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I was so confused, but now everything is clear. Thank you, Vegan Police! You have to be much more specific about your questions. We can't possibly list all the benefits of a plant-based diet over an animal product-based diet. But we can tell you that everything in an animal product-based diet is available in plant-based products without all the hormones, antibiotics, growth factors, carbon monoxide, pus, blood, and other stuff they do to animal products. I've been very specific in my questions--go back and look. But reading off the PETA pamphlet is not getting us anywhere, and I quit donating to them years ago.

You're right--the more I look into PER and BV, the weirder the data is getting. Still got more to put together on that one. And there's no doubt vegans can be strong body builders--I've met, though not trained, with a few. But I don't simply trust any body building site (or body builder, for that matter) off-hand, vegan or otherwise. I believe the protein myth is exactly that--a myth for the average person--but I'm still putting together how it all works for someone doing a rigorous strength training routine. Yes, but not every person eating even the standard American diet (if one can be said to exist) suffers from those problems. But no, I'm not really debating which diet is healthier. I believe the vegan diet is healthier in every corner, but at this point it's just belief--I don't have all the facts yet. When I get there, I'll make a decision. Saying I consume dairy is not a promotion. I get that some vegans have a Holy Grail, but I'm not here to worship. Dairy has, in part, worked for me, but as flaco and I discussed in my intro thread, there are a lot of factors--not the least of which is proper training--that have to be taken into account. I don't have to defend my statements or diet to you or anyone else, period. Especially not when every post you're talking about has a cautionary note along the lines, "but this is something I'm trying to learn more about in order to get away from so much animal product." When you start talking about reading studies, implying that it's all so simply, and that if I just paid attention I'd get how super awesome being a vegan is, well, I don't know what to say. I've been a vegan, and I've even been a raw foodist at different points in my life. But there's so much contradictory info out there about food, diets, etc.--there's so many angles and agendas and profits to be factored in that it's incredibly difficult--I'd say impossible--to trust any single source of info without doing the homework. You say it like it's common sense, "Be vegan, it's #1!" But I say that even if that's true, I'm not yet convinced, I'm still working out the facts and info streams--and so are most of the people in the Intro section, by the looks of it. I mean, okay, link me to some studies--your earlier post about the China Study and such was great info--throw out some more! Help me filter through the truth and the crap! Just leave the crusading out of it, please.

Flac and Ducati, I don't want to start a flame war, nor am I trolling. I'm asking legit questions, looking for feedback, compiling info, and trying to compile facts (or as close as I can get). If you guys have problems, PM me instead of derailing the thread. I didn't know about PCRM--I'll check them out and update later. But PER and BV scores are how proteins are being evaluated, and if it's bunko, I want to know. Getting big isn't the point--the point, for me, is to gain strength, put on a few pounds, and find the healthiest ways to go forward (be it vegan or otherwise). Just because I'm on a vegan forum doesn't mean I'm not going to be criticial of it. Do you have a source on your last statement? Flac's link calls PER and BV scores into question, and I'm digging through the sources to get a bigger picture. The next question is, if the PER and BV score doesn't hold up for humans, is there an accurate evaluative score or measurement that can be used instead? The Jack Norris article presents us with a servings guide and way to tell how complete a protein is, but it doesn't touch on digestibility. I'm curious as to how these ideas interact (if they do at all). Going back to one of my earlier questions about soy and milk, I've decided to replace 50%-80% of my milk servings with soy milk and see what happens. On comparison in the store, soy milk was the only milk-type product that compared (coconut and almond milk fell way short in protein and calories). But I'm still concerned with soy and the possible downside.

You can see large, muscular people on any bodybuilding site, regardless of diet. That's not the point. The point isn't about getting huge, or competition between plant and animal sources. The point is that I, and likely many people on whatever side of whatever diet fence, have made mistakes by simply listening to someone tell them, "Hey, I know what I'm talking about, do it like this." And I'm not doing that anymore. I'm not listening to vegans tell me to trust them, and I'm not listening to non-vegans, or anybody, for that matter, without doing the homework, talking to people, getting feedback, and being brutally honest about the results. So, when you say, "But if you want to be big and healthy, you can choose from thousands of foods to get the nutrients you need (emphasis mine, implying that a vegan diet is the better or healthier way to go about things), well, prove it. Because that's what I'm here to do.

