justice system is broken from the core. It is a racist, corrupt system that defends the wealthy class and victimizes the lower class. Because of this fact, there is no way of knowing who is truly guilty or innocent. We know that more than one innocent person has been executed. As soon as that happens, we must take step back and stop. However, that does not mean, if I hear a vivisectionist burned alive last night, I am going to feel an ounce of sadness. Tell that to his/her's thousands upon thousands of tortured lifeless victims. "When education and peaceful protest can't bring their liberation the strategy for their rescue changes into militant intervention. Every action has an impact. Every life saved is a victory. The truth known by the caring few who wage guerilla warfare to end this atrocity. Severed locks, doors wrenched from hinges, the animals deliverance from torment and captivity. Vivisectionists dragged into the street and shot as flames engulf the laboratory. Justice's hammer falls again and again until it ends when the price is a helpless animal's life." -Earth Crisis
  12. It is not said, or tragic, its commonly referred to as justice. These people are murders plain and simple, they deserve the very same fate.
  13. Noam Chomsky is not an anarchist. I identify as a green anarchist. I believe that any sort of organized system will inherently lead to a hierarchal system of control. I believe that capitalism is an inherently broken system. The upper class can not exist without the lower and middle class. It is on the backs of the lower and middle class that the wealth's "money" is made. I also believe that civilization is inherently unsustainable. For something to be considered sustainable, it must for all intensive purposes be able to go on forever. Living in cities, can not by nature be sustainable because regardless of lifestyle it will always require the outside importation of resources. If you want resources for green anarchist thought, my fav. authors are John Zerzan and Derrick Jensen.
  14. I still see a very strong contradiction in the argument, but that's a different topic that could go on forever, so I'm not going to take this too far off course. Here's my current question - why is it that when the argument comes up, it is typically that "women stripping is bad" but that there is rarely a comment from the feminist side that ALL stripping is bad regardless of gender? It's like singling out that slaughtering cows for beef is bad, but we can ignore the chickens because it's not the hot topic. I think that those taking the pro-feminist side would gain more credibility from havng an all-out approach to stripping in general than singling out women as being the only ones they consider "exploited" since gender shouldn't be an issue - if you think that women are exploited by stripping, then you MUST have to agree that men are as well, but somehow that part never seems to get brought up. Again, I'm not defending stripping as a great choice here, but pointing out that by singling only women as being the oppressed, it's both negligent to the fact that men are in the same boat in that line of work, and why it gets overlooked is beyond me. Regardless of the belief that "it's a man's world", it doesn't work to pick and choose what suits the argument at the time - like veganism, it's all-or-nothing in concern for those you consider to be exploited, not just one group in the mix. Just as if you believe that killing ANY animal for personal use is wrong, then so should it be with stripping in general, and I'd think that those taking the con-side would certainly want to attack it entirely to maintain credibility. Technically, it'd be sexist to not acknoledge that if women are exploited, so are men. Hence we come full circle to my comment on the black power/white power argument that I find to be ingly flawed, applying to to stripping and targeting women as the victims while ignoring the men. See where I'm coming from? I see where your coming from, but your point seems unnecessary... I didn't see anyone on my side of the argument advocating FOR male strip clubs. This debate is about women, because the post was about a strip club featuring female dancers. I dont really see how a discussion about male stripping is relevant. That being said, the power dynamic between men and women being what it is, it becomes a different argument altogether in regards to women. To not recognize the fact that living in predominantly male dominated, sexist culture changes this argument is just being dishonest.
  15. You're really really stretching with the Mein Kampf reference and you know it, and no having "many stripper friends" does not make you an expert on deciding whether or not a strip club, and treating women like flesh is ethical. That is completely absurd.
  16. You do not be informed or otherwise simply be reading books or not. There are other ways of getting informed. I would argue that reading books can be one of the worst ways of being informed if you are selective in what you choose to read and only read what reinforces your original stance. You're missing the point, and if reading is "the worst way of becoming informed" whats a better way? Watching TV? hahaha, reading on the internet? gimme a break. But regardless thats not the point, when having certain discussions with Potter, he admittedly forms opinions on things purely based on his inner gut feeling, not by researching or becoming educated on said subjects. Again this isn't to bash Potter, HE ADMITS this is true.
  17. Word. Thank you for this, you nailed it right on the head.
  18. At what point does someone become 'fully informed' and are no longer uninformed or misinformed? Or is one one simply accused of not being 'fully informed' because they have the cheek to have an opposing viewpoint.... Potter speaks a lot of sense on a lot of issues, and is one of the most level headed, grounded and informed posters I've come across on the vegan boards. Potter lived with me for 3 months. He knows exactly what I am talking about. The guy by his own admission DOES NOT read books, as in not a single solitary one. I love potter im not insulting him, im just stating facts here.
  19. I don't appreciate such a good friend being so condescending. And I'm thinking if I sound like a moron than to you I am...if it smells like crap...and looks like crap...it probably is right? I've based pretty much all my views on this issue from WOMEN I know...what about you??? Miche has first hand experience but she is one person that stripped. I know way more strippers than most...some are really good friends and I have distant relative(although I know her better than many of my close relatives) that was a dancer. I don't know how much personal experience you have with this topic but it really seems you've been sheltered from things like this and are a complete outsider in terms of the outside world. Potter, I dont think you deserved to be called a moron. That def was not right. However I know from personal experience that you tend to comment on certain issues that you may not be fully informed on. I completely disagree with the way Dave tried to get his point across, I think the greater issue of thinking about what youre going to say and researching it just a little bit before making it still stands.
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