Overtraining

I go to the gym about 3 days a week. I usually do cardio/weights those days and then another day of more cardio. For me to keep from overtraining I do each bodypart only once a week. I split my exercises into two workouts. back/biceps and chest/delts/triceps. I am curious of how you guys can do these more often than that. To me it's overtraining, I need that much time to rebuild, I am either sore or noticebly weaker if I workout with less recovery time. I also had to split it up this way because I can't do triceps and then chest a few days later because obviously chest workouts include alot of triceps as do shoulders. So, I guess I'm asking "Am I missing something?". How do you guys do it, work out shoulders, then chest a few days later or whatnot. Do different people recover at different paces?

For my training I like to not think of exercises as hitting specific muscular groups, rather hitting different planes of movement/or different techniques. So for me at the moment I train three times a week and this is what this week looks like:

Tuesday:

Speed squat: 5x3x90kg

Speed deadlift: 5x3x125kg

Seated shoulder press: 3x8x67.5kg

Abs

Friday:

Heavy squat 3x5x110kg

Heavy deadlift 3x5x165kg

Bent over row 3x8x83.5kg

Sunday:

Log press: 5x65kg, 2x75kg, 1x85kg, (hopefully, as it would be a pb) 1x95kg, 2x5x70kg

Log floor press (like a bench with a log): Haven't tried this yet but might work up to 100kg or so for sets of 5.

Grip work including static holds and grippers.

I keep the volume pretty low, but make sure that I work really hard on each working set. For you Sean, I would maybe consider rethinking your approach to your training. I used to train with muscular splits like that, but to be honest you will get bigger and stronger using compound movements. And with compound movements its virtually impossible to isolate muscles.

ALso, out of curiousity, why no leg training?

Jonathan

For you Sean, I would maybe consider rethinking your approach to your training. I used to train with muscular splits like that, but to be honest you will get bigger and stronger using compound movements.

Uhm, I see nothing wrong with that split per se, except the lack of a day for legs. There is nothing in that kind of split that excludes compound exercises, is there?

And with compound movements its virtually impossible to isolate muscles.

But with a split like that you dont need to isolate muscles, on chest/trics/delt day you can do exercises that hit all of those muscles, nice stuff like bench and dips and whatnot . Same with backs/bics, barbell rows anyone ?

ALso, out of curiousity, why no leg training?

Yeah, thats allways a good question .

I just prefer a training system that doesn't focus on hitting certain muscles. I don't think it makes much sense, and I think doing 20sets for one muscle is a fast ticket to injury/overtraining.

What I meant about not being able to isolate with compounds is deliberate. ie - muscular splitting doesnt work because compounds are way better, and its more or less impossible to isolate most muscles with compounds.

Jonathan

I just prefer a training system that doesn't focus on hitting certain muscles.

Yes I agree with you. That's exactly why I think the split mentioned above makes sense because it puts muscles that work together on the same day, chest/delts/trics is just another name for push day after all .

I don't think it makes much sense, and I think doing 20sets for one muscle is a fast ticket to injury/overtraining.

Probably, but where did that come into the discussion .

What I meant about not being able to isolate with compounds is deliberate. ie - muscular splitting doesnt work because compounds are way better, and its more or less impossible to isolate most muscles with compounds.

Well if you look closely at the split, you will se that it will allow you to hit all of the muscles for each day with a single compound exercise, so no need for isolations .

For you Sean, I would maybe consider rethinking your approach to your training. I used to train with muscular splits like that, but to be honest you will get bigger and stronger using compound movements.

Uhm, I see nothing wrong with that split per se, except the lack of a day for legs. There is nothing in that kind of split that excludes compound exercises, is there?

 

And with compound movements its virtually impossible to isolate muscles.

But with a split like that you dont need to isolate muscles, on chest/trics/delt day you can do exercises that hit all of those muscles, nice stuff like bench and dips and whatnot . Same with backs/bics, barbell rows anyone ?

 

ALso, out of curiousity, why no leg training?

Yeah, thats allways a good question .

I don't do legs for a few reasons.

One is lack of time. I squeeze into the gym 3 days a week. On the two that I do weights too, I only have enough time to do like 15 min of cardio, so I keep the 3rd for closer to 30 min of cardio.

Another reason is that my legs are already very big. Seriously, they're seriously easily the strongest natural part of my body. When I begin working them out they get huge, and I really don't want to have huge legs.

Another is because I am so afraid of overstressing the knee joints. I have seen my dad go through a knee replacement and am kind of terrified of it. I don't even jog for the same reason, I use an eliptical to go easier on the knees.

Yet another reason is I hate the soreness, and if they get sore I can't do cardio, I don't want to kill the muscles.

I seriously appreciate all feedback, I'm not one of those ego kind of guys who doesn't like critique, so I appreciate it all! Here's my workout that I've been doing. I think that maybe I should focus more on the compound exercises.

