Increasing lean muscle with BW only

[the monkey]

Hey, I am trying to increase my lean muscle % and obtain stronger/bigger muscles (not huge bulk) but using bodyweight exercises and anything that pretty much utilizes gravity and my body as resistance as well as isometrics and an isometric band that i got for free. Is there a way to do this, also how would the nutrition be for a goal such as mine??

Any help would be appreciated, Thanks

[Im Your Man]

That's the kind of training I do since many months, and some periods of no training at all, and it seems to be plenty enough to gain and maintain a decent musculature. In fact that's what you need to do if you don't want huge muscles, just do endurance, long series with light weights or bodyweight, yoga, sports, running, cycling, speed rope, martial arts, all kind of gymnastic exercices and flexibility.

 

Here's a link to previous posts on the same matter:

 

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=13031

 

and inside that post there's another link to another post on same subject.

[veganmaster]

Hey, I am trying to increase my lean muscle % and obtain stronger/bigger muscles (not huge bulk) but using bodyweight exercises and anything that pretty much utilizes gravity and my body as resistance as well as isometrics and an isometric band that i got for free. Is there a way to do this, also how would the nutrition be for a goal such as mine??

Any help would be appreciated, Thanks

 

Read my posts in this thread for detailed references and info:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8318&p=103995#p103995

 

Basically, muscle work does not require anything but your body. I'm focusing on full body muscle contractions (you go from zero to bucketloads of sweat in just a few minutes) + my other focus is on push-ups and squats - you can make them as hard as you want, with goals like 1 armed or 1 legged PUs/squats etc. If you stimulate Muscle protein synthesis regularly, with (low-fat high CHO, moderate PRO) food in your stomach - you will increase PRO stores, especially if you overfeed. It takes energy to work muscles, regardless of whether you are holding something or nothing in your hand. And the bodyweight exercises help strengthen the joints, which is possibly the only shortcoming of static or flowing isometrics.

 

And if you want to gain muscle without FAT gain, the key is very low fat, very high CHO and moderate PRO (and the faster you want it, the more total kcal you eat). Remember, the fat you eat is the fat you wear . Of course that's easier said than done - I love my peanut butter and crackers, but I'm trying to focus on acheiving my goals first.

[threeloaves]

Hey, I am trying to increase my lean muscle % and obtain stronger/bigger muscles (not huge bulk) but using bodyweight exercises and anything that pretty much utilizes gravity and my body as resistance as well as isometrics and an isometric band that i got for free. Is there a way to do this, also how would the nutrition be for a goal such as mine??

Any help would be appreciated, Thanks

I lift during the week, and usually do bodyweight stuff on the weekend.

 

pullups - narrow, and wide grip

pushups

1 leg rows

pistol squats

rx squats

burpees

jump rope

box jumps

crunches

knee raises

 

I use the gym jones workouts as a basis, and mix some things in - check it. You may also be interested in plyometric stuff: here

[the monkey]

And if you want to gain muscle without FAT gain, the key is very low fat, very high CHO and moderate PRO (and the faster you want it, the more total kcal you eat). Remember, the fat you eat is the fat you wear

 

WOW ....maybe that would have helped a lot if i had known before, so you are saying that i can have a high-carb off course all whole grains fruits, natural sweeteners (very little) diet and as long as i decrease my fat intake i would gain lean muscle, definition and decrease my BF%???? that sounds wwwwaaaayyyy too good to be true, perhaps that is why as soon as i started splurging on PB and AB i started gaining some fat

 

Could you elaborate a little more into this veganmaster...it would be extremely appreciated.

[veganmaster]

And if you want to gain muscle without FAT gain, the key is very low fat, very high CHO and moderate PRO (and the faster you want it, the more total kcal you eat). Remember, the fat you eat is the fat you wear

 

WOW ....maybe that would have helped a lot if i had known before, so you are saying that i can have a high-carb off course all whole grains fruits, natural sweeteners (very little) diet and as long as i decrease my fat intake i would gain lean muscle, definition and decrease my BF%???? that sounds wwwwaaaayyyy too good to be true, perhaps that is why as soon as i started splurging on PB and AB i started gaining some fat

 

Could you elaborate a little more into this veganmaster...it would be extremely appreciated.

