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tatman6006's Achievements


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  1. So I guess what we're both saying is that there's no easy answer...
  2. HEY!!! Welcome to the forum! Furthermore, congratulations on going vegan! With a little guidance and a whole lot of help from the people here, you've got a good support group! Congratulations again for doing what you gotta do -- and doing it vegan-style Oh yeah, and the nickname is funny, too.
  3. I realize what you're saying, potter, and I respect you for vocalizing it, but the conclusion that it leads to is one that I can't accept. Essentially, the line of thinking that you may or may not be knowingly espousing leads to nothing but the wholesale extermination of non-herbivorous companion animals, because it's not fair that they have a right to live their lives as well. In a perfect world, we wouldn't be faced with this problem because there wouldn't be breeders creating more homeless companion animals, and nature could take it's course and we wouldn't exterminate any living being... but it's not a perfect world... If I had the option of feeding my rescued ferrets (for example) a vegan diet and knew 100% that it wouldn't have a detrimental effect on their health, I'd do it in a heartbeat. It's really hard to be a compassionate vegan, and to work every day to battle the speciesism that was "educated" into me throughout my whole life, and not to look at my two ferrets who have done nothing wrong except for "being born", and think that they should die because they are obligate carnivores. Everything in me says I can't think that way, because it's speciesist to kill them, but yet it's speciesist to feed them, and it's a hard thing to deal with....
  4. I totally understand what you're saying, and I relate to it in a way. If I were in the same situation, it would be a hard decision for me as well. However, that's where I think we're comparing apples and oranges. People have the ability to choose to live compassionately or not. Animals live on the instinct and physiology that they were given at birth. Humans can decide to eat a vegan diet. Carnivorous animals don't have that option. I also realize that there are sentient beings out there who were bred into existence by careless people. I can't fault an animal for it's physical traits, no matter what. Someone preferring the needy personality of a dog over, say, the aloof personality of a cat isn't necessarily speciesist, although it is personal preference. It doesn't have anything to do with one species being lowlier than another. I guess the underlying point that I'm trying to get at is this: we have an abundance of animals that are in shelters and continue to be "euthanized", when they could be adopted, veganized, and given loving homes and long, happy lives. When dealing with speciesism the problem is this: If it's not okay to kill an animal for food or clothing or whatever other means, how does it become okay for us humans to cull "surplus" animals? They're all valid questions, and I don't believe that we have any right or wrong answers to these questions, other than the fact that we should step up to the plate, open our homes to animals in need, and feed them vegan as long as it's in the best interest of the animal's health. Aside from that -- I just can't take the stance that the lives of my ferrets are completely worthless just because I don't have the ability to veganize them -- it's not their fault. They didn't ask to be bred.
  5. I'm pretty sure that's why at least a few of us are advocating for a meatless diet for our companion animals. Breeders aren't going to stop breeding as long as there's money in it, and as long as there's money in it, there will be homeless animals in shelters that need homes... After all -- it's not the animals' fault. You do bring up an interesting point about not adopting certain animals which are construed as carnivores, though. That in itself could be considered a speciesist gesture. It's definitely thin ice to tread on, and I don't believe that there's any right or wrong answer... just a thought...
  6. Billy -- I was trying to scrape my brain for every last little tidbit of information and *HA! GOT YA* material, but I can't. You've done a pretty good job shooting the breeders arguments down. And I really hate that "God gave us dominion" argument. Who's God? Your God? My God? Vishnu? Mars? Heracles? Good work dude.
  7. Do you also not approve of vegans supplementing B-12? Well I don't supplement separately, I get mine from fortified foods (especially Soy Milk). Although B-12 doesn't come from meat. It comes from bacteria that is found in the wild and destroyed in the process of bringing food to our store shelves. To me, that's a totally different situation. Although...After reading VeganEssentials' post.. This post made some very good points. I started to loosen up on my beliefs and I showed my dad the post to ask for his opinion. We've decided to order some vegan food for our dog and see if he likes it. I'm not sure about vegan treats (although I don't really give him that store-brought crap; my dad does), although we might be on our way to making our dog vegan. I guess it makes sense that an unnatural vegan diet with the right nutrients is better for a dog than an unnatural carnivorous diet with tons of bad meats. I still believe the best diet is the diet that animals instinctively get in the wild, but I now realize that pet food is so much different from that anyway that it doesn't matter whether or not it's vegan, but whether or not it poses any health threat to my doggy I probably won't be posting much in this topic now that I've sort of changed my mind, but I'll still be watching the discussion! It was a fun debate. Gerard B-12 was just one example of an ingredient that is typically associated with meat / dairy consumption. Some people have gone to call it the "meat vitamin" erroneously. Just a thought -- is it really so objectionable to making sure that an animal who requires certain concentrations of aminos and fats, etc. that occur in meat can also derive those nutrients from plant sources? An amino is an amino, whether it occurs in plant sources, or animal sources. Just because certain nutrients come in a more concentrated form within animal products doesn't make it necessarily impossible to re-create those concentrations using vegetable sources. We do it all the time with vitamin supplements -- and I know plenty of meat eaters who aren't opposed to taking vitamins to make sure that they're getting the concentration of nutrients that they might not otherwise get from their standard diet. The thought that I leave you with is this -- most animals who are categorized as "true carnivores" get the same nutrients that herbivorous animals get. Herbivores cut out the "middle-man" so to speak, and go right for the plant sources. Carnivores, on the other hand, are just re-ingesting what the herbivores have already eaten. Same nutrients... more concentrated. That said, feeding a dog (I used dogs specifically in my argument here, because cats are a whole different story) with the right ratio of nutrients that are strictly from plant sources, and meet their needs, nutritionally, shouldn't have any less problem than an animal ingesting something from a meat-source.
