Why Haven't I Seen The Results?

[Im Your Man]

ahah, it doesn't work like that, you can not prolong life with substances that kill life. People died younger before (and that's not always the case, it depends at which area and time you look) because there were no machines to connect our heart to, or because of a diet high in animal products, or because of unsanitary conditions or difficult climates, etc.

 

Ask yourself why the rates of allergies, cancers and all kinds of chronic diseases and degenerative diseases skyrocketed 300% and more since the last decades, since we incorporated all those products into the environment and we absorb them in every possible way. Why the insects become stronger and we need more powerful insecticides and in larger amounts, why the pathogenic and mutagenic organisms are becoming more and more virulent and invincible, that's because of vaccinations. Why hospitals are full, that's because of medecine and drugs, which are nothing else than poisons. Why putting anti-biotics and other soaps kill our biological defenses as well as the weakest viruses, leaving only the toughest bacterias alive to multiply into more dangerous strains.

[DV]

While I understand your English just fine, I cannot understand your reasoning.

[Im Your Man]

I know, that's because we're not from the same planet. You value more a pill of Aspirin, which is made with a plant that would kill you instantly if you ate some, while I think that an orange is a better "medication". As long as you remove the cause of the disease too, of course.

 

If you're a doctor, I think it would be about time that you read some of the stuff from Dr. Herbert Shelton, who had more experience than you, and learn about nature, which is superior than man. This doctor doesn't aprove any "natural" or "alternative" medecine, even not just deep breathing, or enemas. He only values fruits, greens and nuts. He was a raw vegan who used to put half of a head of lettuce on his plate instead of ripping it in tiny pieces.

 

http://www.soilandhealth.org/02/0201hyglibcat/hygienic.review.articles.htm

 

So take a look at his articles my dear, like "what is a poison?", "shuld women menstruate?", "Explaining The Apparent Actions of Drugs", "Vital Action vs. Drug Action", "Enervation — Toxemia", "Eating and Cancer", etc...

[DV]

While I understand your English, I cannot understand your reasoning.

[Guest]

...

 

 

Are any of the books you read written by non-"gurus"? Do you read anything that contradicts your opinion at all?

 

If I read a book by somebody who's more educated/older than you - would that make my arguments any more credible? I'm sure DV has read shitloads of books/articles by people who have more experience than you. Not to even mention that appealing to your age/credentials (or those of the person whose book(s) you've read) is a mistake in discussion - only the credibility of the arguments themselves matter, regardles of who made them.

[Im Your Man]

While I understand your English, I cannot understand your reasoning.

lol, you keep repeating yourself ? You said that twice. What's so hard to understand in what I wrote ?

 

Are any of the books you read written by non-"gurus"? Do you read anything that contradicts your opinion at all?

Yes. I read pro-meat stuff, anti-meat, pro-raw, anti-raw, pro-cook, stuff from modernists, moralists, naturalists, anthropologists, philosophers, poets, novelists, gurus, non-gurus, (btw DV reads from gurus too), everyone has its demons and its gurus, and I read mainstream and neutral stuff too.

 

I'm going to take a wild guess and assume a large percentage of the increase is because doctors are now able to diagnose these things better.

OK then what DV said about people dying younger when we look back in time is not true since the diagnosis were not valid.

[blabbate]

Ask yourself why the rates of allergies, cancers and all kinds of chronic diseases and degenerative diseases skyrocketed 300% and more since the last decades, since we incorporated all those products into the environment and we absorb them in every possible way. Why the insects become stronger and we need more powerful insecticides and in larger amounts, why the pathogenic and mutagenic organisms are becoming more and more virulent and invincible, that's because of vaccinations. Why hospitals are full, that's because of medecine and drugs, which are nothing else than poisons. Why putting anti-biotics and other soaps kill our biological defenses as well as the weakest viruses, leaving only the toughest bacterias alive to multiply into more dangerous strains.

You make it sound as if medicine and drugs and vaccinations are all the same. They aren't. Taking all drugs and lumping them together and labeling the whole collection "harmful" is as foolish as doing the same thing with all plants and labeling them "healthy." I cannot understand such a black and white view of what's clearly a disparate set.

 

The utility of drugs is dependent upon a variety of factors, including illnesses, age, gender, environment, and a plethora (el guapo!) of genetic traits. The short- and long-term effects of those drugs on individuals, society, and the planet are complicated. And the question of whether the benefits outweigh the risks in a given situation is more complicated still. Each situation deserves its own consideration. Applying a blanket condemnation to all drugs is either ignorant or intellectually lazy or dishonest.

[DV]

It is sometimes difficult to engage in honest, open, intelligent discussion on forums. I appreciate those members who contribute to the quality of information on this board.

 

I'm Your Man, you do not know me. I would appreciate it if you would stop referring to me in posts and stop acting as though you know anything about what I read or believe.

