Out best friends are tortured death in Phlippine

[violet13]

Sometimes I feel so ashamed to be Asian knowing reality of chilling brutalities in Asian countries.

There is no justification for the way some Asians torture innocent defenseless animals before they kill them and this is not cultural difference but practice of sadism.

 

I am sorry.

I could not post the link I wanted post and when I wanted to delete, X is invisible on my screen.

_________________

If you eat meat, don't call yourself animal lover because you are not.

Killing and loving never go together but hate and killing go together!

Edited February 8, 2006 by violet13

[violet13]

http://www.animalsasia.org/index.php?module=3&menupos=8&lg=en

Another link.

[Jay]

Does maybe the lack of affluence make pets too much of a luxury for most (in Asian countries) and so they view dogs just as they would pigs, cows, chickens, etc?

 

Maybe having pets (despite the hardcore vegan anti-pet rhetoric) is very useful in making people think of animals as something with feelings, intelligence, etc.

 

I don't guess any culture eats animals that are also generally kept as pets?

[violet13]

Jay what I am against is TOTALLY UNNECESSARY SADISTIC TORTURE of dogs before they eat these animals who have intelligence and affection.

Have you ever seen dogs whose legs are tied on his back and his mouth is covered with tin can to prevent breathing?

I think we need to think beyond livestock=food.

We must view these barbarity as unacceptable practice in any society because this is not cultural difference but shameful sadistic barbarity.

[cactus]

Torture is only one aspect. Its all I can do to hold my temper in regarding anyone who would eat a dog. Fuck any one's culture regarding this, and Fuck anyone who eats one.

 

There is a special kinship between man and wolf/dog that most people cannot understand.

 

I am a K9 handler, and my dog has risked himself for my life, as I would for his. Infact he has risked his life for many people. The intelligence or soul of a dog is beyond questioning. No bullshit arguement about culture will work here. Any culture that can't recognize the spirit of a dog isn't worth existing.

[Jay]

Jay what I am against is TOTALLY UNNECESSARY SADISTIC TORTURE of dogs before they eat these animals who have intelligence and affection.

Have you ever seen dogs whose legs are tied on his back and his mouth is covered with tin can to prevent breathing?

I think we need to think beyond livestock=food.

We must view these barbarity as unacceptable practice in any society because this is not cultural difference but shameful sadistic barbarity.

Violet,

OK you see what I put in bold up above?

What the hell is the point in you asking me that? Do you think you need to convert me to veganism? I'm a vegan, violet. I don't torture dogs.

 

Furthermore, did I ask what you are against? No, I did not. You've already made it clear. I asked about culture. I guess you're saying this is somehow totally unrelated to culture. How that is possible is beyond me.

 

I think some Japanese words must translate funny.

 

Honestly this is getting a little old though because this is exactly what you did to begin with and you're still doing it. I say that with respect to what I put in bold. That really pisses vegans off when you say such things. It just doesn't make any sense to plead to vegans to quit torturing dogs, etc.

[violet13]

Jay, maybe you view barbarities as cultural difference but I DO NOT!

I am sorry if I misunderstood you.

Some Spanish and Mexicans think bullfights are acceptable because it is just culatural difference but bullfights are not cultural difference but shameful bloody barbarity.

These barbarities are not related to culture.

We have cultural difference in music, art, sports, etc but NOT SHAMEFUL BLOODY BARBARITIES.

Please do not put word in my mouth.

You are only person who interpret my message incorrectly.

[Comet]

I think that different cultures torture different types of animals. For instance in some countries the cow is considered holy, and in the states and europe they're treated horrifically.

 

I think that culture has to do with "what" is culled but any torture of animals is a universal cruelty not limited to anything...

 

Comet

[compassionategirl]

 

Maybe having pets (despite the hardcore vegan anti-pet rhetoric) is very useful in making people think of animals as something with feelings, intelligence, etc.

 

 

Totally agree. This was certainly my personal experience Jay. My cats made me vegan (and meetyourmeat, and rob cheeke).