Awesome replies, guys--thanks! Looks like we're off to a great start on this. Let me hit a few back. The Jack Norris article posted by beforewisdom answers one of the questions (and it's not a moot point until the facts are in), raises a few others. Jack's looking at complete proteins by range as regards number of servings to satisfy all (non-synthesized) EAAs (essential amino acids), and his findings indicate that foods like tofu, lentils, and edamame all score quite high. If they're complete and edible, they'll work to build muscle--that's the simple part (Spirulina goes out the window, but I'm okay with never having to ingest another gram of that ever again). But what about quantity, and what about soy? Jack writes, "As an aside, the research to date indicates that moderate amounts of soy do not harm men's health." What's a moderate amount? How does that compare to his servings guide as it relates to plant-based complete protein sources? He's also inconclusive about hemp, and that get's dragged out of the closet and called a complete protein on an awful lot of channels. Interestingly, the analysis on eggs doesn't match up with a lot of the stuff I've read the egg protein companies talk about. No surprise, a profit's a profit. I'm becoming more and more suspicious of egg protein. Duncan, you posted some very interesting ideas. I never thought about combining proteins to get more components, but I doubt vitamins factor in unless the protein is cold-pressed or raw--they're too sensitive to temperature to endure, unless they're added post-process. Traces, aminos, and minerals, on the other hand--well, I've just never thought about that, and it makes common sense when I do. And if Jack's data is to be believed, there's no need to mix--doing a straight lentil or soy should be enough. This raises another point: acidity of isolates. During a recent talk I went to, Brendan Brazier discussed how he's veered away from isolate proteins (whey and soy, but generally as well) because isolates tend to increase acid build-up post workout. That, I suppose, is one thing egg has going for it, provided it's pure egg albumin, but there's got to be soy and mixed plant-proteins out there that are not isolates, correct? And is Brendan correct--do isolates increase acidity in the muscles post workout, and does this inhibit growth and repair? (note: the Vegan sport protein is a mix rice, pea, hemp, alfalfa, and spirulina--there's that hemp again! Source: Vega Sport) As for cow's milk, the fat, calories, and extra proteins make it easy to pack on weight. That points back to question 2, what can I replace it with (hemp milk is out, according to Jack)? Soy milk may be in, but it's not hitting the same calorie count. Coconut milk, maybe? Finally, el_flaco's link raises another concern: the validity of the way we evaluate PER and BV scores (something egg protein likes to trumpet). But if that score is bunk (again, if), then what can we use? Though I have to be honest--and maybe I'm missing something--I'm don't think brandishing a Wikipedia link makes these questions a "complete waste of time."

Sorry if this topic is old-hat to many of you, but I have a lot of questions/thoughts about proteins, and much of the relevant information on this board is scattered around. My hope is to compile information about proteins with your help, dispel various protein myths, and come to some hard conclusions about proteins as they pertain to vegan and vegetarian weight training. First, though I talked a little about it in my introduction, I've come off a vegan diet to gain weight and build muscle, but I'd prefer to go back to being vegan--I believe that it can be done, but I'm not satisfied with easy answers. There are so many rumor mills on both sides of the vegan fence that it's often hard to know with great certainty the truth as regards a product--in this case, proteins. Here are some of the questions I'm wrestling with, and that hopefully we can sort out: 1. Is there any plant-based protein as efficient for building human muscle as eggs? 2. Can whole cow's milk be replaced with other high-calorie drinks that provide the same (or better) benefits for building muscle and gaining weight? 3. Soy protein--what gives? Is it bad, is it good? Should I worry about the estrogen levels, or should I not care? 4. Pea, soy, Gemma, and hemp proteins: if I switch to them, are they as useful to the human body--specifically, can they be as readily utilized to build muscle, and with the same or better efficiency--as other sources? Ideally, I'd like to compile articles and discuss the findings, as well as talk about relevant literature--in short, to build a kind of comprehensive protein database of sorts. And again, if this thread has already been done, I apologize for making a new one (I searched for one, I promise!).