 

Thanks for the response! Check out what I just wrote in the "can raw make you fat" thread: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=13468&start=15

 

Ah yes, yummy peanut butter, my nemesis. I've been studying metabolism with a vengeance for a few years now (I like to read the full studies myself), so I'm happy to share my hard-earned knowledge.

Muscle gain factors:

1. Total kcal intake.

Whenever you eat more kcal than you expend, you will increase energy stores, in the forms: glycogen, protein, fat. The greater the kcal excess the more energy will build up in your body. The largest muscle protein gains are seen in very high CHO studies, with averages of up to 65 g/d (starch overfeeding studies achieved this with 4300 kcal diets 71% CHO/20% FAT/9% protein). During overfeeding all three energy stores increase, though glycogen stores are limited to 700-1100 grams.

 

2. Ratio of FAT:CHO:PRO

A key insight is that there is a difference in how excess CHO, PRO, and FAT are dealt with by the body. Fat is already in the chemical form of storage, so it takes a mere 3% or so loss of energy to deposit the fat. CHO (& PRO), on the other hand, must be converted to FAT via De Novo Lipogenesis, an inefficient process that uses up to 30% of the energy during the conversion. So right there you can begin to see why eating FAT is logically the best way to increase fat stores. Now, another important factor in this is that as CHO intake increases, less Nitrogen (protein) is excreted by the body (via urine, sweat, etc). So to maximize PRO while limiting FAT you actually want a very high CHO diet with modest protein (90 grams a day is fine - in fact the best studies show 50-65 grams out of 90 grams of protein deposited as muscle, multiply by 5 to get LBM). Now, these diets still included 20% FAT, so the fat gain was at least equal or double the muscle gain - but for overfeeding that's pretty good because I've calculated the FAT:PROTEIN ratio and when fatty diets are used in overfeeding studies, the result can be as much as 13 grams of FAT gained PER gram of muscle protein gained.

 

3. Energy Expenditure/increased protein synthesis - exercise on an empty stomach increases PS, but also protein breakdown, putting the body into a catabolic state unless food is present in the stomach. Exercise burns mostly CHO and FAT, about half of kcal from each. But still, it is quite easy to eat in one mouthful the amount of FAT it took you an hour jogging to burn off. Certainly, if you are in a caloric deficit you'll lose energy stores overall, that's the basic physics, but you certainly influence WHICH energy stores are used via diet. So for example this study:

"Metabolic effects of a mixed and a high-carbohydrate low-fat diet in man"

found a HCLFD to be superior to a mixed diet in terms of muscle gain on a caloric deficit diet (they did lots of cycling on a machine). The interesting thing is that despite a greater kcal deficit in the HC group (-458) compared to the MD (-340), the hi-CHO group gained 17 grams of net protein compared to only 11 grams gained in the mixed diet group. In addition, the CHO group oxidized 80.5 grams of fat while the MD group oxidized 75 grams. In other words, in terms of body recomposition, maximizing CHO, minimizing FAT and getting moderate protein was much more effective despite the fact that the total amount of energy consumed was the same. The HCLFD diet was 17% PRO, 4% FAT, 78%CHO. While just one study, the science is not controversial - here's a practical example of the same thing:

 

"Effects of high-calorie supplements on body composition and muscular strength following resistance training"

 

