MUST READ FOR ALL OF US!!!!

[Patrick]

http://www.naturalnews.com/020550.html

[DV]

Here is some information about the author. His first book has been on my radar for some time. I'd have to read it before I could really evaluate his theories. There are a few PhDs and MDs, amongst others, who have written some convincing books that demonize or celebrate certain substances. I wish they were all true as that would make health decisions simple - avoid this, eat that, live long and disease-free. In the end, they try to simplify extraordinary processes (disease, human metabolism) by picking one substance (man-made, residing in food or manufactured by the body) and making an argument for a cause-and-effect scenario when there may only be a weak correlation.

 

I think we're still in the dark ages concerning disease and nutrition. We could be paralyzed by fear if we took every interview like that one to heart, so it's important to dissect this information with skepticism - as we should be doing with all information. I found some outright untruths in his interview as well as some intriguing ideas. The problem with many of these types of books is that someone with a lot of expertise in one area starts giving advice/explanations in an other area and then loses credibility when some of it is untrue. Once you uncover one poorly researched or false chapter in a book, how do you judge the rest of it, especially if you don't have the time or ability to check all of the references yourself?

[Patrick]

DV,

 

I agree with you are saying, in particualr in this day and age. I have read a lot about him, but agree with many areas, in particular with the dangers of vaccinations.

 

Patrick

[DaN]

Yes I agree too, but then none of us have ever studied it (I presume) so maybe we should be more inclined to believe him, as he clearly has.

[DV]

Patrick,

 

If you believe that vaccines are dangerous then you may want to research what happened when an anti-vaccination movement swept the former USSR in the 1980s. A diphtheria epidemic started in 1987 and returning soldiers from Afghanistan introduced the strain that would spread to more than 12,000 cases by 1991 and was in every state by 1994 (the Ukraine alone had 50,000 cases by 1992). In some states, the death rate for those who got diphtheria was 23%. Even more heart-breaking was their re-emergence of polio. Tajikistan was unfortunate to get hit with the most virulent poliovirus type 1 which spread to the Ukraine and did indeed paralyze some children. Thankfully, the type 3 took hold next in Uzbekistan so the 146,000 children who got polio there between 1993 and 1994 did not become paralyzed. If it wasn't for the massive vaccination programs underwritten by European and North American countries in the 1990s, who knows how many more children would have risked death or paralyzation at the hands of the anti-vaccination movement brought on by a few prominent "doctors." Those doctors, as well as Russell Blaylock, were either willfully ignorant or truly unethical.

 

If I had young children, I would not let them go to a school where unvaccinated children play. We've at least still got it right in hospitals since you need to have all common childhood vaccinations in order to give direct patient care. These "doctors" should stop demonizing life-saving substances to sell books and look for the real culprits behind ADHD, autism, Gulf War Syndrome, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and ALS - but that would take real time and effort and the Mercola Institute wouldn't be singing his praises. Sorry for the rant, but when people start talking about vaccines and all the unfounded theories of the above horrors, they usually fail to look beyond their borders and see the very real and direct horrors of unvaccinated children.

[Patrick]

DV, I hear what you are saying, but do not agree with you. That's like saying you wouldn't allow your children to play with HIV infected children, or swim in a pool, etc. etc.

As for the Polio epdemic, it has been stated time and time again that Polio became more serious of an issue during times of actual vaccinations against the illness. As for diphterie, it has mainly to do with sanitary, ie. unsanitary conditions. But that would be too long of an explanation here.

By the way, I am not saying get rid of vaccines, the mere fat of the adjuvants within the vaccines are causing a tremendous illness. The Formaldehyde, Aluminium, Mercury. These are horrible toxins. Do you know how many children have been unnecessarily exposed and have lifelong compications? How is then that explained?

Regarding GWS, do you know how many people have died or have suffered leukemia and other horrible illnesses from such vaccinations? Too many.

 

By the way, he is not the only person who has stated this. Do a search on Dr. Buchwald.

 

http://www.vran.org/vaccines/doctors/blaylock-covup.htm

[Patrick]

Here is some information about the author. I found some outright untruths in his interview as well as some intriguing ideas.

 

DV,

 

I would be interested to read your views with which ideas you see as being "outright untruths" and while some are intriguing?

