What is the concensus on squats, deadlifts and back injury!?

[boardn10]

I am constantly hearing from doctors squats and deadlifts, especially if done with heavy weight are nothing but bad from the spine. Why so much confusion here? This all started today when a friend called me who had been having similar problems to me, back pain, arm, hand, leg and foot pain, tingling. His doctor found a herniated disk years ago and even had fusion. The doctor said that heavy lifting will destroy the spine. So, are we crazy to bodybuild? I can't imagine life without it.

 

My back was evaluated by many and no herniated disks were dound, and no real back issues...yet I have those problems too.

 

I am very hesitant to do the heavy squatting and deads after so many conflicting stories. Yet, I don't feel I can gain the muscle I need without the squats and deadlifts. How can one do this with just leg press, lunges, leg curls, etc. The leg press can also be no picnic on the lower back, LOL.

[VeganEssentials]

I'm sure you know my stance on squats and deadlifts by this time

 

Unfortunately, physicians are not always well versed in anything to do with weight training, so while they're a great reference for many health concerns, lifting-related issues are not always something they can give accurate details on. Of course, this will differ from physician to physician, but sadly, it seems that most still cling to many outdated or false notions regarding the "dangers" of weight training.

 

Done safely, with proper form and done in a manner that does not push one beyond their capabilities too quickly, there's little reason to ever worry about issues with squats and deadlifts being bad for your back. All too often, the injuries happen when people have terrible form, or, when form breaks down at the end of a heavy set or on a heavy max attempt. I've never, ever heard of anyone messing up their back by doing moderate weight squats or deadlifts, rather, many people who do NOT do things to strengthen their core and lower back are the ones who end up with lower back issues over time. And, those that get injured at some point who choose to "baby" their back injuries without re-strengthening the affected area are also prone to declare that squats and deads are bad for them. Of course, if you injure an area and do not work to bring it back up, it leads to continued weakness and potential problems in that area, and training around it can actually lead to more imbalances and exacerbate issues further.

 

Any time a physician declares that squats or deadlifts are going to lead to back problems in time, ask for the science behind it and the proof of that statement. It simply does not exist, so you'll usually end the discussion quickly with that

 

Physicians have my respect in many ways, but if you want the facts about injuries vs. half-truths, I'd strongly suggest speaking with people who are professions in sports medicine and quit discussing issues with general practitioners. It's like the difference between discussing technical tax situations with a part-timer at H&R Block who is doing tax prep on the side vs. working with a licensed CPA. Both may know about the field of discussion, but one has very limited knowledge while the other is considered to be far more of an expert.

[boardn10]

But how do we explain experience? I mean lots of these doctors have experience with ligters complaining about back problems, arm problems, shoulder problesm, feet problems. If they find a common thread with heavy squatting and deads, should we ignore?

 

As far as going beyond capabilities...I take the Stewart McRobert approach of adding small poundages each week and watching good form.....maybe 2.5 - 5 lbs a wk!

Edited November 1, 2010 by boardn10

[VeganEssentials]

But how do we explain experience? I mean lots of these doctors have experience with ligters complaining about back problems, arm problems, shoulder problesm, feet problems. If they find a common thread with heavy squatting and deads, should we ignore?

 

Well, experience is difficult to judge, however, it would make sense that people who are serious about training that develop injuries will be visiting someone who is a specialist, while Joe Average who hurts his back trying to lift a heavy box improperly will be the one to visit a general practitioner. If a GP only has experience with people who may be having lifting realted back issues due to poor form or something similar, their opinion will be that such lifts are bad for the back, case closed. Someone who is more familiar with sport-specific training and the issues surrounding specific injuries is far more qualified to give a valid opinion than someone who only gets worst-case scenarios walking into their office. I doubt that most people who lift hard and heavy who are visiting their GP will expound on how much squatting or deadlifting has helped their lower backs to get stronger, rather, the GP will only hear about the problem cases when they come in, hence the standard opinion many hold that squats and deadlifts are damaging and should be avoided. See where I'm going with that one?

 

Again, not all GPs are created equal for their knowledge on lifting and injuries connected with it, but as always, I never suggest speaking with anyone but a specialist in regard to such things unless you want less than optimal advice. If I had listened to GPs and even the orthopaedic specialist I saw, I would have quit lifting for good and I'd probably still be feeling somewhat crippled by my old lower back injuries. None of them recommended that I return to lifting, but that's exactly what has "fixed" my issues. So, that's why I don't recommend going to people who are only used to worst-case issues and aren't prepared to work with you on a mission to get through any injuries or those who insist that injuries from squats and deadlifts are inevitable. If we listened to those people, we'd all be sedentary, athletes would pretty much be guaranteed retirement after their first injury, and that'd be the end of it.

 

There are plenty of people who have done heavy squats and deadlifts sensibly for decades who are still going strong, so take the "wisdom" of GPs on those lifts with a grain of salt!

[boardn10]

Hi!