"BACKGROUND: Seventy-three healthy, male subjects randomly divided into 3 groups participated in a study to determine the effects of 2 high-calorie nutritional supplements on body composition, body segment circumferences, and muscular strength following a resistance-training (RT) program. METHODS: In addition to their normal diets group 1 (CHO/PRO; n=26) consumed a 8.4 Mj x day(-1) (2010 kcal) high calorie, high protein supplement containing 356 g carbohydrate and 106 g protein. Group 2 (CHO; n=25) consumed a carbohydrate supplement that was isocaloric with CHO/PRO. Group 3 (CTRL; n=22) received no supplement and served as a control. All subjects were placed on a 4-day x week(-1) RT program for 8 weeks. RESULTS: Dietary analysis revealed no significant differences in total energy consumption or nutrients at any time in the non-supplemented diets of the 3 groups. Significant (p= or <0.05) increases in body mass (BM) and fat-free mass (FFM) were observed in CHO/PRO and CHO compared to CTRL. Mean (+/- SD) increases in BM were 3.1+/-3.1 kg and 3.1+/-2.2 kg, respectively. Fat-free mass significantly (p= or <0.05) increased 2.9+/-3.4 kg in CHO/PRO and 3.4+/-2.5 kg in CHO. Muscular strength, as measured by a one-repetition maximum in the bench press, leg press, and lat-pull down increased significantly (p= or <0.05) in all groups. No significant differences in strength measures were observed among groups following training. CONCLUSIONS: Results indicate that high-calorie supplements are effective in increasing BM and FFM when combined with RT. However, once individual protein requirements are met, energy content of the diet has the largest effect on body composition."

 

If megadoses of protein built muscle, the high CHO group would not have gotten the best body recomposition - but they did, because high-CHO, low-fat is the best for Maximum Partitioning. Hope that's helpful, what do ya think?

[the monkey]

Thats is absolutely incredible and it makes complete sense. I thank you so much for that as it has clarified my doubts on the whole "carbs need to be eliminated to get definition/bigger muscles" crap that i have read everywhere. Also it is great to read this as my body digests carbs really well and it only digest protein well if there is a lot of carbs together with the meal, however fat and me ..not the best of friends. Again thanks a lot and i will definitely make big, and very good changes in my diet from this point on.

Also i imagine you utilize this approach yourself so i wanted to ask you kind of like what you eat typically if it is not too much to ask and also if it matters the source of the carbohydrates or not as long as it is complex carbs and healthy simple carbs such as fruits, molasses, agave, etc?

[Im Your Man]

(...) as long as it is complex carbs and healthy simple carbs such as fruits, molasses, agave, etc?

 

Molasses are not healthy at all, in fact it's one of the most toxic product on earth, it's worst than sugar becaus eit's simply sugar cane that have been highly processed, which is why it contains so much sulfur, iron and other minerals deposit. And blackstrap molasse is not better, the difference is that it contains less sugar, but to be like that it needs to be even more processed and heated than first molasses.

[the monkey]

Damn.... i had no idea about that, thanks for clarifying I'm your man, i guess i will stay with evaporated cane juice, turbinado brown sugar or agave.

[the monkey]

I'm your man do you have any healthy suggestion to sweeten my oatmeal, home-made bread?

[the monkey]

Veganmaster i have made changes in my diet so that i have complex carbs in every meal of my day with the least amount of fats possible and some protein for example today i have had so far:

 

Breakfast

-Oatmeal with raisins, 1/4 apple, soymilk, and a very small amount of a;lmonds and pecans with a tsp of evaporated cane juice

 

Meal 2

-Clif bar and a small amount of raw oats again with raisins

 

Meal3

-I am having brown basmati rice with sweet peas, corn, carrots and broccoli

[veganmaster]

Thats is absolutely incredible and it makes complete sense. I thank you so much for that as it has clarified my doubts on the whole "carbs need to be eliminated to get definition/bigger muscles" crap that i have read everywhere. Also it is great to read this as my body digests carbs really well and it only digest protein well if there is a lot of carbs together with the meal, however fat and me ..not the best of friends. Again thanks a lot and i will definitely make big, and very good changes in my diet from this point on.

