Bi/Back Tri/Chest

[VegBri]

On my Bi/back day I do 3 exercises of Biceps than 3-4 exercises of back. I do the Bi first to make sure i don't over compensate with Bi's on the back exercises, so I'm concentrating more on the back. I do the same thing with the Tri/Chest day too, i work the Triceps than the Chest. I have been seeing gains in all 4 muscles, but i have been only working out for about 2-3 months so I am no where near plateauing anyways. So the question is, Is that how it actually works? when the support muscle is weaker the main muscle works harder?

[Octopussoir]

You are exactly right. If you fatigue the secondary muscles first then the primaries have to work harder and you can focus more on them.

 

Like for me, I have to fatigue my shoulders on chest day or my delts light up like a fireplace and I cant focus on squeezing chest. I hate that I have to do it, but when it comes down to it its worth it.

 

If you are seeing gains like you said you are then keep with it!!

[VegBri]

thanks for the quick answer. Good to have someone confirm it, don't want to develop a bad habit

[Jeffrw]

Wow, I have to totally disagree with you guys. The primary muscles can't work harder that way...iit's myth and one of the oldest ones out there. You actually have to use less weight and you won't get the same hormonal response. That's bad news if you want to build muscles.

 

Muscles like biceps and triceps are very small muscles when compared to other muscles like back, chest, shoulders, etc.

 

The idea that you would do as many exercises/sets to work a small body part as you would a large one is illogical.

 

Besides, the isolation moves you do for triceps won't allow you to go heavy enough to "activate" the other two heads of the triceps, so you'll just keep frying the medial head.

 

Unless you are in the final 12 weeks of contest prep for a BB show or you are doing juice, there just are not enough GOOD reason to do iso work for arms. Rookies and newbies need to build a foundation first. And you do that heavy compound moves.

 

 

 

As for fatiguing out bi's and tri's before back and chest respectively....another HUGE mistake.

 

They are supporting muscles for a reason....by taking tri's or shoulders out of the bench you WILL NOT be able to lift as heavy. Building muscle requires as heavy weight as possible.

 

 

Exercises like curls and triceps pressdowns, etc...do not even come close to causing your body to produce GH and test like heavy compound barbell-type moves do.

 

So to release more GH and test, you need to lift heavy and do full body moves.

 

 

 

 

Now I am new on here and you can be skeptical, but I'll pose this to you:

 

Look at your gym. Notice the guys who do WEIGHTED dips and chinups, do heavy bent-over rows and deadlifts...I've never seen a guy who does that stuff and have small arms...you'll also notice when it comes to arm work, they will hardly do any....how can you deadlift 2-3x your bodyweight and have small arms? You can't!

 

I see lots and lots of guys doing curls until they practically drop the bar and never grow bigger arms. I've never known anyone to build a great physique by doing these types of programs. Imean a truly impressive physique!

 

I've been lifting for over 16 years and the guys I've seen over that time with the best muscular development built their programs around the squat, deadlift, power cleans, rows, dips, chins, shoulder and bench presses. Maybe end the day with a couple curls or situps or pressdowns, but you clearly see where the priority is.

[VegBri]

"Going Heavy" isn't a numbers game. It is pushing it as hard as your muscles will allow. You are allowed to go heavier in pounds when your support muscles are 100%, but I would argue that your main muscle is working less. Do I know this for sure? .. no, can you link me something that says otherwise?

 

And in my experience people who follow your workout style routine don't have the proportions for the physique I would like to attain. Usually the arms for one do look small compared there tree trunk body.

[Jeffrw]

Never said it was.

 

But look, just for sake of mentioing names...Bill Pearl and Arnold spent years doing gymnastics, powerlifting, Olympic weightlifting and strongman comps along with bodybuilding...Ronnie Coleman too.

 

You'll find when you dig deep into pro bodybuilders, you'll see the majority cut their teeth on strength programs.

[VeganEssentials]

I'm on the fence on this one...