Thanks

Patrick

[DV]

Patrick, I really like the topic of vaccination and wish we could have a face to face conversation as it would be so much easier to talk about complex issues. I may have an unfair advantage in that I've had a strong interest in epidemiology and have looked at both sides of the vaccination vs. anti-vaccination debate for more than a few years. I've also been at the bedside of patients who have died of infection that a vaccination would have avoided - some unusual cases but they stick with you for life. I realize that polio was on the decline once community hygiene improved in the U.S. and other areas. However, eradication of polio only happened when a high percentage of the population was vaccinated. That is the reason I gave recent examples of what can happen when we let even a low to moderate percentage of a population fail to get vaccinated.

 

As for examples of the outright untruths, they are too difficult to explain in depth in a written form (mainly because I'm getting cramped from typing today). Basically, I see a lot of correlation sensationalized into causation - which is really disappointing in a medical doctor who chooses to dazzle with a little bit of information rather than explain very complex processes.

 

I don't expect to change anyone's mind concerning vaccinations (although I hope to) but I think that if you believe that vaccinations are unhealthy then you owe it to yourself and the innocent children who depend on you to get BOTH sides of the story. Again, I wish this topic could be discussed in a less restrained medium.

[Patrick]

I don't expect to change anyone's mind concerning vaccinations (although I hope to) but I think that if you believe that vaccinations are unhealthy then you owe it to yourself and the innocent children who depend on you to get BOTH sides of the story. Again, I wish this topic could be discussed in a less restrained medium.

 

Hi DV,

We would definitely have an interesting conversation. No doubt about that. Certainly, it would be better to discuss this topic in another way aside from here. I had a sense that you are viewing it from an epidemiological perspective. That's great, really is. I am not a Dr., by any means, although I love to read scientific journals, etc. But I have seen first hand what Anthrax causes. It's horrifying. It's interesting to note that many of America's men and women who are overseas in unfamiliar territory come home sick after being injected multiple vaccines, (as high as 20 vaccines within a short, short period of time) and then get denied treatment and are kicked to the curb like a rag. And then they are told it is psychosomatic. We both have seen bad things happen in life. As I stated earlier, I am not necessarily opposed to vaccinations, but am 100% opposed to the adjuvants in those vaccines. You can not deny the fact (I sure hope you don't, if you do please inform yourself more regarding these substances) that these adjuvants are highly toxic substances which alter human behavior and suppress a person's immunity.

 

There are many personal stories out there and I could send you tons of links describing the pain and suffering babies, adolescents and adults go through.

Do you really believe that it's wise to innoculate a child with 25 vaccines before they turn 2 years old. I hope you don't.

Take Care

 

Beneath is a link that leads to many discussions about our topic of discussion.

Stay well.

Patrick

 

http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/vaccine_support_org.htm

[Vegan Joe]

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd71/siony_bucket/prayers_in_wind88.jpgI know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know. I know I know.

[Couture547]

Soon enough they'll have anti cancer, heart disease, std, aids, obesity, hair loss, ect. Vacinations and we'll allso be safe eating all GMO foods that are government makes for are safety. Nature made a big mistake and only humanity can fix it with living even further away from the way nature intented. Not to worry humans have a great track record at fixing problems.

[DaN]

Is it me or did the last two posts not make any sense?

[Patrick]

Is it me or did the last two posts not make any sense?

 

Hi Dan,

 

yeah I just didn't bother answering it. I meant the conversation to be informative. That's all.

 

But regarding MSG, aspartame and other hidden gluatmates, I would read up on it if I were you.

 

Patrick

[DaN]

I have avoided Aspartame for a long time.Id rather have good old sugar.Not sure what the others you list are, but its unlikely I eat them becasue 90% of my diet is now pure unprocessed foods.

 

Only processed foods I eat are cereal bars (which have long ingredient list) and some of my vegan dinners like bean burgers, fake meat etc.But I will look it up.

 

[DV]

I don't expect to change anyone's mind concerning vaccinations (although I hope to) but I think that if you believe that vaccinations are unhealthy then you owe it to yourself and the innocent children who depend on you to get BOTH sides of the story. Again, I wish this topic could be discussed in a less restrained medium.

 

Hi DV,

We would definitely have an interesting conversation. No doubt about that. Certainly, it would be better to discuss this topic in another way aside from here. I had a sense that you are viewing it from an epidemiological perspective. That's great, really is. I am not a Dr., by any means, although I love to read scientific journals, etc. But I have seen first hand what Anthrax causes. It's horrifying. It's interesting to note that many of America's men and women who are overseas in unfamiliar territory come home sick after being injected multiple vaccines, (as high as 20 vaccines within a short, short period of time) and then get denied treatment and are kicked to the curb like a rag. And then they are told it is psychosomatic. We both have seen bad things happen in life. As I stated earlier, I am not necessarily opposed to vaccinations, but am 100% opposed to the adjuvants in those vaccines. You can not deny the fact (I sure hope you don't, if you do please inform yourself more regarding these substances) that these adjuvants are highly toxic substances which alter human behavior and suppress a person's immunity.