[hilary wright]

DV, I think that we can see that it is impossible to communicate anything to IYM other than what he thinks is true or what he wants to hear, regardless of the facts and/or reality . . . how does he get his "facts"? Why he makes them up, or course.

[DV]

Jaleel, I hoped I was clear in referring to I'm Your Man (not you). I'm not a PhD. My master's degree is in nursing anesthesia.

[DV]

DV, I think that we can see that it is impossible to communicate anything to IYM other than what he thinks is true or what he wants to hear, regardless of the facts and/or reality . . . how does he get his "facts"? Why he makes them up, or course.

 

Hilary! I wasn't sure if you were still around. Good to hear from you. I hope you and your lovely wife had a wonderful holiday.

[blabbate]

My master's degree is in nursing anesthesia.

My brain's immediate interpretation of this was of a field of study devoted to anesthetizing nurses.

[DV]

Which I feel the need for sometimes after visiting here!!!

[Im Your Man]

People are now living long slow painful deaths with diseases instead of just immediately dying from them.

You got it right. Swallowing pills won't remove the cause of the disease, and the disease will come back on a newly transplanted organ. There's no way to cheat. If all those drastic methods would work, there wouldn't be pain and illness everywhere. The average North American spend 900$ per year on medication. That's right. But when we look at the statistics of diseases, who keep increasing, and how hospitals continue to fill, we clearly see that it's definitely not working at all. The diagnosis are not really better now than before. Most doctors see each illed person for 2 minutes, to make more money. How can you give the right diagnosis in 2 minutes ? You cannot. Many people die each year because of wrong diagnosis, mistakes made by doctors or hospitals. And after this, they don't use the right method to cure, because in schools they only teach one way, the wrong one. Someone asked me what I've read. Well, I read the two sides to every argument. Which some people don't do. I've read many scientific magazines too, and it started to make me sick, because most scientists are not scientific. They make assumptions and test them, present this as scientific proof, until the next experiment prove they were wrong. And the "science" of nutrition and "medecine" is surely not an exception. There are some people here who only swear by science and it gives me an headache . I was going once in a while to see doctors, dentists, etc; they were giving me pills and stuff like that. And I had to come back every once in a while. Once I decided to not go back, I never needed to go back anymore, and now it's been more than 5 years. We often hear DV saying that Giacomo (L&G) is the greatest raw foodist because he doesn't preach about his diet/lifestyle. Sure he doesn't preach, but he lives it and practices it, and I doubt he's the kind of guy to swallow some pills of drugs when he has a problem, if he gets a cancer he won't go for chemiotherapy, and other deadly measures from doctors; he will rest and do some juice fasting.

 

 

 

The short- and long-term effects of those drugs on individuals, society, and the planet are complicated. And the question of whether the benefits outweigh the risks in a given situation is more complicated still. Each situation deserves its own consideration. Applying a blanket condemnation to all drugs is either ignorant or intellectually lazy or dishonest.

No it's very simple: all drugs are bad. All drugs cause toxemia and degeneration. The principle of modern medecine is to apply a poison (acting as an antidote) against another poison. This will remove, or just hide, the symptoms for a moment but not the cause, and the effects of the drug on the body are harmful. It's very simple : fruits and greens (as well as pure water, fresh air, quality rest, peace of mind) prevent diseases, and cure diseases.

[Wobbly Lifter]

I'd be deaf without drugs - somehow I doubt they are all bad. Also likely dead as well...

[blabbate]

No it's very simple: all drugs are bad. All drugs cause toxemia and degeneration. The principle of modern medecine is to apply a poison (acting as an antidote) against another poison. This will remove, or just hide, the symptoms for a moment but not the cause, and the effects of the drug on the body are harmful. It's very simple : fruits and greens (as well as pure water, fresh air, quality rest, peace of mind) prevent diseases, and cure diseases.

Now I understand why DV doesn't stick around. You're not making any sense. All drugs are bad? What about plant-based drugs? What about immunogens? Are you really that nostalgic for polio and smallpox? Yes, sometimes medicine applies one "poison" against another when your body is insufficiently toxic to an invader. For instance, artemisia annua extracts are used to combat malaria, saving lives, and are plant-based. Should we stop using them?

 

I guess instead I should sit back with some fresh air, jasmine berries, and jimson greens, enjoy some tobacco, and hope to feel better.

[Im Your Man]

what ? Where did I say that only drugs made in laboratory are poisons ? Most "medecine" is made with poisonous plants. Yes, instead of your artemisia annua extracts you should just sit back with some fresh air, but no tobacco, which is another poison, hope you won't contradict me on this one. People prefer to be cured with arsenic, amoniac, vitriol, alcohol, tar, radiations, etc, instead of fruits. What I suggest is common sense, and don't act as if I'm the only one saying this or as if I'm crazy.

