Sumo Deadlifts

[cubby2112]

After doing a bunch of reading this weekend, I have decided to switch back to sumo deadlifts as my primary deadlift type, since I always used to pull higher on them, anyway. I really want to break 405lbs as soon as I can.

 

I am just wondering other people's opinion on what other lower body lifts I should include with them. Squats are a no-brainer, but for another lift, I will include Zercher squats with a wide stance. Now, I don't know whether I should include deficit deadlifts as my other primary lift, due to my sticking point being out of the hole, or to use RDLs to make sure I get plenty of glute/hamstring and lower back development. If I use RDLs, I will likely do some deficit deadlifts as well on hypertrophy (light/speed/technique) days, right at the end.

 

RDLs as my forth primary lift, with deficits done as an accessory is what I am leaning towards right now.

[VeganEssentials]

If you're going back to sumo style, you'll probably find that your leg work is going to be a bit lower in quality since sumo DLs use a lot more quadriceps and less lower back. I would say that working things that will be more lower-back intensive should be good for keeping things balanced for assistance work, so RDLs are a great choice. For Zerchers, maybe a medium stance would be best so you don't keep hammering the same type stance as with sumo DLs, which will keep more lower back in the movement. I used to LOVE doing them from the pins about 10-12" over kneecap height, working them for about a 2/3 full ROM and going heavy - even when I first took a year off deadlifting, doing those kept my DL up at the time so I still pulled 500 after a long break (which I can only dream of doing right now )

 

Nevertheless, sounds like you've got it pretty well figured out. Looking forward to hearing how it goes for you!

[cubby2112]

Thanks for the advice. I will go with RDLs and make sure I don't go full sumo on Zerchers for variety, like you suggested. Do you think doing:

 

4x3 sumo deadlifts

4x3 squats

3x3 Zerchers

3x3 RDLs

 

would work alright? I think that is what I will do tomorrow. The sumo deadlifts will probably be fairly light, since I haven't done them forever and don't want to hurt myself. It will be hard to not try to pull my ass off, though.

 

My second leg workout, which will be Thursday, will probably look like this:

 

5x8 sumo deadlift

5x8 squats

3x8 Zerchers

3x8 RDLs

3x8 deficit deadlifts

 

These ones won't be maximal sets, since this workout is more for hypertrophy, volume, technique, and to reduce neural fatigue.

 

I will let you know how it goes.

[VeganEssentials]

Looks good to me! I know I'm beyond being able to squat and DL twice in a week, but you young whippersnappers can still do those things, so it's all good

 

Definitely looking to see how this goes for you in time. If the hypertrophy day ends up being too much, then maybe some speed doubles or higher rep/lighter weight stuff would be a good way to go. See how you handle the initial load, tweak as necessary!

[xphilx]

this doesn't sound so good to me. i'm kinda surprised that you (VE) think doing deads two times a week would work. it defenitely wouldn't for me. at least not if i would do them heavy and defenitely not if i would do that much volume you're planning to do.

 

you're not a weak guy so you probably know what you're doing but may i ask you to post your entire routine? to me it seems like you're tending to do a bit too much.

[cubby2112]

Monday

4x3 sumo deadlifts

4x3 squats

3x3 Zerchers

3x3 RDLs

 

Tuesday

4x8 Bench

4x8 Chins

4x8 Military

4x8 Bent over rows

4x8 Dips

4x8 Pull-ups

 

Thursday

4x8 sumo deadlift

4x8 squats

3x8 Zerchers

3x8 RDLs

 

Friday

3x3 Bench

3x3 Chins

3x3 Military

3x3 Bent over rows

3x3 Pull-ups

3x3 Dips

 

What I am trying to do here is undulating periodization, which is basically working on hypertrophy and strength at the same time. The strength days involve long rest periods, while the hypertrophy days involve 30-90s rest periods, where I will pound through the sets very quickly. The hypertrophy day will be at a submaximal weight for the number of reps, so it won't contribute much to neural fatigue. This method hits on all the different known mechanisms of increasing hormonal response, in regards to resistance training, per week. That is something I really like about it. Before, I was following classic, linear periodization, where I would do a month of hypertrophy only, followed by a month or two of strength, cycle through again, then a week of recovery.

 

This program actually passes the volume, rest and intensity considerations of the NSCA. Basically, they are the only organization trusted in the conditioning of professional athletes here in the U.S. They recommend that a lift be trained twice per week, once maximally, with high intensity, and once with lower intensity, including deadlifts. Training a lift once per week can cause your neurological system to become deconditioned to a lift, but using too much intensity all the time can result in burnout.

 

One thing I am considering is to convert pull-ups and dips into assistance exercises on the heavy upper body day. I do have quite the number of upper body compound lifts, but I like to include all the primary upper body joint actions (shoulder: flexion, extension, abduction, adduction, horizontal abduction and adduction; elbow: flexion and extension).

 

Just explaining my thinking behind the program, xphilx, I am open to criticism.

[VeganEssentials]

xphilx - I didn't think too much of it, as I gained my best deadlifting short sessions and heavy 2-3 times per week. Of course, that's not for everyone, but if you're able to progress and recover from it, there's no reason you can't deadlift multiple times per week. No way I could do this kind of workout now, but 5-7 years ago, I could go in and deadlift every other time I'd train and still make progress. Though, I usually worked up to a max single or a few singles with 95% of my max, so I didn't do high volume on heavy deadlifts back then, either.