Also i imagine you utilize this approach yourself so i wanted to ask you kind of like what you eat typically if it is not too much to ask and also if it matters the source of the carbohydrates or not as long as it is complex carbs and healthy simple carbs such as fruits, molasses, agave, etc?

 

Thanks so much for your interest - I appreciate it VERY much. The thousands of hours I've spent researching have educated myself but rarely get passed along, because people are so brainwashed with false memes about nutrition. Human metabolism (& nutrition) is actually pretty damn clear, but only if you are willing to dig deep, do the research yourself, and look at the big picture science (especially the few studies using whole-body, or indirect calorimetry). Most nutrition studies are poorly controlled, BS correlational studies whose intent is to support industry interests via lying with statistics. #1 MYTH in nutrition: humans are somehow NOT herbivorous primates like our cousins, chimps, gorillas, etc., - it's insane! The science clearly shows we are biological herbivores who are designed to perfectly process plant foods - and the majority of plant food is very high in CHO, modest in PRO, and low in FAT. #2 myth is that poor health is from lack of nutrients/variety/chemical toxins, when the truth is 99.9% of chronic disease is the inevitable results of putting the wrong fuel (animal foods) in the human gas tank - our herbvorous biology can certainly process animal foods, as we are built Ford-tough by millions of years of evolution - but sooner or later parts of the body breakdown when you energize it with the wrong fuel, especially if you never give your body a rest from animal foods via either exclusively plant foods or fasting.

 

As far as my own habits, I have been experimenting and exercising for a couple years now, and I have basically settled upon a plan for building muscle and minimizing FAT gain. I've reasoned that the fastest way to reach my goals is to make progress everyday.

 

#1 Fat oxidation/minimization: I fast completely until 2 p.m. or so - this burns approximately 30 grams of FAT, 6 g PRO, 60g CHO for someone my size (170). Yes, you lose a slight amount of muscle - but nothing burns fat faster, and notice you lose a lot more FAT than PRO. I have found that fasting is easy, because the body produces chemicals which dampen the appetite (catecholamines). I also try to eat as little FAT as possible during the rest of the day, but I often "falter" and eat peanut butter + fat-free crackers, thus I utilize regular fasting so that as long as I eat less than 50 or so grams of FAT a day, I will not increase FAT stores, and definitely decrease them on strict days. Even during massive overfeeding studies people oxidized at least 20 grams of FAT/d, and as I mentioned previously studies show that with zero fat intake and with total kcal needs met, the body has a net loss of fat of a little over 1 gram/d.

 

#2 2-11p.m. - Energy intake should be significantly higher than Energy Expenditure. Frankly, I'd like to eat as many kcal as I can without getting fat, lol - if the girlfriend remarks about any FAT gain, I know it's time to focus on fasting

Since processed, liquid kcal speeds gastric emptying I use 900 kcal "shakes:"

25 g Soy PRO

200g Maltodextrin (glucose polymers, low in simple sugars)

ZERO added FAT + a little kool-aid flavoring (pure maltodextrin needs help, hehe)

 

My goal is to have at minimum a shake at 2 and 11 p.m. - eating more normal low-fat vegan foods in between. I understand many vegans would rather choose whole-foods, and that will work too, but the fact is the more total High-CHO kcal you take in, the more net protein you will deposit, and I find it very hard to overfeed on low-fat vegan food, for obvious reasons (high fiber, bulk). It's not hard to gain when you are eating milkshakes, colas and doughnuts like an average American lol - obese people indeed do have large accumulations of LBM & even more FAT due to overfeeding on FAT + refined CHO combos - but for maximum muscle partitioning you want to overfeed via liquid kcal, but with an eye on minimizing FAT deposition.

