I feel like a bad person.....

[Richard]

I don't think it's a matter of winning anyone over, it's just a matter of people having this opinion that animal cruelty is as bad as human cruelty. If people didn't believe there was a problem with animal cruelty, then they wouldn't be vegan in the first place. It is to be expected that vegans will think that people who are cruel to animals are behaving in an unacceptable way.

 

I agree that if you come face to face with a non-vegan, I don't advise saying "you should become vegan because right now you're as bad as a serial killer scumbag". I don't do that, even though that's how I feel a lot of the time. It isn't productive to say it. But this is a vegan forum and I think it's cool to be able to air those feelings of frustration amongst people who may feel similar

[xdarthveganx]

I don't think I ever once stated that we should use those views as a tool for vegan outreach. Views like that are not about making people vegan, they are about recognizing that animals have the same right to life as any other being on this planet. When someone acts as the oppressor, be it by raping, torturing or murdering another life they so to deserve the same fate.

 

Tougher animal rights laws will never bring animal liberation. Raising peoples conscious is the only chance we have. I am not here suggesting that calling someone a murderer is effective vegan outreach. I certainly don't do that myself. However, we are not talking about someone who buys meat packaged in a store. We are talking about people who directly profit off of the torture rape and murder of innocent beings. We should not waste our time, try to convert the oppressor. This is a ridiculous argument that has been made throughout our society time and time again. Its a perfect example of the abuser/victim relationship. Throughout the years victims of rape have been told that they should recognize that the rapist is a human too, none of us are perfect and we shouldn't demonize the person, only his actions.

 

Although that may partially be true, when referring to a abuser/victim relationship we need to ALWAYS side with the victim, defend the victim, protect the victim and bring justice for the victim.

 

I do believe in an eye for an eye, however I am opposed to capital punishment. Why? Because our justice system is broken from the core. It is a racist, corrupt system that defends the wealthy class and victimizes the lower class. Because of this fact, there is no way of knowing who is truly guilty or innocent. We know that more than one innocent person has been executed. As soon as that happens, we must take step back and stop.

 

However, that does not mean, if I hear a vivisectionist burned alive last night, I am going to feel an ounce of sadness. Tell that to his/her's thousands upon thousands of tortured lifeless victims.

 

"When education and peaceful

protest can't bring their liberation the strategy

for their rescue changes into militant intervention.

Every action has an impact.

Every life saved is a victory.

The truth known by the caring few who wage guerilla warfare

to end this atrocity.

Severed locks, doors wrenched from hinges,

the animals deliverance from torment and captivity.

Vivisectionists dragged into

the street and shot as flames engulf the laboratory.

Justice's hammer falls again and again until it ends when the price is a

helpless animal's life." -Earth Crisis

[VeganEssentials]

I do see where many here are coming from in this - AR is in fact about equality, and not making a discernable difference between slaughter of one being for another, so I am definitely grasping more as to why some feel the way that they do.

 

I do have some pretty mixed feelings about parts of what you said below that I do not agree with:

 

I do believe in an eye for an eye, however I am opposed to capital punishment. Why? Because our justice system is broken from the core. It is a racist, corrupt system that defends the wealthy class and victimizes the lower class. Because of this fact, there is no way of knowing who is truly guilty or innocent. We know that more than one innocent person has been executed. As soon as that happens, we must take step back and stop.

 

Based purely on that it makes it sound much the opposite of the previous concept of "side with the victim, not the oppressor". The vast majority violent offenders are not innocents that were locked up simply due to corruption and a faulted system, and therefore should not be given the benefit of the doubt with massive evidence against them simply because the system has flaws, but that's another debate in and of iteself. Such logic is offensive to those who have been victimized both directly and indirectly by violent criminals and sounds like it's simply making an excuse for terrible behavior on a person's behalf by blaming the system for robbery, rape, murder, etc. and ignoring personal accountability (which is the way that the USA has been headed for a very long time, unfortunately, placing the blame on anyone but the guilty party because it's easier/more interesting/more PC to say that factor X is why they committed their crime). The game may be flawed, but when the player outright ignores the rules and willfully harms another, I don't feel empathy for them any more then those here who have their feel of justice in what happened to the seal killers

Edited April 12, 2008 by VeganEssentials

[Guest]

I can see how our mindsets can give the AR movement a bad name but they need to look at themselves. If Hitler were kept alive to be water boarded for eternity...many of them would be shaking a giant foam finger and cheering for it to keep going. The problem is that they don't see animals as being all that important...if they did they'd be vegan and this wouldn't be an issue.