AMPK and mTOR in sprinting and walking

[cubby2112]

I opened this mainly because Johan mentioned something about this on another thread, and I have been wondering about it anyway. I did not want to hijack the thread.

 

I have a mild understanding of the mTOR pathway, but we haven't gotten to these types of metabolic pathways yet in school. I hope we do get to them at some point. Anyway, I am pretty sure sprinting would activate the mTOR pathway, since it is a mostly anaerobic activity. The only problem is, it is followed by a very heavy aerobic recovery period before the next sprint. I know that sprinting activates protein synthesis, but does anyone (Johan, Medman - nudge nudge) know whether sprinting sends "mixed signals" and blunts protein synthesis initiated by resistance training? I ask because sprinting is great for conditioning, I love it and I like to be fast. It has also been found to be equivalent to traditional cardio for heart health in at least one study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18434437?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

 

According to this study, when sprints and resistance training were undertaken, sprinting interfered with the metabolic pathways opened by resistance training:

 

Am J Physiol Regul Integr Comp Physiol 297: R1441-R1451, 2009. First published August 19, 2009

 

Effect of consecutive repeated sprint and resistance exercise bouts on acute adaptive responses in human skeletal muscle

Vernon G. Coffey,1 Bozena Jemiolo,2 Johann Edge,3,4 Andrew P. Garnham,5 Scott W. Trappe,2 and John A. Hawley1

 

1Exercise Metabolism Group, School of Medical Science, RMIT, Melbourne, Australia; 2Human Performance Laboratory, Ball State University, Indiana; 3Sport and Exercise Science Division, Institute of Food, Nutrition and Human Health, Massey University, New Zealand; 4Department of Sport and Exercise, University of Auckland, New Zealand; and 5School of Exercise and Nutrition Sciences, Deakin University, Melbourne, Australia

 

Submitted June 19, 2009 ; accepted in final form August 18, 2009

 

We examined acute molecular responses in skeletal muscle to repeated sprint and resistance exercise bouts. Six men [age, 24.7 ± 6.3 yr; body mass, 81.6 ± 7.3 kg; peak oxygen uptake, 47 ± 9.9 ml·kg–1·min–1; one repetition maximum (1-RM) leg extension 92.2 ± 12.5 kg; means ± SD] were randomly assigned to trials consisting of either resistance exercise (8 x 5 leg extension, 80% 1-RM) followed by repeated sprints (10 x 6 s, 0.75 N·m torque·kg–1) or vice-versa. Muscle biopsies from vastus lateralis were obtained at rest, 15 min after each exercise bout, and following 3-h recovery to determine early signaling and mRNA responses. There was divergent exercise order-dependent phosphorylation of p70 S6K (S6K). Specifically, initial resistance exercise increased S6K phosphorylation (~75% P < 0.05), but there was no effect when resistance exercise was undertaken after sprints. Exercise decreased IGF-I mRNA following 3-h recovery (~50%, P = 0.06) independent of order, while muscle RING finger mRNA was elevated with a moderate exercise order effect (P < 0.01). When resistance exercise was followed by repeated sprints PGC-1{alpha} mRNA was increased (REX1-SPR2; P = 0.02) with a modest distinction between exercise orders. Repeated sprints may promote acute interference on resistance exercise responses by attenuating translation initiation signaling and exacerbating ubiquitin ligase expression. Indeed, repeated sprints appear to generate the overriding acute exercise-induced response when undertaking concurrent repeated sprint and resistance exercise. Accordingly, we suggest that sprint-activities are isolated from resistance training and that adequate recovery time is considered within periodized training plans that incorporate these divergent exercise modes.

 

If it will interfere with resistance training significantly, I will avoid it. As it stands, I always sprint the day after lower body day, which comes around every 4-5 days.

 

And the other question: Does low intensity stuff like walking or a casual bike ride activate AMPK and such? I am talking something around 50% MHR at most. The guys doing Doggcrapp seem to do quite well with this type of activity, which they use to keep body fat low while gaining.

[xjohanx]

Recommended reading

Gibala M. Molecular responses to high-intensity interval exercise. Appl Physiol Nutr Metab. 2009 Jun;34(3):428-32.