 

#3 Exercise. Significant muscle work, whether via one of my favs: full-body pulsing isometrics (I like to flex my entire body in waves - it can drench you with sweat in minutes) or via push-ups and squats. I actually like using heavy weights too but I'm a hermit with no home gym. But accessories are not necessarrily needed, you can make muscle contractions as difficult as you like. Something to recognize metabolically though, is that exercise increases energy expenditure - so it is vital if you do a ton of exercise that you eat a ton of kcal - exercise does push down the pedal of net protein accretion significantly - but one must remember than basic physics means the more low-fat kcal you consume, the more muscle you will gain. This is why those with naturally big appetites + interest in bodybuilding tend to do so well. In my opinion genetics is overplayed - physics is the same for everyone, and even steroid users built that muscle via megacalorie diets & exercise, not just from a pill. Often guys will talk about their "body types" and their "maximum potential" - and I think it is instructive to realize the science shows that excess energy with be deposited with 75-95% efficiency, depending on the CHO:F:PRO ratio. Think of sumo wrestlers and imagine how much muscle they have accumulated under all that FAT - clearly we don't want all that fat but I think it's useful to recognize they have gotten so huge because excess energy will be deposited into glycogen, FAT & PRO, that's basic physics. Glycogen stores are limited, but FAT & PRO stores are only limited by the health of the organism - so I am still fairly small IMO, but I know if I pursue my goals and overfeed daily while also preventing FAT gain, I will gain PRO - it is a universal law.

 

Obviously, these ideas aren't very popular, because we are hard-wired to love FAT, because it is such a concetrated energy source. To be clear, exercising regularly and eating a very low fat vegan diet will indeed build muscle, that's the beauty of human metabolism - our bodies prefer to maintain our PRO stores - FAT & CHO are our main fuels, after all.

Edited June 20, 2008 by veganmaster

[veganmaster]

Veganmaster i have made changes in my diet so that i have complex carbs in every meal of my day with the least amount of fats possible and some protein for example today i have had so far:

 

Breakfast

-Oatmeal with raisins, 1/4 apple, soymilk, and a very small amount of a;lmonds and pecans with a tsp of evaporated cane juice

 

Meal 2

-Clif bar and a small amount of raw oats again with raisins

 

Meal3

-I am having brown basmati rice with sweet peas, corn, carrots and broccoli

 

Sounds fine - I think as long as you understand how body recomposition works, then you can track your progress and make adjustments - as long as you aren't gaining much FAT increase your total kcal, etc. - if you get chubby exercise more and/or throw in some fasting for quick FAT oxidation. Personally, I wouldn't mind doing traditional bodybuilder method of massive overfeeding (high CHO, low fat of course), getting huge, then cutting down - but the GF won't have it So I fast to burn the fat. There is one Swedish trainer with a pretty good understanding of these issues, his blog is http://www.leangains.blogspot.com/ - he helps clients melt the FAT while often building muscle via short-term fasting (not vegan-style of course).

[the monkey]

veganmaster but wouldn't the fasting slow the metabolism??

[Im Your Man]

I'm your man do you have any healthy suggestion to sweeten my oatmeal, home-made bread?

 

To sweeten oatmeal, maple syrup is delicious. It's natural but is boiled before canned.

You want to sweeten home-made bread? Bread is good without added salt nor sugar. But if you want to add a sweet taste, you can put a bit of agave nectar or a few drops of stevia, ... or you can make banana bread with carob chunks or raisins, or grated carrots and potato.

 

Here's an old post on Natural Sweeteners

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10649

 

About juice fasting slowing down metabolism... check out Lean&Green Juice Fasting Blog or mine, it gives lots of energy because you can drink as often as you like all day long providing energy from fruits so it doesn't not slow down metabolism

[the monkey]

That actually sounds like a grat idea I'myourman, specially for dinner where i tend to not know what to eat and just eat a lot and plus i love making myself a papaya smoothie with just frozen papaya and water. Also i can try other fruits, and about the sweetener is just for my oatmeal but i got some agave nectar which i actually liked a lot. As i don't plan to bake that much , i will just do as you said which sounds much better, i got two questions though (sorry for being a pain) can i just mix any fruit in my smoothie/juice and the other one, where do i find your blog or lean and green's??

