Howdy from Philly!

[Free]

Hi everybody,

 

I'm Free, a college professor and fiction writer living in Philadelphia, and I'm here because I could use some feedback and advice about bodybuilding. I'll clarify what I mean.

 

I've been weight training for 6+ years, but only recently have I gotten serious about it in the sense that I now have a definite goal: put on 10-15 lbs of muscle, maximize my strength capacity according to my frame and weight, and break previous strength records. I recently picked up Starting Strength, 2nd Edition, and Practical Programming (still reading through the latter), and these books have completely changed the way I train. Rip and Kilgore's no-nonsense, old-school approach to weight training with an emphasis on form and gradual advancement has allowed me to become stronger than ever before.

 

Prior to reading these books and checking out Rip's videos, I had never performed a full-squat in my life (even under the instruction of trained and certified personal trainers)--what's more, I had never been able to partial squats without throwing something out in my back. Now, I'm doing proper, deep full squats with more weight than I ever believed I was capable of handling, and my bench press, deadlift, press, and accessory exercises have shaped up beyond what I thought possible. For the first time in my life, I'm making real progress in the gym. I'm a college professor and writer, so I'm not interested in being a pro bodybuilder; by the same token, I take my training seriously--I love it, it's what gets the stress monkey off my back and allows me to set, achieve, and sunder personal fitness goals.

 

But diet? Now there's the tricky part--the reason I'm here.

 

I've been strict vegetarian for years (about 3 years of strict vegan in there), and by strict, I mean no dairy except for eggs. However, in order to actually gain weight on my training program, I've had to up my egg intake (shakes and whole cooked eggs), and start drinking whole milk (about a quart a day). In addition, I've been gorging myself to put on pounds (I have an extremely high metabolism, the kind where I can eat pints of ice cream and not gain a pound).

 

Now, I've done stints of raw foodism. I do green smoothies most days, salads when I can't blend, and try to keep a high intake of raw fruits and veggies coming in, I eat quinoa, lentils, tried Vegan powder, Sun Warrior proteins, hemp, etc. But none of my attempts at raw or vegan bodybuilding have ever succeeded in putting on body mass, and at this point, I feel incredibly skeptical that it can be done. Skeptical, but not without hope.

 

I'd like to make a move away from dairy and egg-based nutrition, but continue to experience the same gains in weight and strength I've been getting. Any help in this department would be greatly appreciated. My questions are, how would I get enough protein (one with a good PER score), and do I really need 1 gram per lb. of body weight? What are some ways to hit my calorie mark (I need 3k-4k a day to continue to put on weight based on my metabolism)? How efficient are hemp and soy proteins as compared to egg (which has a much higher PER score)? What can I chug instead of milk that's calorie/fat dense? Truth be told, if I can go to a (mostly) plant-based diet and achieve the same results, I'd rather do that.

 

Some stats on me:

 

6'1"

165 lbs

Weight training 3 days a week with alternating A/B 5x5 routines, all barbell with mixed chin/pull-ups, dips, etc.

 

At present, some of my benchmarks in (roughly) 3-5RM on the final set:

 

Squat: 145 lbs

Deadlift: 155 lbs

Bench Press: 165 lbs

Press: 90 lbs

Curls: 90 lbs

Incline Bench Press: 140 lbs

 

Thanks so much, and nice to meet everyone!

[Jason X]

given that you're 6'1 and 165, you're super skinny and simply don't eat enough.

 

I think you're aware of that.

 

stronglifts/starting strength/whatever are all super programs. Just EAT. you'll be squatting bodyweight in no time. How you can bench more than you can deadlift is particularly baffling to me.

 

at any rate. At the new year (2010) I was 160lbs (with shoes on!). Now I'm about 2 lbs shy of 200 without shoes on. Lots of rice, beans, tofu, avocados, quinoa, TVP, etc. I'll be honest, I don't care about eating lots of processed foods, so I do. Lots of boca stuff (when it's on sale, I'll eat a box of burgers or a bag of nuggets for lunch in a day). I also eat 4 meals by the time work is finished. Breakfast, and then another meal every 2 or so hours until my shift is over, then I go home and eat a snack, go to the gym and then eat dinner.

 

To grow, you need to eat as hard as you lift. My metabolism is like yours. As soon as i put the fork down my weight goes down with it.

 

sorry I can't get much more specific. If it's vegan, eat it. end of story.

[Free]

Thanks, Jason. I appreciate the input.