Elliott MC et al. Power athletes and distance training: physiological and biomechanical rationale for change. Sports Med. 2007;37(1):47-57.

Rhea MR et al. Noncompatibility of power and endurance training among college baseball players. J Strength Cond Res. 2008 Jan;22(1):230-4.

Chtara M et al. Effect of concurrent endurance and circuit resistance training sequence on muscular strength and power development. J Strength Cond Res. 2008 Jul;22(4):1037-45.

Compatibility of concurrent aerobic and resistance training on maximal aerobic capacity in sedentary males. Cardiovasc J Afr. 2009 Mar-Apr;20(2):104-6.

Gibala M. Molecular responses to high-intensity interval exercise. Appl Physiol Nutr Metab. 2009 Jun;34(3):428-32.

Gibala MJ et al. Brief intense interval exercise activates AMPK and p38 MAPK signaling and increases the expression of PGC-1alpha in human skeletal muscle. J Appl Physiol. 2009 Mar;106(3):929-34.

 

If I get the situation right high intensity training like sprinting will interfere with strength training but not to the same extent as a normal run would. In the studies you still see increased strenght in the dudes who do both interval training and strength training. The best strategy would def be to do the cardio on days when you don't lift (like you're doing now). Even though it might not benefit your strenght gains and even work slightly against them HIT is still awesome for cardiovascular health, burning calories and getting some fresh air. I haven't done cardio in a while but I def will start when the snow melts away.

[xjohanx]

Oh and btw, sprinting is very functional.

[cubby2112]

Oh and btw, sprinting is very functional.

 

Oh good, I was about to punch myself in my face tonight while sprinting to find out. You saved me a bloody nose.

 

Thanks for the links. I will look into that stuff. Our snow just melted, so it is time for some sprinting, walking and biking.

[medman]

Johan posted some good articles.

 

My take: fitness should always be about fun, in addition to everything else (health, appearance, self-esteem, achieving goals, etc). Only hardcore distance training is truly antithetical to strength training, both in terms of the types of muscle fibers they train, as well as the metabolic pathways they strengthen. Honestly, to take a step back from the biochemistry for a second, consider the quads of competitive sprinters. I have trouble seeing anyone make an argument that sprinting would prevent quad strengthening or hypertrophy . You enjoy HIIT? Go for it.

 

As for that study about sprinting interfering with metabolic pathways related to resistance training...first off, the study had a sample size of 6, which makes any results pretty suspect in the first place. Secondly, they looked at sprinting (which is quad-dominated) and leg extension (which is straight up quads) done in the same day. Common sense would dictate that you would never do these on the same day because of interference between the two, and you said yourself that you aren't. So I wouldn't worry about a (potentially unreliable) study looking at a different training situation than yours.

[Jason X]

what on EARTH do you guys have degrees in? This makes my head spin.

 

Good on ya for knowing what this means.

 

Medman, thanks for using little kid words. That made sense.

[cubby2112]

Johan posted some good articles.

 

My take: fitness should always be about fun, in addition to everything else (health, appearance, self-esteem, achieving goals, etc). Only hardcore distance training is truly antithetical to strength training, both in terms of the types of muscle fibers they train, as well as the metabolic pathways they strengthen. Honestly, to take a step back from the biochemistry for a second, consider the quads of competitive sprinters. I have trouble seeing anyone make an argument that sprinting would prevent quad strengthening or hypertrophy . You enjoy HIIT? Go for it.

 

As for that study about sprinting interfering with metabolic pathways related to resistance training...first off, the study had a sample size of 6, which makes any results pretty suspect in the first place. Secondly, they looked at sprinting (which is quad-dominated) and leg extension (which is straight up quads) done in the same day. Common sense would dictate that you would never do these on the same day because of interference between the two, and you said yourself that you aren't. So I wouldn't worry about a (potentially unreliable) study looking at a different training situation than yours.

 

Thanks for the explanation. I need to pay more attention to sample size.

 

You are right about sprinters' quads. Most are pretty shredded all over, even though they mostly work legs when sprinting.