[the monkey]

I found it, those are some very impressive results of the juice fasting. I'm your man i am gfonna ask you the same question i asked Lean and Green, can i put any kind of fruits veggies on the shakes i make? Can i also add some oatmeal or other grain/protein powder to my shakes or can i use soy milk other fruit juices as the base? What i plan to do is replace at least one meal a day with a shake, especially dinner and breakfast some days or lunch, would that work or does it have to be no food at all because that would be a problem due to my parents.

[Im Your Man]

You can do what you want Monkey, do strictly only juices, or replace only one meal/day by a juice or smoothie, but in that case it wouldn't be a juice fast at all. The term "fasting" is for a very simple diet, such as only water, or only fruits, or only liquids, etc...

Yes you can use soymilks and oatmeal in your smoothies but the ideal is to use only raw, unprocessed wholefoods such as fruits and veggies to make your juices instead of juices sold in stores, water instead of soymilk from the grocery or make your own soy milk with whole soy beans, raw protein powder (such as hemp or spirulina) instead of protein isolates such as soy protein isolate... All those details will make that it's alkaline, not acidic, so so it will clean, not intoxicate. Because "fasting" is usually also for "cleansing".

 

Yu can find Lean&Green juicefast blog there : viewtopic.php?f=24&t=13520

And mine: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=10701&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=30

 

Hope you can find inspiration on our blogs.

[vegetus25]

veganmaster,

 

What gains in muscle and strength have you had since following this pattern of eating and working out?

 

Veg

[cubby2112]

Veganmaster, your posts are intriguing. I have been researching diets lately similar to the one you have been talking about. I am one of those people who has a limitless appetite, so I am perfect for doing that diet on exclusively whole foods.

 

What do you think of a diet which consists of mainly vegetables, fruit, legumes and grains with a little bit of flaxseed thrown in? Is there a strong enough reason to focus on the higher carbohydrate and lower protein foods in those groups to assist in the gain of LBM? Or would I be fine so long as I select from those groups but keep my fat fairly low? It seems from the studies you have shown and what you have been saying the the CHO (I had never seen it abbreviated like this and was confused for a few seconds) to FAT ratio is the most important thing and the protein can be anywhere up to roughly 20% of calories (currently, it is 15-20% of mine) and still have roughly the same effect as if the PRO is 5% or so.

 

Feel free to post any other studies you find important that are along these lines or send them to me, I love reading studies.

[cubby2112]

I found this study on AJCN. That site is much better than other study sites I have tried.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/64/6/850?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=%22low+fat%22+testosterone&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

 

So according to this study, higher fiber diets allow more unbound testosterone to flow in the body while simultaneously reducing the amount of testosterone excreted while high fat diets do pretty much the same thing for types of estrogen. Is this correct to assume? This contradicts most of what I have read about fiber decreasing testosterone and fat increasing it, but makes sense when you consider that men on vegan diets generally have higher levels of testosterone. This could be due to the higher levels of fiber and the typically lower levels of fat.

 

Hormone production is the primary factor making me wary of a lower fat diet and if I can find more studies such as this one, it will do a lot in making me less reluctant to try a lower fat diet.

[the monkey]

I think that a low fat and high carb/protein diet is not only better for health but it is also more enjoyable (at least for me), all those oats....bananas....and low fat soymilk.....

[veganmaster]

veganmaster,

 

What gains in muscle and strength have you had since following this pattern of eating and working out?