 

What core and lower back exercises do you recommend? I want to see if I am hitting the same exercises.

professionals in sports medicine with whom I have talked say squats and deads can be OK with correct form as you said and moderate weights....so what I do is use moderate weights to 8-12 reps and keep adding weight slowly with good form. Some of these sports medicine specialists have mentioned I am too tall for squatting at 6'3".

 

NO, I rarely listen to GPs. Most annoy me! I was referring to orthopaedic specialists and trainers to some of the local Philly sports teams.

[VeganEssentials]

Hi!

 

What core and lower back exercises do you recommend? I want to see if I am hitting the same exercises.

professionals in sports medicine with whom I have talked say squats and deads can be OK with correct form as you said and moderate weights....so what I do is use moderate weights to 8-12 reps and keep adding weight slowly with good form. Some of these sports medicine specialists have mentioned I am too tall for squatting at 6'3".

 

NO, I rarely listen to GPs. Most annoy me! I was referring to orthopaedic specialists and trainers to some of the local Philly sports teams.

 

For core work, I rarely do anything direct. Usually, I do sets of crunches during my warm-ups to get the abs activated early on for deadlifting, but I don't usually do much direct ab work as my core is very large and has solid strength/stability. And, since I do most of my overhead pressing standing rather than seated, I get more indirect core work on my shoulder days as well. If I WERE to do more core work, though, it would be heavy ab work like weighted Roman sit-ups and similar things, keeping the reps around 5-10 per set. All my lower back work comes from squatting and deadlifting with a bit of rowing in there as well (the lower back and core always kick in for me with heavy low-rep rows). I might occasionally do some bodyweight reverse hypers from time to time, but that's about it.

 

I wouldn't think much of someone saying you're too tall to be squatting - there have been plenty of tall guys who squat hard and heavy and excel with it, it's just that you'll have different leverages than someone short and stocky. I've never heard anything credible that dictates that there's a height ceiling on being built to squat, just that taller people have different leverages and may need to work on their technique more to find the best way to squat.

 

Truth be told, squats and deadlifts are not *necessary* for all athletes, and since I've seen no shortage of athletes who have terrible form, I can understand why some orthos and other sports medicine specialists think they're not the greatest lifts for everyone to do on a regular basis. When you have athletes who are already in harm's way every time they practice or have a game, the more time they spend doing heavy, compound lifts, the more the chances they can have something go wrong that can affect their sports performance. This is often the reason why even people who SHOULD be promoting the values of heavy compound movements may sometimes seem against them - if you have enough bad experiences with athletes who are more concerned with trying to move excessive poundages over working to do what's best for their sport, it can be detrimental to the overall goal. Any time you want to see some shocking form, just YouTube clips of high school and early college athletes doing olympic lifts and heavy squats/deadlifts. I swear, I cringe at about 75% of what I see when I watch clips from athletes who simply try to slap more weight on the bar every time they train, not caring about technique or form but just that they want to break a record on every session. THAT'S the kind of thing that creates plenty of injuries and helps give the best lifts a bad name.

[boardn10]

Today was a bad day.

 

First I must say, for me I am not a fan of the Clarence Bass or Stuart McRobert approach of more than only a few big movements per workout. I find if I do 3 or more big compound movements that overlap in one workout, I have too much fatigue that interferes. Rather I find it easier, more productive and more intense if I split mine into three workouts over however many days.

 

Example of why I do not like that approach and part of this is skewed by the fact that I feel sick today and off! I went to the gym to do trap bar deads, stiff legged deads and barbell bent rows. By the time I got to the barbell bent rows, my legs were fried and I struggled to maintain good form and to stay solid, hence I hurt myself. On my third set, I tweaked my lower back and I left the gym because I was having trouble walking from the pain. We'll see how it is tomorrow. This is the first time I tried bent rows after heavy leg work and bad move I guess. Didn't help that I felt sick and off today.

 

Maybe going forward I will stick to one arm rows, pull ups, chin ups, pull downs, and variations of seated rows.

 

Funny thing is I have watched some guys nin the gym get really big over the last 3 years without doing any of these big movements such as deads or squats, etc.

[VeganEssentials]

Sorry to hear about the bad day of training. I myself don't like working multiple heavy compound movements that are so taxing in one session, so I always split things up more (such as a day for squats, a day for deadlifts and a day for heavy rows). My lower back would be completely fried and useless for days if I tried to do trap bar deads, stiff legged deads and BB rows all together, no doubt about it.

 

I wouldn't write off the BB rows completely, but if you do them, I'd always put them first after warming up, because of how taxing they are (or, on an all-back day, they'd also be good as a 2nd lift after doing a vertical pulling movement that isn't taxing on the lower back/hamstrings).

 

Some people do get big off of lifting on machines, doing more isolation work, etc. That's just how it goes. However, those who usually get pretty big off of the movements that give less bang-for-your-buck may need to compensate more with a flawless diet, more supplementation, etc. to achieve the same results that you'd get from doing more effective movements. Or, they may have to increase volume to get better results. Just something to consider, not to mention the likelihood that some of the bigger guys out there are fans of certain performance-enhancing substances that make it to where you could gain 3" on your arms just from curling a soup can every few days

 

Take it easy on the lower back, and hopefully you'll be feeling better soon!