[Jay]

Jay, maybe you view barbarities as cultural difference but I DO NOT!

OK, well so we disagree. The capital letters makes it look like you're screaming. It's rude. And you're wrong.

I am sorry if I misunderstood you.

Some Spanish and Mexicans think bullfights are acceptable because it is just culatural difference but bullfights are not cultural difference but shameful bloody barbarity.

These barbarities are not related to culture.

We have cultural difference in music, art, sports, etc but NOT SHAMEFUL BLOODY BARBARITIES.

Well we disagree.

Please do not put word in my mouth.

What words did I put in your mouth?

You are only person who interpret my message incorrectly.

I have no idea what it is that only I misinterpreted that "everyone else" didn't. I simply asked you a question and you responded by screaming at me as if I was torturing animals. You still haven't explained why you did that.

[Jay]

 

Maybe having pets (despite the hardcore vegan anti-pet rhetoric) is very useful in making people think of animals as something with feelings, intelligence, etc.

 

 

Totally agree. This was certainly my personal experience Jay. My cats made me vegan (and meetyourmeat, and rob cheeke).

Yeah, it makes sense. That's why I was curious about pets in Asian culture. Is there anyone with knowledge of this who isn't going to start screaming at me to stop torturing animals who knows anything about this?

[compassionategirl]

Jay what I am against is TOTALLY UNNECESSARY SADISTIC TORTURE of dogs before they eat these animals who have intelligence and affection.

Have you ever seen dogs whose legs are tied on his back and his mouth is covered with tin can to prevent breathing?

I think we need to think beyond livestock=food.

We must view these barbarity as unacceptable practice in any society because this is not cultural difference but shameful sadistic barbarity.

 

violet, nobody on this website tortures animals or thinks it is okay to torture animals. So stop screaming at people to stop torturing animals.

 

In some societies, animal cruelty is justified on the basis of tradition and/or culture - but not justifiable. There is a difference. I dont think that Jay is saying the cruelty is justifiable on grounds of culture, only that people do try and justify it on those grounds. Bull fights are tradition in Spain. Are they BLOODY MURDER and WRONG - to borrow from your style - of course they are. Of course tradition can never justify cruelty. But Spanish people DO feel that bullfighting is tradition and do justify it as such- even though they are wrong because it is barbaric and cruel.

 

Nobody is saying that SADISTIC BLOODY TORTURE (to borrow again from your style) is acceptable or okay.

 

Try to engage in a conversation with people instead of screaming at them in caps without understanding what their position is, only to end up apologizing later and saying you 'misunderstood.' I would think that since English is not your first language you would be a little more cautious before you bit somebody's head off without making sure you understood their post.

[compassionategirl]

Torture is only one aspect. Its all I can do to hold my temper in regarding anyone who would eat a dog. Fuck any one's culture regarding this, and Fuck anyone who eats one.

 

There is a special kinship between man and wolf/dog that most people cannot understand.

 

I am a K9 handler, and my dog has risked himself for my life, as I would for his. Infact he has risked his life for many people. The intelligence or soul of a dog is beyond questioning. No bullshit arguement about culture will work here. Any culture that can't recognize the spirit of a dog isn't worth existing.

 

It is wrong to eat dogs, but it is no less wrong to eat other animals Cactus. The only differences among animals is the way humans arbitrarily treat them. But you are already recognizing this arbitrariness in your journey to veganism (since you said you were motivated by ethical reasons). No B** s** tradition argument can work on our Thanksgiving dinner tables either, nor in bull fights, nor in eating monkey brains, etc.

 

Since you mention "intelligence" as a factor that seems to be relevant in determining an animals moral consideration, you should know that pigs are smarter than dogs.

 

But intelligence is irrelevant. Sentience is what ought to matter. [/i]

[cactus]

Yeah, trust me we are on the same page compassion. I don't eat pig. I did obviously b/c culture dictated it so (upbringing ect). Once I was able to recognize for myself... It was not an issue any longer.