 

There are many personal stories out there and I could send you tons of links describing the pain and suffering babies, adolescents and adults go through.

Do you really believe that it's wise to innoculate a child with 25 vaccines before they turn 2 years old. I hope you don't.

Take Care

 

Beneath is a link that leads to many discussions about our topic of discussion.

Stay well.

Patrick

 

http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/vaccine_support_org.htm

 

Patrick,

 

Unfortunately, knowing all about the numerous claims by Shirley LIpshutz-Robinson does not lead me to any discussions concerning this topic. She's down there with the Mercola foundation, spreading fear and misinformation. However, if you do a PubMed search, you will find over 1,000 studies concerning vaccines and their side effects. Many governments have spent millions of dollars over the past 2 decades dispelling the myths surrounding vaccinations and every country has found the same conclusions. While no vaccine is 100% risk free and some very serious side effects can occur in a very, very small percentage of people - the morbidity and mortality associated with not vaccinating populations is of much more significant risk (look at what happened to the former USSR in the 1990s). A review of the research shows that specifically, no cause-and-effect can be found between vaccinations and autism, ADHD, asthma and other childhood diseases. If these childhood diseases were not commonly diagnosed at the same age when children receive their vaccinations then these myths probably would not have started.

 

Certainly, the adjuvants in vaccinations may be the trigger in some children's autism but it would be difficult to pinpoint vaccination exposure versus other environmental exposure - especially since no one knows the trigger. If it were indeed mercury then then children world wide who eat a diet high in fish would see an increase in autism as well, which may be true. So, if you're genetically susceptible to autism you may as well find another planet to inhabit as this one is completely contaminated with heavy metals and neurotoxins.

 

From a purely biological point of view, the rise in autism and ADD/ADHD and asthma and cancers and Alzheimer's, etc. correlates with the fact that we have overcome nature and used man-made technology to allow the weak to survive birth and childhood and we allow more people to live long enough to see what diseases might emerge in the older decades. Additionally, we have more fathers over the age of 40 (with increased DNA fragmentation on older sperm) which studies have shown to increase the risk of the child developing autism, schizophrenia and other genetically-linked diseases. Easy to read story from the NYT here.

 

I realize that people want risk-free living and simple answers. Unfortunately, human physiology and interactions with our environment are too complex to always yield simple answers.

[Patrick]

DV,

 

I don't have to inhabit another planet. I'm content where I am. I'm definitely not going to get into a written argument here. Your views are different than mine. That's ok. But I think you are viweing it very subjectively. You keep refering back to the Soviet Union and have not substantiated any untruths, just written manutia. In any case, MSG, aspartame, adjuvants in vaccines, (by the way there is a difference between ethylmercury & methylmercury). You are referring to fish eaters.

 

As I said before I am not against vaccines if they are clean with no crap adjuvants. But I am definitely against vaccinating children with double-digit vaccines before their immunity and brains develop, paticularly with thimerosal, aluminum, fomaldehyde, eggwhite proteins, etc. etc.. I guess the articles haven't told you anything.

Maybe another link you could look at and see the cause and effect this stuff does.

 

http://www.thinktwice.com/

 

That's all I am saying to this subject . We could be going (and probably would be going 'round and 'round) and be chasing our own tails like a puppy.

[DV]

Patrick, I was not aware that you were susceptible to autism. I'm sorry if you were upset by my comment that "those who are genetically susceptible to autism may as well find another planet to inhabit." I was speaking broadly, as I do in many posts, because this is an open forum.

 

I did read your links, which broadens the conversation since every disease process blamed on the adjuvants in vaccinations have their own websites (some with solid information, some without). If you research any one of these diseases (I chose autism), you will find numerous theories for cause of disease. There is one which pointed to a higher correlation between autism and children exposed to methylmercury, which bioaccumulates. Ethylmercury does not have that characteristic and has not been shown to be damaging. Therefore, fish eating has stronger correlation to neurological damage than vaccinations.

 

While I appreciate that you've provided links, they have not given much information. The last link has a section for each of the diseases and "scientific studies" - very disappointing since I was hoping to see some scientific studies but instead found some studies but mostly reports to committees and opinions. Additionally, the studies did not show cause-and-effect.