[boardn10]

Thanks bro!

 

The whole training program design thing I find frustrating because it is hard to say what is the best approach. Problem with separating legs or deads from back is that I do not like to train a body part more than once a week. So, if I do deads on Monday and it hits my back as it always does...I won't want to do back till the following week.

 

Maybe I could take McRobert's advice and do lower back supported rows or pulldowns on leg day, so I could do deads, stiff legged deads followed by some form of seated rows and pull downs or pull ups.

 

If not I will have to split out again into three workouts and maybe just do squats and calves on leg day...this frees up another day for back and another for chest. Uh man, what a nightmare it can be designing a productive routine for yourself, LOL.

[boardn10]

VeganEssentials, it is really frustrating all of the conflicting arguments! A freiend of mine with some serioous back issue, herniated disks, etc adn who also had had some fusing done in his cervical spine.....recently started doing yoga and pilates. The instructors and also his neurologist told him how bad heavy weight lifting is for the spin and the health of the nerves that run along the spine. UGH! Yikes! I hate the lack of knowledge and understanding out there on these issues! The Neurologist ev en went on to say how many lifters he sees with arm and leg problems from damaged nerves!

[chewybaws]

I used to do barbell rows after deadlifts and found that from set 3 onwards on the rows I actually had more energy after having more time to recover from the deads. When I moved the barbell rows to bench day I started making great gains on the lift. It is a good opposite to bench and work real well on the same day.

 

When you're doing compound lifts you're due to hit some muscles several times a week, and there's nothing wrong with that. My back strength has improved tremendously since I started spreading out the exercises over the week. If I done them on the same day was just too tired from deads.

 

 

My take on squats and deads to why they have a bad rep

1) There's not enough people teaching them properly

2) People are impatient, and ramp the weight up at the expense of a safe back position

3) They're hard, people blame them being dangerous/injury for not doing them

4) There are a lot more to them compared to most other lifts

5) People don't allow enough time for joints to become stronger

6) People don't warm up properly

7) Inadequate stretching/muscle care

 

Man I'll cut it there, I could go on. They are probably the two greatest lifts ever overall and idiots give them a bad name.

[vege]

Im really no expert, but I can share my personal experience on this. I had "only" one back injury from squats, and that was when I was to eager to increase weight, lost my form and naturally my back was hurt. Since then, I am more careful, and everything is just fine. What I found also VERY good in my case is that I listened to advice my trainer gave me, and that is to do yoga stretching after workouts. Since I have practiced yoga for 5 years, I already knew how to execute the asanas (poses) in proper way, so it is was kind of a good advice, really! I feel much better, less fatigued, and I recover faster. Yes, some people look at me strangely doing yoga in hard-core gym (almost no machines, just bars and weights), but who cares:) It takes only 10 minutes, but it makes huge difference. I find these asanas very helpful on squat and dead-lift days:

 

BEFORE SQUATS AND DEAD-LIFTS, this asana makes me more aware of my erector spinae muscles, which are most important for squats and deads:

http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/4152/locustposel.jpg

 

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AFTER WORKOUT, I DO (IN THIS ORDER):

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/6739/cobrapose.jpg

 

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http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/6976/adhomukhashvanasanad7.jpg

 

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http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/3773/halasanabf.jpg

 

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http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/1786/karnapidasanafa.jpg

 

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http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/7228/54paschimottanasana.jpg

 

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NOTE: One should also take few yoga classes to learn how to do these asanas correctly, in order to have most benefits and avoid injury.

[boardn10]

You really notice a big difference with those yoga poses? I would like to start taking Bikram Yoga but was scared off when a friend got into it only to seriously injure his back. I might still do it but can't afford Bikram just yet.

 

I make sure I get a good warm up in before trap bar deads and stiff legged deads. I also am sure form is good and I go up in weight slowly.

 

I find I do trap bar deads better than squats so I made the switch. Due to a disease I have, there is a lot of upper back pain, shoulder and arm pain so it is more comfortable for me to do trap deads and leg press for quads. I do stiff legged deads for hams. I am not sure if I shold do shrugs or not. I did heavy smith machine shrugs the other day after deads and felt a dull pain in my spine so I stopped.

[vege]

Boardn10,

This yoga poses did good for me, and yoga itself also. But you have to be sure to have good yoga teacher, too. If you do yoga incorrectly, you can also cause damage to your health. Bikram is not my recommendation, since you warm up your body too much and then you loose notion of how far you should go. For me the best thing is relaxing hatha yoga, with pauses between each asana, lots of breathing, etc. Not the kind of active, sporty yoga, but relaxing-stretching-calming-down type of yoga.

[boardn10]

The Bikram thing is confusing because I have friends who swear by it. I read claims of Bikram having the capability to help people relieve and even get rid of some serious symptoms.