You're absolutely right. My problem was simple: I was ignorant of proper training technique and diet. Like many guys who tool around the gym, I worked out--sometimes very hard--and saw incremental increases. I saw personal trainers and got bad advice, and I worked out with people who chose bad form and the illusion of lots of plates over quality training. I made a lot of mistakes and didn't do my homework. I believe a lot of what other people told me at face value, and frankly, I'm done with that. Two reasons at present: the first is that I have been suspicious of the ability of plant proteins to provide the same quality of protein that eggs do. The second was based on advice offered in Starting Strength, albeit to a lesser degree (Rip recommends drinking a gallon of whole milk a day, but I'm not willing to go that far). Now that I'm making serious advances for the first time in my life, I admit to feeling trepidation about a sudden diet switch: will I lose any progress/weight? Is this just another ill-informed switch, or can I compile lots of sensible feedback and reliable facts in order to make a truly informed decision? Obviously I'm hoping for the latter, and the discussions I've had here so far have been awesome! Again, my goal is to get there--to get far, far closer to a vegan training regimen.

This isn't appropriate advice on a vegan site. I suggest you remove it. I apologize if my post was taken the wrong way. What I meant is that although a non-vegan diet is working for me, I don't think it's the best (healthiest, conscientious) way to go about things, and I, like the original poster, and looking for more info/feedback.

I'm not implying anything--I've said it outright in my first post, summarized here: I've never had any success gaining weight or building substantial muscle on a vegan diet, but I suspect it's because I've gone about it wrong and failed to acquire reliable information. That's why I'm here--what better place to get feedback and support in order to shift my training to a vegan (or considerably more vegan-ish) path? Thanks for the article--it's a great read!

Hi, Dot. Nice to meet you. I lived in FL for 20 years various parts. I'm having a similar(ish) convo on my intro thread right now in reverse. I was mostly vegan for years, and now that I'm trying to gain weight, the only success I've had is to go back on milk and lots of eggs and cheese (and rice pudding, YES!). To answer a question or two, you might try Seitan as a meat alternative--it's made from wheat gluten, the wheat protein. Also, try hemp milks and coconut milks. Though high in fats, some research has shown coconut fats to contain chemicals that stimulate the human metabolism, increasing fat burn. I had a friend who tried it in Miami where coconuts can literally be scavenged off the street, and he lost a small amount of weight before going raw foodist.

Thanks, Jason. That's extremely helpful, and I appreciate your input. Here's a few more thoughts/worries I want to throw out. A protein's P.E.R. score, or protein efficiency ratio, is a score that grades the completeness and digestibility of a protein for the human body. Eggs tend to score incredibly high, though a recent talk with Brendan Brazier (the guy who started Vega) gave me some thinking points. He mentioned that many PER scores are based on lab-rat tests, and are not good representative models for human dietary science (a debatable point--there's some conflicting info on that, so I'm still trying to sort it out, but my current finds suggest that eggs score higher than any other protein source for humans and test animals). Now, to be completely honest, though I used to eat a lot of soy, I've heard tons of bad press on it, so I've backed way off it. I admit that I did this without having hard facts, so I need to do more research on soy. For example, I've heard from a bodybuilder friend that runs health food store that soy produces phytoestrogens in the human body, and that this would inhibit muscular growth in me (a male). I've also heard that soy protein, while complete, is very difficult to digest and scores a poor PER. There's another factor I haven't mentioned, and one that I've argued with raw foodist friends of mine in a similar debate: cost. Milk and eggs, even the good ones, are considerably cheaper than soy burgers and such, and it's hard to beat the calorie/fat/carb/protein combo found in whole milk in vegan beverage alternatives. So, another concern I'm throwing out on the table. BTW--should I copy and paste this into a new thread elsewhere on the forums? Is this the place to discuss this or am I doing a naughty?