[xjohanx]

fitness should always be about fun, in addition to everything else (health, appearance, self-esteem, achieving goals, etc)

 

I could not agree more! The same thing goes with food, it should always taste good. Some people have optimal-paranoia and feel they need to follow every scientific result ever published. Stop eating PB when it showed that the protein was crappy etc.

 

what on EARTH do you guys have degrees in?

 

Awesomeness.

[cubby2112]

what on EARTH do you guys have degrees in?

 

Awesomeness.

 

And sex.

[Jason X]

Boy, thanks. Glad I asked.

 

Waste of my fucking time.

[cubby2112]

Boy, thanks. Glad I asked.

 

Waste of my fucking time.

 

Johan is majoring in nutrition to become a dietician I believe. Medman is in the medical field, I am not sure where exactly. I am studying exercise science.

[xjohanx]

Nope I study nutrition to become a nutritionist / nutritional physiologist. Dietician has a completely different education over here and does not have the scientific ground that we have (biochem, organic chem, molecular biology, microbiology, genetics, physiology etc). My education has nothing to do with patient care while that is the main focus of dieticians.

[cubby2112]

Nope I study nutrition to become a nutritionist / nutritional physiologist. Dietician has a completely different education over here and does not have the scientific ground that we have (biochem, organic chem, molecular biology, microbiology, genetics, physiology etc). My education has nothing to do with patient care while that is the main focus of dieticians.

 

Oh yeah, I remember having that dietician discussion with you once.

[Jason X]

Nope I study nutrition to become a nutritionist / nutritional physiologist. Dietician has a completely different education over here and does not have the scientific ground that we have (biochem, organic chem, molecular biology, microbiology, genetics, physiology etc). My education has nothing to do with patient care while that is the main focus of dieticians.

 

that sounds awesome. and mind boggling.

 

Cubby's I can wrap my head around.

 

and thanks for the answers. I was wondering where you guys learned all these fancy words.

[cubby2112]

Nope I study nutrition to become a nutritionist / nutritional physiologist. Dietician has a completely different education over here and does not have the scientific ground that we have (biochem, organic chem, molecular biology, microbiology, genetics, physiology etc). My education has nothing to do with patient care while that is the main focus of dieticians.

 

that sounds awesome. and mind boggling.

 

Cubby's I can wrap my head around.

 

and thanks for the answers. I was wondering where you guys learned all these fancy words.

 

Yeah, I think Johan and Medman are much smarter and in much more complicated programs. If you want some answers to complex questions, they are the ones to ask.

[medman]

Geez, cubby, you're going to make me blush here.

 

To answer Jason X's question, I have my Hon.BSc. in Physiology and am currently in medical school.

[cubby2112]

Geez, cubby, you're going to make me blush here.

 

To answer Jason X's question, I have my Hon.BSc. in Physiology and am currently in medical school.

 

Are you going into general medicine or a specialty?

[medman]

Right now, I'm leaning strongly toward anesthesiology (very intense amounts of physiology and pharmacology in it, which I love), but I have a year and a half before I have to officially choose a specialty.

[Jason X]

Medman, a question, if you don't mind, and I realize this could start shit, and I mean absolutely nothing by it, but

 

Given the amount of animal testing that happens in the medical field, on things such as anesthesia, how do you feel about working with such things?

 

and johan, since I definitely respect your knowledge on this topic, and also understand (and am wary) that you're going to talk right over my head completely unintentionally, at what point would the less negative effects of HIIT training begin to become more dramatic (as a "typical" run would be)? Also, you mentioned in my other thread that merely increasing calories wouldn't be the only thing to do. I understand that a complete move away from "cardio" would be best case scenario, but that isn't feasible until this summer. I get the feeling, and I could be misinterpreting it, that there IS something diet related that can be done, but a simple calorie boost won't do it. Is it a specific component of diet that needs to be adjusted?

 

Also, if cardio is "bad" for strength gains (simplistic viewpoint), how can some American football running backs, and even some rugby backs be so jacked? Is it just 'roids?

[xjohanx]

I migh dissapoint you with these answers

 

at what point would the less negative effects of HIIT training begin to become more dramatic (as a "typical" run would be)?