 

I find that there's no need to pre-exhaust, say, biceps before doing back work as they're always getting hit indirectly and end up pretty well exhausted before I'm done regardless. If I were to pre-exhaust them, there's no way I'd be able to hold on well for anything that's continually under tension, such as pulldowns where the weight stack will never touch except on the first and last rep. Simply holding on for a few seconds for recovery for me to catch a few breaths between reps lets me feel a strain to show that they're being activated to some degree (without trying at all, simply being at full extension), and I feel that if I were to pre-exhaust, it would only hinder the rest of my back workout. I think that it's better to try and learn proper technique on pulling movements to where you automatically do not incorporate any more biceps than is naturally used in supporting the movement rather than forcing them to be pre-exhausted. If pre-exhaustion is the only way to keep them from being overly incorporated, then I think that it's more of a technique issue with the general pulling movements that needs to be overcome than anything else. But, that's just my thought on it - when I tried pre-exhausting smaller muscle groups years ago, it was a complete disaster and held back my progress on upper back and chest work when I was doing it.

 

And, while I don't maintain a high degree of leanness, I can say that I did manage to increase my arm size greatly without doing more than 1 direct arm workout per month in a 3-year period when I was at my biggest/strongest. I know that some people do swear by a need for lots of direct arm work - evidently, some people do need more volume than others. But, for me, I found that the best way to increase my arm size was by simply cutting it out for a long time - I got all I needed from deadlifts, rows, close-grip benching and overhead pressing, with maybe 3 sets of hammer curls done on rare occasions. Not saying that the less-is-more approach is for everyone, but I do know that for people whose bodies respond to training like mine does, there's not a big need to do much more if heavy compound movements are the basis of the workouts.

[Jeffrw]

^^agree 100%.

 

Our bodies are biomenchanically designed to perform physical tasks a certain way; it's nonsense to suggest that you can circumvent mother nature.

 

In fact, by preexhausting you can be setting yourself up for injuries. Did you know that most injuries associated with the bench press are from hurting the SHOULDER, not the chest? So tiring out your shoulder before hand is only going to set yourself up for the possibility of an injury. (I know this first hand too; I tore my rotator cuff benching). You can never take your shoulder out of benching. So by wearing it down you are "over-exhausting" your shoulder more than it needs too; same with triceps if you did those before benching.

 

The whole irony I suppose is that it is usually weak supporting muscles that limit how much you can deadlift, bench, row, etc...so by exhausting those muscles, you make it even worse...so your chest/back/etc...will never get the right amount of work it needs.

 

 

 

Effect of pre-exhaustion exercise on lower-extremity muscle activation during a leg press exercise.

 

Augustsson J, Thomeé R, Hörnstedt P, Lindblom J, Karlsson J, Grimby G.

 

Department of Rehabilitation Medicine, Göteborg University, Göteborg, Sweden 41345. [email protected]

 

The purpose of this study was to investigate the effect of pre-exhaustion exercise on lower-extremity muscle activation during a leg press exercise. Pre-exhaustion exercise, a technique frequently used by weight trainers, involves combining a single-joint exercise immediately followed by a related multijoint exercise (e.g., a knee extension exercise followed by a leg press exercise). Seventeen healthy male subjects performed 1 set of a leg press exercise with and without pre-exhaustion exercise, which consisted of 1 set of a knee extension exercise. Both exercises were performed at a load of 10 repetitions maximum (10 RM). Electromyography (EMG) was recorded from the rectus femoris, vastus lateralis, and gluteus maximus muscles simultaneously during the leg press exercise. The number of repetitions of the leg press exercise performed by subjects with and without pre-exhaustion exercise was also documented. The activation of the rectus femoris and the vastus lateralis muscles during the leg press exercise was significantly less when subjects were pre-exhausted (p < 0.05). No significant EMG change was observed for the gluteus maximus muscle. When in a pre-exhausted state, subjects performed significantly (p < 0.001) less repetitions of the leg press exercise. Our findings do not support the popular belief of weight trainers that performing pre-exhaustion exercise is more effective in order to enhance muscle activity compared with regular weight training. Conversely, pre-exhaustion exercise may have disadvantageous effects on performance, such as decreased muscle activity and reduction in strength, during multijoint exercise.

 

So, no more muscle is activated than normal, but because it takes the supporting muscles out, you do less reps or weight.