Now I understand why DV doesn't stick around.

Now I understand why Andesuma, Bigbwii, ChaserHun, DurianRider (and me in 2 days - hourray!) don't stick around, and those who stick (like L&G) its because they have the bright idea to avoid those topics.

[Im Your Man]

He would rest and do some juice fasting as his sole treatment if he got cancer?

Yes, it works, it happened many times, even if you never heard about it. They're not doing this in hospitals, of course, because these are the place for death-care, not health-care; there's not a single healthy person in those places. It's not more incredible than trying to cure cancer with radiotherapy, since radiations can cause cancer, or trying to cure cancer with chemotherapy, since chemicals can cause cancer. Go figure.

[blabbate]

IYM: You still haven't figured it out. Dogma and zealotry are outfits that don't look good on anyone.

 

People hate on some of the raw foodists here because they seem to lack the capacity for pragmatic thought, like the post you just made.

I think you pretty much covered it.

[Im Your Man]

People hate on some of the raw foodists here

I think you pretty much covered it.

I think you pretty much covered it.

[blabbate]

I think you pretty much covered it.

I think you pretty much covered it.

Jinx! Buy me a coke.

[Guest]

if he gets a cancer he won't go for chemiotherapy, and other deadly measures from doctors; he will rest and do some juice fasting.

 

 

... as if I'm crazy.

 

You ARE crazy. Suggesting to sit back, relax and have a glass of juice if you've got cancer is nothing short of being deluded or, indeed, crazy. As late George Carlin would probably say - "Now, that is known as stunningly and embarassingly full of shit". What would you say to the numerous people with cancer who already DO relax, drink juice and eat loads of fruits and veggies, but are still wasting away by the days?

 

I'm sorry, but your "argumentation" is beyong any kind of logic...

[Im Your Man]

... as if I'm crazy.

You ARE crazy.

That's what people who know me tell me all the time, with a smile on their face But I don't like your face, and you don't know me, so don't talk to me as if you did. You don't know me, you never did, you never will. Many geniuses were told they were crazy, or became crazy, indeed. I'm a crazy scholar and you are a crazy ignorant. How do you like that ?

 

What would you say to the numerous people with cancer who already DO relax, drink juice and eat loads of fruits and veggies, but are still wasting away by the days?

 

I'll answer this question where it belongs cancers: how to cure them, so it's a rendez-vous.

 

 

An intelligent man may be wrong sometimes, but a fool is always right. He is never wrong. The medical profession is never wrong. It never changes, except superficially. -Dr. Herbert Shelton

[VeganEssentials]

He would rest and do some juice fasting as his sole treatment if he got cancer?

Yes, it works, it happened many times, even if you never heard about it. They're not doing this in hospitals, of course, because these are the place for death-care, not health-care; there's not a single healthy person in those places. It's not more incredible than trying to cure cancer with radiotherapy, since radiations can cause cancer, or trying to cure cancer with chemotherapy, since chemicals can cause cancer. Go figure.

 

There have been cases of people who abandoned all modern medicine and used raw diets as "cures", only to find that they didn't always work, and such people have had to resort to modern medicinal treatments or accept death would soon follow. I'm just curious from the raw perspective as to what explanation there is when someone suffering from a life-threatening ailment goes raw yet doesn't find that it didn't solve their problems.

 

Just as well, there are people who have undergone chemotherapy and other modern treatments who have had situations where cancer has gone into remission for many years, sometimes not coming back. If all such medical treatments are in fact toxic, how is it that they do sometimes work and stop a life-threatening illness in it's tracks?

 

Both questions are geared toward the pro-raw side of things, because, unfortunately, it relies almost completely on faith with minimal science to be able to prove its merits.

 

I think that the lack of desire to understand opposing perspectives on both sides is what gets everyone into this redundant mess over and over again. I do believe that there's a strong possibility that SOME people can overcome illnesses via specific diets (raw and macrobiotic come to mind first), while others will NEED modern medical treatments because a change of diet is not going to do the trick. Too many people claim to have overcome terrible illness through diet change alone to dismiss it from having potential, but at the same time, to believe that all people will be able to cure all health problems via diet alone is completely insane. Some people will respond best to a change in diet, others to modern medicine, so I don't think that there's only one way for things to work for all people because, quite simply, we're all too different to make a blanket statement regarding all people.

 

But, we can agree to disagree, or, do what we've always done here and keep getting into battles of science vs. dogma like this one over and over again. While it can be fun from time to time, I think that perhaps we've reached the point on both sides where we're not really getting anywhere

[DV]

Good points as usual, Ryan. I think if we could just agree to hold up flags that read "raw faith follower" or "scientific proof follower" and wave them during these debates then we could save a lot of typing!!

 

XzebrasX, being a huge George Carlin fan myself, I almost choked on my tea while reading your last post!