 

Veg

 

First let me say that I'm a hermit, so I exercise at home. This led me to achieve my first muscle/strength gains using isometrics/flowing isometrics, which is to say muscle contraction without weights But I've only recently become more sure about what works best for me. I'm at 5'11 170 right now, which was my highest pre-vegan weight, but it's quite a difference because now I've got some muscles - though I still have fat to lose. So I've got a long way to go, and have a couple injuries I'm slowly healing, but I feel like I've finally passed the beginners stage, finally build a new foundation of muscle and metabolism knowledge that will help me achieve my short term goal (180 ripped). I have binders full of scientific studies on metabolism/exercise, 1 folder is overfeeding, 1 exercise, 1 on mostly protein, though of course they often interlap. My knowledge on metabolism has solidified, and I'm carefully healing weak points (left foot, right hand) with full body muscle contraction and bodyweight push-ups/squats. Basically, I'm trying to be patient while my foot and hand strengthen - I am a tennis lover, rated about 4.5, and I havent been able to play for almost a year. But my goal is to be back on the courts before summer's out. I had been playing tennis on weekend with no activity during the week - plus I ignored the warning pains

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I've just graduated from beginner, but I'll post some pics once I trim more fat off. I fast during the weekday until 1-3 p.m., plus I try to eat less than 10g of fat a day, without counting kcal... hmm maybe I should fast longer lol

[veganmaster]

Veganmaster, your posts are intriguing. I have been researching diets lately similar to the one you have been talking about. I am one of those people who has a limitless appetite, so I am perfect for doing that diet on exclusively whole foods.

Or would I be fine so long as I select from those groups but keep my fat fairly low? It seems from the studies you have shown and what you have been saying the the CHO (I had never seen it abbreviated like this and was confused for a few seconds) to FAT ratio is the most important thing and the protein can be anywhere up to roughly 20% of calories (currently, it is 15-20% of mine) and still have roughly the same effect as if the PRO is 5% or so.

 

Feel free to post any other studies you find important that are along these lines or send them to me, I love reading studies.

 

Hehe, "CHO" - yes my nutrition degree is mostly home grown, with perhaps "unique" abbreviations/methods I use in my personal files LOL. My favorite thing about the internet is all the full scientific studies available for reading - if you have a taste for it you can really educate yourself on any topic without the propaganda (in fact the truth is often unpopular, as vegans know well)! I was going for a second degree for "Registered Dietitian" (I be gots English degree) but I quickly saw how industry-supportive colleges and their textbooks have to be to keep the money flowing to them. And the big money is in meat/dairy/junk food. Plus I was a fairly new vegan so I just couldn't swallow all that B.S.

What do you think of a diet which consists of mainly vegetables, fruit, legumes and grains with a little bit of flaxseed thrown in? Is there a strong enough reason to focus on the higher carbohydrate and lower protein foods in those groups to assist in the gain of LBM?What do you think of a diet which consists of mainly vegetables, fruit, legumes and grains with a little bit of flaxseed thrown in? Is there a strong enough reason to focus on the higher carbohydrate and lower protein foods in those groups to assist in the gain of LBM?

 

Yes, the evidence directly indicates that a higher CHO:F ratio leads to MORE muscle gain - as seen in my previous references. Here is another gold-standard study using whole-room calorimetry:

 

"Fat and carbohydrate overfeeding in humans: different effects on energy storage"

Horton et al.

 

Table 1 of the study illustrates the reality of this (they directly measure the output of gases from the body, thus it is very well controlled compared to nearly all nutrition studies, which tend to be correlational and out-patient/survey):

 

They overfed two groups (Lean & Obese) by 50% for 14d using either all CHO or all FAT; thus both groups had the same PRO intake. The data shows these increases in energy stores:

 

Lean Subjects: +50% CHO = +1.09 kg FAT +1.38 kg FFM

Obese Subjects: +50% CHO = +2.06 kg FAT +1.41 kg FFM

 

Lean Subjects:+50% FAT = +1.21 kg FAT +1.10 kg FFM

Obese Subjects:+50% FAT = +1.90 kg FAT +1.08 kg FFM

 

Notice that nearly 30% more muscle is deposited during CHO overfeeding versus isocaloric FAT overfeeding. And not only that, those lean subjects doing CHO overfeeding GAINED MORE MUSCLE THAN FAT. Although Obese subjects gained about the same amount of FAT on both CHO- and FAT- overfeeding (2.06 & 1.90 kg), the CHO group gained about 1 lb more muscle. I highly recommend getting the full study and reading through it, there are many striking charts, etc.