 

I don't know. The less anaerobic the training becomes the more unlike strength training it gets so when you can't keep the intensity up properly I guess would be my best guess.

 

Also, you mentioned in my other thread that merely increasing calories wouldn't be the only thing to do.

 

Well I said probably

It's like I said earlier in this thread, make sure you really split up the cardio and strength sessions. The best is on separate days (if possible more than one day apart but resting at least 24 hours is "acceptable"). It's all about recovery so make sure you eat enough protein and carbs. Vitamins and minerals also play a big part of course. Taking a protein or essential/branched amino acid shake right before and after your cardio would probably help (this goes for strenght too btw). Even though the proper nutrition will help it won't make the effects of cardio dissapear (and that's kinda what I meant in the other thread).

 

I understand that a complete move away from "cardio" would be best case scenario, but that isn't feasible until this summer.

 

Well here you have to ask yourself "best for what?", strength gains? Yes. Muscle volume? Yes. Heart health? No. Endothelial function? No. Overall wellbeing? Maybe, most likely not. I did not write that stuff to disencourage you from doing cardio (I myself am waiting eagerly for the snow to dissapear here so I can go do some cardio myself) I just wanted you to understand why increasing calories won't make everything well. And knowing these mechanisms or at least that there are two different signaling pathways that interfere with eachother maybe teaches people to separate cardio and strength to get better results. If you really really want to gain strength and maybe compete I get why not doing cardio seems to be good but otherwise I would reconsider because cardio has several benefits.

[medman]

Medman, a question, if you don't mind, and I realize this could start shit, and I mean absolutely nothing by it, but

 

Given the amount of animal testing that happens in the medical field, on things such as anesthesia, how do you feel about working with such things?

 

That's a good question, Jason. I personally choose not to do animal experiments (note: in my undergrad, I was required to, but managed to design my Honour's project in a way that allowed me to do my research on skin from fish that had just been sacrificed for other people's experiments, so I was only using parts that were about to be thrown out, and never had to kill any fish for my own purposes...sneaky vegan scientist eh...).

 

To me, anesthesiology is the most humane face of medicine. Its entire goal is to relieve pain and prevent/reduce suffering. While anesthetic agents were all at one time tested on animals, once their safety is established, all the research is done on people - finding the right combinations for the right kinds of patients, etc. I intend to do research, but will always stick to clinical projects (i.e. only dealing with people).

 

And I've said this before, but I truly do believe that the medical field is the only area currently worth using animals for experiments. I feel that there is a LOT of inefficiency (that WAY fewer animals could be used), and that primates should NEVER be used in ANY situation, but that until the day that animals are no longer suffering for the sake of food, I can't justify trying to eliminate them from medical research. It's just a point of practicality...if 200 animals were used to establish that an anesthetic is safe for use in humans, and it can now reduce the suffering of millions of patients, I feel that's far more noble and worthwhile than the thousands of animals that were killed to make those patients lunch while they recover in hospital. The benefit we gain from a relatively small number of animals used in research is so much greater than the benefit we gain from the massive numbers we eat...so my opinion is that we should eliminate the biggest industry first, then worry about animal testing more. Though I am certainly an advocate for eliminating use of animals in research when it's not necessary (and of course, there are many many many experiments for which they are not necessary).

[Jason X]

Johan, that makes sense, and is what I'd been trying (albeit not that well) to do. Separation and recovery. Unless I'm trying to run myself into ground, in which case I'll run immediately after lifting (but that never goes so well). I'm not competing in any weightlifting competitions, only rugby, and this summer, hopefully bjj and mma. SO, running is going to be essential. And it's fun. Besides, I'm doing that 200 mile relay run, so NOT running isn't really an option. I will make more of a point to not run (for distance) and lift on the same days. I do currently lift on rugby practice days, albeit 11 hours apart, and I'm always recovered well from my lifts. Not to mention it's all intervals at practice. No "jogging".

 

Medman, I can appreciate where you're coming from. Seems like you've put thought into your career, and also into your studies to do it in the least harmful way. It's the same conflict of interest as vegan veterinary students. The hurt vs. help dynamic. It's a touchy subject. Thanks for answering.