 

I agree that diet is the key area holding me back, but I'm concerned with maximizing it. Right now, I'm eating 12 whole eggs a day, 2 egg protein shakes, 1 quart of milk, 1 salad or green smoothie, and 2-3 other whole meals (whole wheat pastas with mycoprotein patties, Field Roast sandwiches, half or whole cheese pizzas, 3 lbs bag of cherries, etc.). In other words, I'm eating as much as I can (or as much as I think I can, my suspicion being that eating smarter is a whole other ballgame), and I am gaining weight (I was 155 lbs before I started this training program). My question is about how (or, more precisely, if) I can make a transition to a plant-based diet and still keep gaining.

 

As for how my bench is higher than my deadlift and squat, well, I didn't train legs and back properly for years--the result is a serious strength imbalance that I'm working to correct.

[Jason X]

if the "if" is what you're worried about, then my answer is "yes".

 

just stop eating eggs and cheese...

 

I know that doesn't "help", per say, but that's really all there is to it. If you're asking for diet advice, that's something else entirely, if you're looking for validation, then yes, you can DEFINITELY "do it" on a vegan diet.

 

"My questions are,"

 

"how would I get enough protein (one with a good PER score), and do I really need 1 gram per lb. of body weight? "

 

Do you REALLY need 1 gram to lb? Maybe, maybe not, but it's easy to get, so why not just go for it. Better too much than not enough. I eat a diet pretty heavy in soy protein. Some people take issue with that. I do not.

 

"What are some ways to hit my calorie mark (I need 3k-4k a day to continue to put on weight based on my metabolism)?

Food. Eat a cup of oatmeal for breakfast. Some brown rice and veggies for dinner (a LOT of brown rice and veggies). Lunch? Again, I go with a box of something from Boca, or maybe some spinach noodles and tofu? At least one protein shake a day (add a ton of peanut butter and some olive oil for more cals). Clif products are also good. Lots of beans (lentils, kidney, whatever you like). I tend to make a lot of mega burritos (wrap, tofu, beans, spinach, salsa, sweet pickle relish, some veggies. a lot of all of it. enough rice beans and tofu and you can get north of 30g protein EASY.) Just a couple easy suggestions.

 

How efficient are hemp and soy proteins as compared to egg (which has a much higher PER score)?

 

I'll be honest, I don't know what "per score" means, BUT, The digestibility rate of high quality protein sources is 94 to 97% and even the protein in grains and beans is 78-85% digestible. read this: http://www.timinvermont.com/fitness/soyvswhy.htm

 

 

"What can I chug instead of milk that's calorie/fat dense?" Chug? So you mean liquid calories? LOTS of chocolate soymilk/ricemilk/hempmilk/whatever (again, soy has the most protein.) But, that's up to you. again, protein shakes.

 

Does that help a little more?

[Free]

I'll be honest, I don't know what "per score" means, BUT, The digestibility rate of high quality protein sources is 94 to 97% and even the protein in grains and beans is 78-85% digestible. read this: http://www.timinvermont.com/fitness/soyvswhy.htm

 

Thanks, Jason. That's extremely helpful, and I appreciate your input. Here's a few more thoughts/worries I want to throw out.

 

A protein's P.E.R. score, or protein efficiency ratio, is a score that grades the completeness and digestibility of a protein for the human body. Eggs tend to score incredibly high, though a recent talk with Brendan Brazier (the guy who started Vega) gave me some thinking points. He mentioned that many PER scores are based on lab-rat tests, and are not good representative models for human dietary science (a debatable point--there's some conflicting info on that, so I'm still trying to sort it out, but my current finds suggest that eggs score higher than any other protein source for humans and test animals).

 

Now, to be completely honest, though I used to eat a lot of soy, I've heard tons of bad press on it, so I've backed way off it. I admit that I did this without having hard facts, so I need to do more research on soy. For example, I've heard from a bodybuilder friend that runs health food store that soy produces phytoestrogens in the human body, and that this would inhibit muscular growth in me (a male). I've also heard that soy protein, while complete, is very difficult to digest and scores a poor PER.

 

There's another factor I haven't mentioned, and one that I've argued with raw foodist friends of mine in a similar debate: cost. Milk and eggs, even the good ones, are considerably cheaper than soy burgers and such, and it's hard to beat the calorie/fat/carb/protein combo found in whole milk in vegan beverage alternatives. So, another concern I'm throwing out on the table.