For the workout breakdown, I typucally do this:

Day 1

4 sets barbell curls

4 sets dimbell curls(either incline or preacher)

4 sets pulldowns

4 sets rows

3 sets forearm reverse barbell curls

Day 2

4 sets incline dumbell press

4 sets decline or flat bench

4 sets flys

4 sets shoulder press(military or dumbell)

4 sets sidearm dumbell raises(or upright rows)

2 sets shrugs

4 sets behind neck dumbell extentions(or lying tricep extentions)

4 sets tricep pushdowns

4 sets dips

If your Dad has had lots of knee problems and you think it is genetically inherant, you really should do weight bearing exercises for your legs. The very act of placing a load on it and stressing the surrounding muscles will strengthen the bones and ligaments which will prevent knee injuries. I had serious knee problems in my mid teens, caused by cycling (they effectively stopped me cycling - quite frustrating as I was competing at national level) which lasted about 3 years. Since having done squatting, my knees have been in perfect shape.

I am not saying that you need to be knocking out crazy high weights, but a degree of leg work should be in your routine. As regards your legs growing too much, I do doubt that will happen. Again drawing from my own experience, I didnt train my legs for the first year and a bit of training as I thought that they were big and strong enough. It was only when I actually really looked at them that they were small compared to my upper body. They are pretty good now though.

As regards your routine, I think that you are doing too much. You are doing so many sets that there is no way that you would be able to maintain a sufficient intensity to stimulate significant muscle growth. I'm not saying I do things right, but the average length of my sessions is about 2hours!

I would pretty much entirely change your routine. From the exercises that you are doing, it appears that you are trying to hit pretty much every muscle from several different angles. It's just not necessary.

I would suggest a routine like this, based on two workout days a week. I have included some leg work so as to give your joints the necessary stress to prevent injury and strengthen the ligaments.

Day 1:

Bench (barbell or dumbell)

Bent over row, barbell

Narrow grip bench

Powerclean

Abs

Day 2:

Front squat

Deadlift

Push press

Dumbell shoulder press (seated)

Abs

You would want to include periodisation into your routine (ie an increase in weight and decrease in reps over a period) and then change it after 6-8weeks.

If you give me your working weights for the exercises that you do I can try to work them out for the above routine. For things like squats, powercleans and deadlifts you should keep the weight low until you nail the technique.

Refering back to the title of this thread, to be honest one of the reasons why you easily overtrain is that you do an awful lot in each session.

Jonathan

I would pretty much entirely change your routine. From the exercises that you are doing, it appears that you are trying to hit pretty much every muscle from several different angles. It's just not necessary.

I would suggest a routine like this, based on two workout days a week. I have included some leg work so as to give your joints the necessary stress to prevent injury and strengthen the ligaments.

 

Day 1:

 

Bench (barbell or dumbell)

Bent over row, barbell

Narrow grip bench

Powerclean

Abs

 

Day 2:

 

Front squat

Deadlift

Push press

Dumbell shoulder press (seated)

Abs

 

You would want to include periodisation into your routine (ie an increase in weight and decrease in reps over a period) and then change it after 6-8weeks.

If you give me your working weights for the exercises that you do I can try to work them out for the above routine. For things like squats, powercleans and deadlifts you should keep the weight low until you nail the technique.

 

Refering back to the title of this thread, to be honest one of the reasons why you easily overtrain is that you do an awful lot in each session.

 

Jonathan

With the exception of adding legs, this seems like a much easier routine. Although I do actually enjoy working out legs(or I did years ago), so it wouldn't be a miserable thing for me. I also remember reading years ago in a muscle mag that actually working your quads will help out your workout because it releases some more hormones into your system giving your body a bigger boost, don't know the validity to it. But that reason would be good enough to start up.

How many sets and reps are you doing for these?

Any other thoughts on this routine? Not that I'm downplaying Jonathan or anything, just was curious of any feedback. My only fear is that from doing my method that I've been on for I guess 4 months now I have seen pretty good results. I mean I have gotten back to my peak strength from 8 years ago when I worked out really heavy. But I guess there is always the possibility that if this is better then I'd be even bigger now over the last 4 months.

I'll try to post how much weight I do for each exercise too, I have to run now.

sean,

if you got strong off a routine that weak, then you are going to go through the roof off of Jonathan's suggested routine. seriously, you will never come close to your potential with chest flys and 3 different kinds of bicep curls. you really need to hit your legs hard. emphasize hamstring development (romanian deadlifts, glute/ham raises, etc.). i say just try a routine like Jonathan suggested for 8 or 10 weeks and i doubt you'll ever go back to isolation exercises. you look like you got a good frame to work with, good luck.

Yeah everyone is different. One way to find out where your body's limit is, is to try pushing yourself to see what happens. For example, try doing a set of pullups til failure every day for two weeks. If after two weeks your max reps are going up and you're craving doing more pullups every day, then you're probably cut out for high frequency training. Or if after two weeks you're just feeling mentally and physically burnt out on pullups then you'd probably be happier doing training where you get more rest

Now I agree with everything j*****n posted above. The routine he posted looks good, much better than your current one .