 

As for my subjectivity, that's what happens after you've viewed something objectively and then come to a conclusion. I've reviewed the information on both sides (long before this thread) and came to a conclusion that the adjuvants in vaccinations are not responsible for increasing the rates of the numerous diseases cited by your sources. I think that those who contributed to the thiomersal controversy topic on Wikipedia used some very good sources.

 

As for your statement - "Do you really believe that it's wise to innoculate a child with 25 vaccines before they turn 2 years old. I hope you don't." I went to the CDC website and viewed the recommended vaccinations for children age 0-6 yrs. There are 11 different types of vaccines recommended and some come as a series. While I could not find any combination that would put a 2 year-old child at 25, I did find that 17 looks to be accurate for a healthy child without underlying diseases. Do I think that's wise? Yes, I do.

[inteja]

Regarding the vaccination debate, here's a recent interesting story:

Bad Science: It's not what the papers say, it's what they don't

[Patrick]

DV,

 

I hear a bit of sarcasm in your writing. I was and am not at all offended by your style. As you stated this is an open forum. Absolutely! After all we are all adults, heh? To answer your question whether I am susceptible to autism? No, I am not suscebtible to it, at least I do not think I am. Who knows what will occur down the line to any of us. Nonetheless, throughout this discussion, you have not mentioned anything critical as to what may be the cause for many illnesses children, adolescents as well as adults suffer. What I am gathering in your words regarding the GWS dilemma is that it's "just" something inherently given, or passed down the DNA line. There are just too many facts out there that dilute your point, and I am not only mentioning well known doctors, but also scientists who deal with this day in and day out. The only aspect you are taking into consideration is what the Rx companies are posting. By the way, there are never any independent agencies that conduct independent tests for specific vaccines. They are all driven by the Rx companies. So much for true stats. Plus, not once has there been a test depicting (forget placebos) unvaccinated and vaccinated kids. The Rx companies only "suspect" reactions after a dose of 3 consecutive shots within a given timeperiod. And only then will they suspect possible problems. DV, I am sorry, but citing Wikipedia or any other "inside sponsored" agency does not hold merit.

We are on complete opposite ends on this matter, and both of us have a right to view matters the way we choose. Is mine correct? Who knows. Is yours? Who knows? BUt I would definitely not innoculate an individual not knowing how and what the adjuvants may cause in a person.

As to injea's linked article, interesting. I try consider the source before anything.

[Patrick]

DV,

 

I hear a bit of sarcasm in your writing. I was and am not at all offended by your style. As you stated this is an open forum. Absolutely! After all we are all adults, heh? To answer your question whether I am susceptible to autism? No, I am not suscebtible to it, at least I do not think I am. Who knows what will occur down the line to any of us. Nonetheless, throughout this discussion, you have not mentioned anything critical as to what may be the cause for many illnesses children, adolescents as well as adults suffer. What I am gathering in your words regarding the GWS dilemma is that it's "just" something inherently given, or passed down the DNA line. There are just too many facts out there that dilute your point, and I am not only mentioning well known doctors, but also scientists who deal with this day in and day out. The only aspect you are taking into consideration is what the Rx companies are posting. By the way, there are never any independent agencies that conduct independent tests for specific vaccines. They are all driven by the Rx companies. So much for true stats. Plus, not once has there been a test depicting (forget placebos) unvaccinated and vaccinated kids. The Rx companies only "suspect" reactions after a dose of 3 consecutive shots within a given timeperiod. And only then will they suspect possible problems. DV, I am sorry, but citing Wikipedia or any other "inside sponsored" agency does not hold merit.

We are on complete opposite ends on this matter, and both of us have a right to view matters the way we choose. Is mine correct? Who knows. Is yours? Who knows? BUt I would definitely not innoculate an individual not knowing how and what the adjuvants may cause in a person.

As to injea's linked article, interesting. I try consider the source before reading anything.