 

These results, check Table 6 too, are not unusual. FAT is deposited with ~97% efficiency, CHO and PRO lose almost 1/3 of their energy in being converted to FAT via De Novo Lipogenesis. The body adjusts to high-CHO by burning mostly CHO for energy (usually the mix is almost half CHO, half FAT) - in fact in less that 1 week a study on glycogen storage capacity showed the subjects oxidizing up to 1000 grams a day (+4000 kcal)! The key point in all this is that both groups had the same PRO intake AND the same total kcal intake - yet the results of CHO overfeeding are clearly much better than FAT overfeeding, in terms of the bodybuilders goal of increased muscle mass and minimized FAT mass. This is all elementary, and makes total sense to me because I've studied basic metabolism and nutrition so intensively. While the truth is somewhat complex, one need not be a nutrition nerd to understand the basics of muscle building. There basically 3 factors:

#1. Total kcal intake - surplus energy = increased storage of PRO/FAT/Glycogen

#2. Ratio of CHO/PRO/FAT: my overview of overfeeding studies plus confirming studies such as the one above show a clear pattern: the more CHO and less FAT, the more muscle and less FAT gained. Plus a couple starch-based 4300 kcal overfeeding studies* using 90 g PRO, 759 g CHO & 95g FAT have shown muscle capture rates of up to 66% - and what I mean is 60-70 grams out of 90 were deposited into PRO stores. And since we're talking actual net PRO you multiply by 5 to get LBM = ~300 g of muscle/d. Yes, that's more tha 1/2 lb of muscle a day (along with even more FAT because, as you may notice 95 grams of FAT is still enough to grow FAT stores). So 90 grams of PRO is plenty - increasing total CHO maximized nitrogen (PRO) retention. Now remember that these studies, and many of the overfeeding studies do not include exercise, other than perhaps enough to simulate normal activity levels.

 

* "Effect of Carbohydrate Overfeeding on Whole Body and Adipose Tissue Metabolism in Humans"

#3 Muscle work. Intense muscle contraction increases both PRO synthesis and PRO degradation - leading to a negative balance until food is present. The increase lasts 24-48 hours, and can help shift body recomposition in the right direction. But too much exercise and too high FAT or PRO intake will slow gains compared to a high CHO diet. To be sure, anyone eating whole food and satisfying their hunger gets enough PRO for muscle building - but the facts reveal that we can use knowledge of how metabolism works to put us in the driver's seat. After all, Dr. McDougall's saying "the fat you eat is the fat you wear" - is actually a useful, practical meme reflecting the more complex truth: lipids are already in the chemical form of storage, so all it takes is the energy to transport it to storage. And even when CHO intake overcomes glycogen stores, up to 1/3 of the energy is lost via DNL conversion - thus it's easy to understand why eating FAT is the #1 way to gain FAT.

 

Obviously, the only knowledge truly required for big muscle gain is the classic mantra: eat big, lift big (overfeeding + exercise). But I've found studying metablism really solidified my understanding of nutrition and body composition, and even physics - it really clarifies the WHY of increases/decreases in energy storage. And with that info you can manage recomposition using well-established facts of metabolism, I think the best way of researching is to ignore expert "opinions" and focus on the big picture evidence, which shows that if our overall goal is increased muscle mass and minimized body fat, then we should focus on high-CHO intake, very low fat intake and moderate PRO intake - and it is not coincidence that such a diet is exactly what our biology is adapted to - a high plant food diet.

[the monkey]

veganmaster would a high carbo, moderate protein and minimum fat result in maintenance of muscle and loss of fat if it was a lets say a 1,500 calorie with about less than 10g of fat as you mentioned?