I just prefer a training system that doesn't focus on hitting certain muscles. I don't think it makes much sense, and I think doing 20sets for one muscle is a fast ticket to injury/overtraining.

If you do too much too soon it is. But I'm doing 60 sets of chins every other day and I'm definitely not overtraining. Seem to be making the best gains I've made in years. I'm approaching it the same as long distance runners approach adding more miles in their training. In such running it is felt that such high volume is essential but it is not so easy to build up the mileage. Has to be a very slow process.

Of course strength trainers dismiss such "endurance training" as irrelevant. But I think at least 95% of endurance ability is really just having a high strength to weight ratio for whatever movement. Good runner's legs are not actually skinny/weak at all relative to the ROM and their bodyweight.

If your Dad has had lots of knee problems and you think it is genetically inherant, you really should do weight bearing exercises for your legs. The very act of placing a load on it and stressing the surrounding muscles will strengthen the bones and ligaments which will prevent knee injuries.

Jonathan, you're always telling everyone to do leg training. It isn't actually that important.... Some knee problems are definitely made worse with leg strength training. (not all.)

As regards your routine, I think that you are doing too much. You are doing so many sets that there is no way that you would be able to maintain a sufficient intensity to stimulate significant muscle growth.

Strongly disagree. There is no magic intensity necessary to stimulate muscle growth. And a relativey high intensity can actually be maintained across a ridiculous number of sets with sufficient time working into it. Although a week of rest would probably decondition one too much to ever really get up to any real volume.

When I bother to do them dumbell flyes make a huge difference with my bench BTW. They make you a lot stronger at the middle part of the bench which is usually a sticking point. For bench shirt users the middle is never the failure point so they wouldn't be so useful I guess.....

I'm doing 60 sets of chins every other day and I'm definitely not overtraining. Seem to be making the best gains I've made in years.

Any luck with one arm chins? for the past couple of weeks I've been doing one arm chins at half bodyweight w/ a machine assist on Mon, Wed, Fri, and doing a bunch of two arm pullups on Sat/Sun. So far, so good

How about doing your split this way:

Day 1 (Monday or whatever day it falls on): back/biceps

Day 3 (Wednesday or whatever): legs (doing a sensible routine of squats, lunges, etc. can help strengthen the knee. You don't have to do the weights that some guys do that require knee wraps to keep from blowing your knee out. And you don't have to do full squats, which are tough on the tendons and ligaments in the knee, but a good lower body workout can aid in overall muscle building (the growth hormone and testosterone increase you get from doing a workout for these largest muscle groups also helps the upper body grow...and you won't end up looking like these disproportionate guys who spend way too much time on upper body, especially chest, and virtually no time on lower body).

Day 5 (Friday): chest/shoulders/triceps.

When I do a three-day split, that's how I divide it up. Otherwise, I don't have enough recovery for the upper body, and a touchy shoulder doesn't get the recovery it needs.

I'm doing 60 sets of chins every other day and I'm definitely not overtraining. Seem to be making the best gains I've made in years.

 

Any luck with one arm chins? for the past couple of weeks I've been doing one arm chins at half bodyweight w/ a machine assist on Mon, Wed, Fri, and doing a bunch of two arm pullups on Sat/Sun. So far, so good

I haven't tried them in quite a while. I want to build up the two arm stuff for a while and then eventually come back to OACs.

I think that I was overtraining, I've been back into it for 4-5 months or so now and think it's time to try some of your guys' advice. So here's my new routine I'm going to give a shot over a month or so to see how it works. If it doesn't work too well, at least it will be a change of pace to get out of the same workout rut. I did this dfor two days so far and I have found that I was able to maintain a better level of intensity towards the end of the workout, hitting the tris and bis better(for the two isolation exercises).

I picked this one from IDS as it had alot more compound exercises and seems to be similar to a workout I did when I first started working out when I was 18 and had excellent results. Back to basics. And I added legs, not to kill them at all, but to do lighter weight keeping perfect form to keep the muscles pumping.

3 sets of each 7-12 reps

Day 1

Bench Press

Incline Fly

Military Press

DB French PRess

Day 2

Squats

Lunges

Leg Curl

Pull Down

Seated Row

Barbell Curl

Cardio on off days or for 15-20 min before weights.

I'll try to start a journal and keep it up to get results.

that looks better. how many days a week do you plan to lift? how many days off? you should axe the lunges and leg curls and do romanian deadlifts instead. also you could get by with one pulling movement. maybe alternate between pulldowns and rowing. either way you are going to see some great results. good luck.

that looks better. how many days a week do you plan to lift? how many days off? you should axe the lunges and leg curls and do romanian deadlifts instead. also you could get by with one pulling movement. maybe alternate between pulldowns and rowing. either way you are going to see some great results. good luck.

I'll be doing probably every other day. It's hard to keep a steady consistent routine given my insane schedule. I do my best though. Since the back is so large, wouldn't it be worthwhile to do the two pulling exercises which kind of work different parts of the back?