 

Actually recognizing the Pigs close relation/or behavior to dogs is what initiated my change. Next was any red meat as it seemed hypocrytical to attempt to differentiate. Cattle, horse sheep...all the same to me now.

 

I do firmly stand by the concept that there is an issue/difference between eating a pig or a fish- based on the mental/emotional state/progression consciousness etc etc of them.

 

I have no issue eating cheese or milk or eggs myself at this point. So I suppose Im still vegatarianistic as opposed to vegan.

 

But there is still a unique bond that occurs between mankind/dog that I have not seen myself duplicated on a general level. (except possibly pigs)

[compassionategirl]

 

I do firmly stand by the concept that there is an issue/difference between eating a pig or a fish- based on the mental/emotional state/progression consciousness etc etc of them.

 

I have no issue eating cheese or milk or eggs myself at this point. So I suppose Im still vegatarianistic as opposed to vegan.

 

 

Hey cactus,

 

Regarding fish, many people dont really understand fish and how amazing these creatures are as well. For example, I had a friend who had a fish (cant remember what kind it was). The fish had its own personality and recognized my friend. When he would come home at night, the fish would swim up to the side of the tank closest to the door and stay there, essentially "greeting" my friend. Based on his pet fishes personality, my friend described the fish to be "like a golden retreiver with no fur or vocal chords. " I think Jay (another board member) also had a similar experiences with one of his fish, commenting how smart he was.

 

A really good example is lobsters. Many people dont know that lobserts are such amazing creatures. They are monogomous mates. They find one mate/partner, and stick to that mate for their entire lives, never mating with another lobster! Humans sometimes cant even remain monogomous/faithful yet these creatures are amazingly monogomous. So when people eat a lobster, chances are they are eating another lobsters "life partner." How sad.

 

What really helped me make the connection with fish is one time, I was at a huge grocery store, the kind that sells live fish. They had like 50 rainbow trouts crammed into a small tank. There was literally no room, all each fish could do was swim "on the spot". This struck me as very unkind. I inquired about whether these poor animals were at least fed, and the fish manager informed me that they were never fed once in that tank, so that the staff wouldnt have to clean the s^%t from the tank. I mentioned that it would take days, if not longer before the poor animals were executed by somebody, and that that was a long time for a being to go hungry, and he said, "so what, they're just fish and they are going to die anyway."

 

I made eye contact with one of the fish. His mouth was moving constantly, probably because he was wanting food. But he, like his unfortunate freinds, looked scared. I felt sick inside. If he could talk, make no mistake that he, like all other frightened animals, would beg me for mercy and for help. He would ask me to please help him. I pictured him saying those words to me, since his mouth was opening and closing anyway, and that was it. Having looked at him in the eye, I could never eat another fish again by denying he was somehow less deserving of moral consideration than a chicken or cow. IT is not the fishes fault that he is smaller and has no voice whatsoever. That actually makes them even more deserving of our protection and our voice in their defense.

 

Fish are not kille humanely. they are more intelligent than people commonly realize.

 

So that is my fish story. There is a thread somewhere called "Why not fish". I invite you to read it.

 

As far as the milk and eggs, make no mistake that if you are motivated by ethical/compassionate reasons, it is worse to eat eggs/milk than it is to eat meat to the extent that animals in these industries suffer LONGER than in the flesh industries. At the bottom of each glass of milk or in each piece of cheese or in each scoop of icecream there is a veal calf - there is simply no denying it. I urge you to seriously research the conidtions and lives of dairy cows and egg laying birds. The conclusions you reach will be unequivocal.

 

I know in your intro you mentioned that you are moving toward veganism so you probably already know all of the above in your gut, but I thought I would raise them here anyway. This is, afterall, a website that seeks to not only entertain, but also inform and educate.

 

My personal experience is that I tried for the longest time to justify and rationalize to myself my non-vegan vegetarianness. "At least I am veg, and so at least I am doing more for animals than what most other people in the world do. it is better than nothing." I used to say. "I am eating free range chickens. They dont suffer really, only a little bit when they are killed." But free range is often NOT what we want it to be. And animals still suffer tremendously in the slaughterhouse even if they dont suffer on "free range" farms (although as I just said you cant really trust that they dont suffer there either). See Gail Einztsein's (may have spelled her last name wrong) book Slaughterhouse.