 

BTW--should I copy and paste this into a new thread elsewhere on the forums? Is this the place to discuss this or am I doing a naughty?

[Jason X]

If you have more questions that aren't being answered, then you could try to post this elsewhere, otherwise there is a search button up top. I wouldn't be surprised if this has been discussed already. I'd have a crack at that. Sorry I have kind of exhausted my helpfulness on this one. good luck finding answers, though. There are many people far more knowledgeable than me.

[lobsteriffic]

Welcome!

 

I just wanted to say that Jason has given you great advice and we have some other members too that have been putting on muscle while eating a LOT. They have journals in the workout log section you might want to check out (Jason X, Chewybaws, Medman, coroho, and Adena come to mind, but there are probably others I'm blanking on).

[el_flaco]

Do you really need to ask "if" it is possible to gain muscle without eggs, whole milk and cheese pizzas? The question seems to imply that no-one has ever managed to do it, that it is still only a theoretical possibility.

 

Now, to be completely honest, though I used to eat a lot of soy, I've heard tons of bad press on it, so I've backed way off it. I admit that I did this without having hard facts, so I need to do more research on soy. For example, I've heard from a bodybuilder friend that runs health food store that soy produces phytoestrogens in the human body, and that this would inhibit muscular growth in me (a male).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jul/01/anti-soya-brigade-ignore-scaremongering

 

The anti-soy stuff is a load of bollocks. Even t-nation retracted its previously anti-soy stance.

 

In my experience most self-proclaimed hard-gainers have lifting technique that prevents them from moving heavy weights. If the attention they put on their diet and supplementation was directed into their performance in the gym they'd see better results.

[Free]

Do you really need to ask "if" it is possible to gain muscle without eggs, whole milk and cheese pizzas? The question seems to imply that no-one has ever managed to do it, that it is still only a theoretical possibility.

 

I'm not implying anything--I've said it outright in my first post, summarized here: I've never had any success gaining weight or building substantial muscle on a vegan diet, but I suspect it's because I've gone about it wrong and failed to acquire reliable information. That's why I'm here--what better place to get feedback and support in order to shift my training to a vegan (or considerably more vegan-ish) path?

 

Thanks for the article--it's a great read!

[el_flaco]

I believe that your focus on your diet is misplaced. By your own admission you only recently picked up a copy of Starting Strength and that in six years weight training prior to that you believed that 145lb squats and 155lb deadlifts were beyond you.

 

This would suggest that it was poor quality training that was holding you back. A 155lb deadlift wouldn't place you in the top 15 vegan women on the strength table in my sig. As a 6'1 male, how could you expect to gain muscle with that training stimulus?

 

Why attribute your improved results now to your cheese, egg and milk diet rather than your change in training technique?

[Free]

I believe that your focus on your diet is misplaced. By your own admission you only recently picked up a copy of Starting Strength and that in six years weight training prior to that you believed that 145lb squats and 155lb deadlifts were beyond you.

 

This would suggest that it was poor quality training that was holding you back. A 155lb deadlift wouldn't place you in the top 15 vegan women on the strength table in my sig. As a 6'1 male, how could you expect to gain muscle with that training stimulus?

 

You're absolutely right. My problem was simple: I was ignorant of proper training technique and diet. Like many guys who tool around the gym, I worked out--sometimes very hard--and saw incremental increases. I saw personal trainers and got bad advice, and I worked out with people who chose bad form and the illusion of lots of plates over quality training. I made a lot of mistakes and didn't do my homework. I believe a lot of what other people told me at face value, and frankly, I'm done with that.

 

Why attribute your improved results now to your cheese, egg and milk diet rather than your change in training technique?

 

Two reasons at present: the first is that I have been suspicious of the ability of plant proteins to provide the same quality of protein that eggs do. The second was based on advice offered in Starting Strength, albeit to a lesser degree (Rip recommends drinking a gallon of whole milk a day, but I'm not willing to go that far). Now that I'm making serious advances for the first time in my life, I admit to feeling trepidation about a sudden diet switch: will I lose any progress/weight? Is this just another ill-informed switch, or can I compile lots of sensible feedback and reliable facts in order to make a truly informed decision? Obviously I'm hoping for the latter, and the discussions I've had here so far have been awesome!

 

Again, my goal is to get there--to get far, far closer to a vegan training regimen.

[robert]

Welcome to the forum!

 

So great to have you here.

 

All the BEST and welcome aboard!

 

-Robert