[Patrick]

DV,

 

I hear a bit of sarcasm in your writing. I was and am not at all offended by your style. As you stated this is an open forum. Absolutely! After all we are all adults, heh? To answer your question whether I am susceptible to autism? No, I am not suscebtible to it, at least I do not think I am. Who knows what will occur down the line to any of us. Nonetheless, throughout this discussion, you have not mentioned anything critical as to what may be the cause for many illnesses children, adolescents as well as adults suffer. What I am gathering in your words regarding the GWS dilemma is that it's "just" something inherently given, or passed down the DNA line. There are just too many facts out there that dilute your point, and I am not only mentioning well known doctors, but also scientists who deal with this day in and day out. The only aspect you are taking into consideration is what the Rx companies are posting. By the way, there are never any independent agencies that conduct independent tests for specific vaccines. They are all driven by the Rx companies. So much for true stats. Plus, not once has there been a test depicting (forget placebos) unvaccinated and vaccinated kids. The Rx companies only "suspect" reactions after a dose of 3 consecutive shots within a given timeperiod. And only then will they suspect possible problems. DV, I am sorry, but citing Wikipedia or any other "inside sponsored" agency does not hold merit.

We are on complete opposite ends on this matter, and both of us have a right to view matters the way we choose. Is mine correct? Who knows. Is yours? Who knows? BUt I would definitely not innoculate an individual not knowing how and what the adjuvants may cause in a person.

As to injea's linked article, interesting. I try consider the source before reading anything.

[Patrick]

DV,

 

I hear a bit of sarcasm in your writing. I was and am not at all offended by your style. As you stated this is an open forum. Absolutely! After all we are all adults, heh? To answer your question whether I am susceptible to autism? No, I am not suscebtible to it, at least I do not think I am. Who knows what will occur down the line to any of us. Nonetheless, throughout this discussion, you have not mentioned anything critical as to what may be the cause for many illnesses children, adolescents as well as adults suffer. What I am gathering in your words regarding the GWS dilemma is that it's "just" something inherently given, or passed down the DNA line. There are just too many facts out there that dilute your point, and I am not only mentioning well known doctors, but also scientists who deal with this day in and day out. The only aspect you are taking into consideration is what the Rx companies are posting. By the way, there are never any independent agencies that conduct independent tests for specific vaccines. They are all driven by the Rx companies. So much for true stats. Plus, not once has there been a test depicting (forget placebos) unvaccinated and vaccinated kids. The Rx companies only "suspect" reactions after a dose of 3 consecutive shots within a given timeperiod. And only then will they suspect possible problems. DV, I am sorry, but citing Wikipedia or any other "inside sponsored" agency does not hold merit.

We are on complete opposite ends on this matter, and both of us have a right to view matters the way we choose. Is mine correct? Who knows. Is yours? Who knows? BUt I would definitely not innoculate an individual not knowing how and what the adjuvants may cause in a person.

As to injea's linked article, interesting. I try consider the source before reading and disputing/agreeing on anything.

[Patrick]

DV,

 

I hear a bit of sarcasm in your writing. I was and am not at all offended by your style. As you stated this is an open forum. Absolutely! After all we are all adults, heh? To answer your question whether I am susceptible to autism? No, I am not suscebtible to it, at least I do not think I am. Who knows what will occur down the line to any of us. Nonetheless, throughout this discussion, you have not mentioned anything critical as to what may be the cause for many illnesses children, adolescents as well as adults suffer. What I am gathering in your words regarding the GWS dilemma is that it's "just" something inherently given, or passed down the DNA line. There are just too many facts out there that dilute your point, and I am not only mentioning well known doctors, but also scientists who deal with this day in and day out. The only aspect you are taking into consideration is what the Rx companies are posting. By the way, there are never any independent agencies that conduct independent tests for specific vaccines. They are all driven by the Rx companies. So much for true stats. Plus, not once has there been a test depicting (forget placebos) unvaccinated and vaccinated kids. The Rx companies only "suspect" reactions after a dose of 3 consecutive shots within a given timeperiod. And only then will they suspect possible problems. DV, I am sorry, but citing Wikipedia or any other "inside sponsored" agency does not hold merit.

We are on complete opposite ends on this matter, and both of us have a right to view matters the way we choose. Is mine correct? Who knows. Is yours? Who knows? BUt I would definitely not innoculate an individual not knowing how and what the adjuvants may cause in a person.

As to injea's linked article, interesting. I try consider the source before reading and disputing/agreeing on anything.

[DV]

Okay, Patrick, I get your point after you stating it 5 times, LOL!

 

Sarcastic? No.

I only take Rx companies into consideration? No.

Wikepedia is "inside sponsored"? Who knew. I was trying to find a layman's source, like those you cited (which I guess were "outside sponsored").

[Patrick]

The five times. Don't know how that happened. My bad. Sorry to all readers. I msut have had a vaccine moment.

 

Wikipedia is not the best of sources. But wouldn't you take an article that had to be pryed via the FOIA as an outside source. There has to be more to that than meets the eye, heh DV?