 

It's also why I noted that if the volume is too high and heavy, then something like speed doubles with 65% of max weight on the alternate days might be better. And, of course, if twice weekly even with working in light work is too much, then once only is best!

 

We can definitely adapt to more frequent training if we work into it with the expectation that it might be a tougher transition and require a few weeks for adaptation to the added workload. For me, from going from 6 reps or less and 3-6 sets max per body part to high volume was tough, but after the transition phase, it feels second nature now. But I don't disagree, more rest and fewer sets can be fantastic, as that's what I credit with for my best gains. But, there's something to be said for eventually trying out compound stuff more frequently, so hopefully it works out for him!

[cubby2112]

We posted at pretty much the exact same time there, VE.

 

I am planning on roughly 75%1RM intensity for the hypertrophy days, which at 8 reps per set, leaves a couple in the tank on upper body lifts, and several for lower body. Again, I am following NSCA guidelines for the most part here. I am following them so much, because I am going to test for my CSCS soon, so I have of course been studying lots of their stuff.

[VeganEssentials]

Best of luck on the CSCS, Cubby!

 

And I agree, periodization is a good thing to try out in training. That was the first step away from traditional 3x8 to failure training I used, and it was the first time in years that my gains started to come quickly. I used the Hatfield style periodization programs as outlined in my old ISSA trainers' guide, and they worked well at the time. Something I'll have to consider again sometime down the road!

[xphilx]

well, there is not much left to say for me i guess.

 

for me your programm would be still impossible to do since the volume is so high. and for a periodization or goal like this (hypertrophy on the one side and strength on the other) i would probably recommend a system like hatfield of maybe PITT but you know your body i guess and that's what counts.

 

btw: what's CSCS?

 

and for the main subject of this thread, the sumo-deadlift: since i'm doing my deads this way i've become much stronger than with the regular form. also i find it a lot easier to keep my back straight and so to keep a good form. so hooray for the sumo-deadlifts.

[cubby2112]

I'll look into the Hatfield and PITT systems.

 

I think the volume should work find for me, since I've always done fine with higher volume. Like I said about my upper body day, I think that might be a little excessive, so I may still drop the volume in some way on that. I will just watch how my lifts progress over the next few weeks. These are all the same lifts I have been using for about a month without changing them in my program, so it should be easy to detect if I am overtraining based on the progress or lack thereof that I make.

 

CSCS is Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist. It is the certification held by virtually every strength coach in professional and college athletics in the U.S.

[Ruz]

I agree with xphilx, way too much volume!

I know you are young and can recover quickly but that's way too much for training twice a week.

Cut it down and have a different focus everytime you train. The first session could focus on hams and the second on quads or something like that.

These type of routines are what are typically promoted by muscle building magazines, but this volume of work is only really effective if you are taking roids or something similar or have the most amazing genetics in the world!

But whatever..try it if you want! But remember to keep a strict log so that you can see if you are progressing or not. If you find you aren't making improvments every week you need to cut back on the workload, or have more days off between sessions.

[cubby2112]

Would working sets like this seem more reasonable? That is ten total heavy sets for the lower body (down from 14), which is equal in stress to performing a 5x5 of squats, then a 5x5 of deadlifts. There are fifteen heavy sets for the upper body (down from 18), which is similar to doing a 5x5 of bench, then chins, then dips. Would you guys consider that too much volume? The total number of sets performed is lower (substantially) than most hypertrophy programs, and about in line with most strength programs. As a reference, I compared this workout to one in the NSCA-CSCS book. The total number of sets came out lower in my workout, while there were more heavy lower body sets in the one from the book, but more heavy upper body sets in my workout. The workout from the book is a full body one, performed three times per week, with one heavy day, then a medium day, followed by a light one.

 

The fact that the hypertrophy days feel like I am just playing around with weights should make them no problem. I knocked through my Tuesday workout in 40 minutes, easily, and that was with some messing around since it was a new program.

 

So, to recap, each lift is done maximally only once per week, then performed again later in the week at a light load to prevent deconditioning. I am not deadlifting hard twice per week, because one of the times is merely there for volume. I think with these changes, the volume should look more reasonable.

 

Monday

Maximal sets, 3-5 minute rest between sets

3x3 sumo deadlifts

3x3 squats

2x3 Zerchers

2x3 RDLs

 

Tuesday

Descending reps: 8, 7, 6, 6 at 70% 1RM, 1 minute rest between sets

Bench

Chins

Military

Bent over rows

Dips

Pull-ups

 

Thursday

Descending reps 8, 7, 6, 6 at 70% 1RM, 1 minute rest between sets

Sumo deadlift

Squats

Zerchers

RDLs

 

Friday

Maximal sets, 3-5 minute rest between sets

3x3 Bench

3x3 Chins

3x3 Military

2x3 Bent over rows

2x3 Pull-ups

2x3 Dips

[Mik]

i prfer sumo deadlifts too, maybe because i've got longer legs, and u dont have to pull the weight as much distance. Right now i'm on 180kg for 75kg bodyweight which isnt spectacular but i havnt been doing them for too long so maybe i could boost it to 200 within a couple of months....i can only hope, and train smart