  8. Do you also not approve of vegans supplementing B-12? Most vegans supplement B-12 that's not generally found in a vegan diet... but you're vegan anyway... I fail to see the difference.
  9. As much as I like what you're trying to say about physical traits...(And I used to use the same arguments that you're using until I had someone poke holes through every single theory) time and adaptation has proven otherwise. Take, for example, the Innuit people. They have adapted over time (because of our omnivorous nature) to digest raw seal meat, blubber, raw fish, etc. They can subsist on a diet much different than most of the industrialized world because the human omnivorous nature allows for adaptation. The most concrete argument that I've found through the years is this: Just because we're CAPABLE of doing something like eating meat, doesn't mean that we SHOULD. The same goes for our (canine at the very least) non-human companions. FYI -- My dog, Bean has been a long-time vegan, is 16 years old, and still runs around like a puppy. It's a testimony to the versatility of the omnivore and their adaptive traits.
  10. As far as the "natural selection" and "what dogs are "made" to eat... we usually take that stance to shoot down any arguments with anyone who says that humans are made to eat meat as well... Dogs, for a fact, are physiological omnivores, as are bears, and humans. Omnivores have the ability to take their nutrition from many different sources, including plant sources. Just because we as a species have eaten meat for years doesn't make it "right" for us to continue to do so when we can thrive on non-meat sustinence. The same goes for dogs. What's "natural" for a creature is really irrelevant once you've got a domesticated animal on your hands.
  11. I agree, and good question. This is a question that I used to ponder quite often. The answer that I've best been able to figure out is this; It stops with us (vegans, and AR people). To further elaborate; We should be the ones who stop purchasing companion animals, and do not support the breeding of non-human animals for human "use". There is a big "HOWEVER" included here. Because humans are directly responsible for the surplus of companion animals that have been brought into the world as a result of humans breeding them, abandoning them, etc... we (as vegans and AR people) should also take on the responsibility to open our homes to these animals that need rescuing. We can't un-do what breeders and pet stores have done to the animal population, however we can take in ones who need homes NOW, without adding to the demand for new companion animals to be bred by adopting animals from shelters, rescues, etc. I'm also going to go out on a limb here and say that we should try as much as possible to veganize our companion animals -- dogs especially. As far as other non-human animals are concerned, I certainly wouldn't fault an animal for being born a carnivore, and not being able to thrive on a vegan diet. Does that mean that a cat can't be a vegan?? Probably not. I've seen plenty of vegan cats that thrive. I've also seen plenty of vegan cats that fail to thrive, and wind up with urinary blockages, and other health problems that can be a direct result of diet. I have two rescued dogs who are both vegans, and gleefully chow down on every single vegan meal that I prepare for them. On the other hand, I have two rescued ferrets, who I reluctantly purchase a meat-based food for. I can't fault them for having been born carnivores, and there's literally no way to veganize a ferret without serious health consequences (to the best of my knowledge). I suppose it depends on the animal. I guess what I'm saying is this; We as vegans and animal rights people should step up to the plate and try to right the wrongs that have been done to companion animals by the pet industry, etc. and open our homes to rescues as much as possible... that way, we're helping to right the "human interference" as much as possible.
  12. Way to go, Dave! I'm so happy to see you getting these kind of results! I'm impressed! Rock on brother!
  13. I have had 4 dogs who have been healthy vegans for a long time. I currently house two of them... Dogs are so easy to veganize... they can adapt to just about anything as long as it has the right ratios of proteins, carbs, etc. I actually cook and prepare all of the food that my dogs consume right now. They consume no commercially prepared food. It's rewarding to see my dogs enjoy the food that I cook for them, as much as they do. I supplement them with vegedog, just to make sure that they're getting all the essential vitamins, taurine, etc., but they absolutely adore having their food prepared especially for them. Cats are more difficult, and some can fail to thrive on vegan diets... however some do thrive... it's heavily dependent on the individual cat I suppose. My dogs have done nothing but thrive on a vegan diet, and I couldn't imagine feeding them anything other than a vegan diet. I can't stomach the idea of killing sentient non-companion animals to feed my sentient companion animals... just my two cents
  14. Motivating others motivates me, its a win win situation, thanks phillipeb:) Dude, I'm motivated as well after seeing your results. I just wish I had the same grasp on my diet that you seem to have over yours. Care to share your secrets with us? I'm really curious!
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