 

In short, I used to justify my "happy dairy cow, free range" chicken until I had to finally stop lying to myself and face the hypocrisy of my free range, happy cow ethics.

 

So there is my story. Maybe you will be able to relate, maybe you wont. But I am happy to have you here nevertheless and will encourage and support your vegan journey, and am glad that you are at least considering these issues as is evidenced by the fact that you are on a vegan board.

[cactus]

Belive me compasion, I hear exactly what your saying. I love any animal...and I can honestly say I love animals more than man.

 

I personaly can't eat lobsters crabs etc either..as they are kinda funny to watch. But I cannot compare a tuna fish to a German Shepard. I'm sorry but I have realistic limits. But it doesn't mean I dont feel the same way...I could never fish for example. The milk and cheese and eggs thing....I dunno. I'm not prepared to give that up tho.

 

As far as animal suffering ie; deers.... do you think hunting should be allowed to control populations so that they don't encounter starvation and all the other assorted terrible suffering from over pop? I mean I could never do it (hunt- even for this intention). I hit my first deer with my car last month and felt terrible. (I actually stroked the things head till it died). But I'm curious as to your idea/perspective on it as one example.

 

That brings me to wonder..... how many vegans here use anything

leather? leather couch.... office chair...wallet...interior of the ol' Lexus? Or even running shoes or dog leashes. Obviously animals had to die for this?

[violet13]

compassionategirl, Jay has habit of misinterpret my message and fight with me.

For example, when I spoke about SOME homeless people with mental problem, Jay quickly accused me of discriminating homeless people.

Somebody needed to point to Jay that Violet said SOME homeless people have mental problem and cannot be responsible pet owners.

I think some reason Jay has personal dislike toward me, that is why he fight with me almost everytime I post my message on this forum.

[violet13]

cactus, would you believe if I tell you consumption of dairy products and eggs is much worse than consumption of meat?

Do you know what happen to millions of newborn male calves in dairy farms?

 

Andy's Story

One fine Spring day, just before Mother's Day two years ago, little Andy was born. A beautiful, baby calf, weighing only 30 pounds.

His large doe-like eyes looked to his mother for first time.

 

A young girl had gotten her first job working part-time, after-school at a dairy farm near the U.S. - Canada border. When Andy's mom began to give birth, it was the first time she'd ever witnessed anything born.

She was in tears when the baby came- and then, to her horror, the farmer took Andy and threw him behind a barn, on top of a "dead pile" of other baby calves who were taken away from their mothers at birth, at let to die.

She couldn't believe what she saw.

The young girl quickly called her favorite teacher, the one who helped her get her job. Her teacher came over to the farm and with the help of the young girl, they snatched baby Andy off the pile of calves and put him in the back seat of her car.

They didn't know what to do with a little calf, still covered in afterbirth, umblical cord dangling from his pink tummy - so they called Farm Animal Safe Haven for help.

 

What this brave young girl witnessed is what happens every day on nearly every farm across the country - calves are either thrown away like garbage, because they have no value, or they are enslaved in small crates to be sold for veal slaughter.

 

www.farmsanctuary.com/media/pr_mario.htm

 

Andy and Mario represent millions (if not billions) of new born male calves

because dairy farmers cannot get milk from cows without making cows pregnant.

Andy and Mario are saved but millions (if not billions) of newborn male calves are killed in most inhumane manner.

When every time you drink milk or eat dairy products, you are promoting chilling brutality of dairy farms.

www.notmilk.com is educational website about dairy products.

Edited February 14, 2006 by violet13

[violet13]

cactus, maybe I am biggest hypocrite on this forum knowing I am contributing to death of sentient creatures.

Yes, I have sweater and winter coats made of wool.

I also have leather shoes but I instantly and completely stop eating animal flesh almost 30 years ago when I attended Animal Rights meeting and saw debeaking of baby chicks on the screen.

Later I stop buying dairy products and eggs after I learned about shocking brutalities in dairy industry and egg industry.

There is no way for us to be 100% pure but when we acknowledge reality of horrible suffering and cruel death of billions of farm animals, we should strive to live cruelty free life style as much as possible.

I keep wearing what I have already but I have no intention to buy wool sweaters, coat and leather items in the future.

[Comet]

..... how many vegans here use anything

leather? leather couch.... office chair...wallet...

 

Ok now I feel guilty I've tried for both ethical reasons and for health reasons to be vegan for a while. But now I feel ashamed that I don't have the money to throw away all my furniture and clothing simply because it came from an animal - does this make me hypocritical?

[_raVen_]

Comet, just do as violet suggested and use your products till they wear out. Then you can replace them with vegan versions

[cactus]

lol...at least I wasn't lynched for the leather comment. But yeah it made me realize, in my mind at least- its hypocrytical. Here I was walking the dogs I love so much..attached by a piece of dead cow....hmmm.

 

And I have been made aware of the suffering that can exist regarding the egg./milk production, I kinda see why someone hits the vegan level. But I was recently wondering if certain consumer options are available to counter/improve this problem.. ie free run eggs... some specific brand of milk producers that are nore ethical etc? i'd appreciate any ideas on that.

 

I mean the way I see it...originally man was intended to hunt/kill animal. Use the hides, meat etc. Because in actuality that's all we really are- a slightly luckier animal....certainly not any more advanced with the way we cause suffering to eachother... infact I believe we are without question the most despicable of all the animals.

 

Most guys I work with hunt.... I can never understand the pleasure in this, of killing. Many tell me its for the meat- but I see the meat waste away in the freezers.

 

- thats makes me wonder if it's more ethical to go and "hunt" the animal cleanly and take responsibility for it's death... or take the cheap ay out "buying it commercially" which causes more suffering apparntly- yet doesn't force that person to commit an act of killing an animal for sport pleasure? Either way.. I see everyones point's here so far.

[compassionategirl]

Cactus, comet, will get back to you soon. I havent considered the hunting for overpopulation problem deeply, but my first reflex reaction, as with any scenario concerning man molesting animals, is "let's leave animals the hell alone!"

 

Violet: Your approach with people here simply isnt productive nor effectve. I urge you to work on your dialogue/conversation skills. If you cant even communicate effectively and productively with vegans, then I doubt you can do it with people who dont have the same fundamental views as you.

 

And I have no intention on banging my head against a wall with you any further, except to say stop yelling at people and biting their heads off without first making sure they support BLOODY SADISTIC TORTURE! I doubt you will find anybody here that meets that criteria.

[Jay]

compassionategirl, Jay has habit of misinterpret my message and fight with me.

LOL. I've gone out of my way to defend you here and this is what I get for my troubles?

 

For example, when I spoke about SOME homeless people with mental problem, Jay quickly accused me of discriminating homeless people.

Somebody needed to point to Jay that Violet said SOME homeless people have mental problem and cannot be responsible pet owners.

What the heck are you talking about? Let me guess, you've mixed me up with some other poster.

 

I think some reason Jay has personal dislike toward me, that is why he fight with me almost everytime I post my message on this forum.

Do what you've got to do Rob. Everyone was right, Violet does have something seriously wrong with her head. I tried to give her far more benefit of doubt than all the other people who just ignore her posts at this point. But I'm done wasting my time.

[madcat]

My theory:

With the whole patriot act vegans/ animal activists being called home land terrorists, this is just a cia infiltration to make us fight amongst ourselves so that we will not unify. Think about it, it all makes sense. If true animal welfare spread across America and hunting was banned, how could Dick Cheney get away with shooting anyone and making it look like an accident?

 

Don’t hate me, I’m just joking.

 

On a serious note, my phone will phones will probably be tapped now and I will be under 24 hour illegal government watch. You guys might not want to talk to me anymore