Hi, Nic. I'm new here too, and I'm using the same book (and Rip's Practical Programming), and like you, I'm here looking for answers and feedback. So, first off, welcome! Nice to meet you and sorry for your loss. Other posters have already covered it, but it may be that calorie intake is your key. Calories are key (especially for vegans), and many vegan or vegetarian foods have been desperately cutting back on calorie content--a result, I suspect, of attempting to meet projected market demands in a country with a growing health consciousness. I used to be vegan-ish (I ate eggs, but no more than a half dozen a week), and as soon as I started seriously weight training, I couldn't for the life of me make any gains on my diet. I've since started doing egg protein shakes, eating a dozen eggs a day, drinking half a gallon of whole milk every day, and eating at least 2-3 more meals on top. And it's worked. I'm gaining. My main problem is that I'm looking for healthier (more, but not 100%, vegan) ways to do it, so I sympathize with your struggle. Check out the convo in my intro thread and chime in!

Thanks, Jason. I appreciate the input. I agree that diet is the key area holding me back, but I'm concerned with maximizing it. Right now, I'm eating 12 whole eggs a day, 2 egg protein shakes, 1 quart of milk, 1 salad or green smoothie, and 2-3 other whole meals (whole wheat pastas with mycoprotein patties, Field Roast sandwiches, half or whole cheese pizzas, 3 lbs bag of cherries, etc.). In other words, I'm eating as much as I can (or as much as I think I can, my suspicion being that eating smarter is a whole other ballgame), and I am gaining weight (I was 155 lbs before I started this training program). My question is about how (or, more precisely, if) I can make a transition to a plant-based diet and still keep gaining. As for how my bench is higher than my deadlift and squat, well, I didn't train legs and back properly for years--the result is a serious strength imbalance that I'm working to correct.

Hiya from another newbie. I lived in FL for 20 years, in and around Tampa, Clearwater, and Gainesville, so from one swamper to another: welcome and good luck!

Hi everybody, I'm Free, a college professor and fiction writer living in Philadelphia, and I'm here because I could use some feedback and advice about bodybuilding. I'll clarify what I mean. I've been weight training for 6+ years, but only recently have I gotten serious about it in the sense that I now have a definite goal: put on 10-15 lbs of muscle, maximize my strength capacity according to my frame and weight, and break previous strength records. I recently picked up Starting Strength, 2nd Edition, and Practical Programming (still reading through the latter), and these books have completely changed the way I train. Rip and Kilgore's no-nonsense, old-school approach to weight training with an emphasis on form and gradual advancement has allowed me to become stronger than ever before. Prior to reading these books and checking out Rip's videos, I had never performed a full-squat in my life (even under the instruction of trained and certified personal trainers)--what's more, I had never been able to partial squats without throwing something out in my back. Now, I'm doing proper, deep full squats with more weight than I ever believed I was capable of handling, and my bench press, deadlift, press, and accessory exercises have shaped up beyond what I thought possible. For the first time in my life, I'm making real progress in the gym. I'm a college professor and writer, so I'm not interested in being a pro bodybuilder; by the same token, I take my training seriously--I love it, it's what gets the stress monkey off my back and allows me to set, achieve, and sunder personal fitness goals. But diet? Now there's the tricky part--the reason I'm here. I've been strict vegetarian for years (about 3 years of strict vegan in there), and by strict, I mean no dairy except for eggs. However, in order to actually gain weight on my training program, I've had to up my egg intake (shakes and whole cooked eggs), and start drinking whole milk (about a quart a day). In addition, I've been gorging myself to put on pounds (I have an extremely high metabolism, the kind where I can eat pints of ice cream and not gain a pound). Now, I've done stints of raw foodism. I do green smoothies most days, salads when I can't blend, and try to keep a high intake of raw fruits and veggies coming in, I eat quinoa, lentils, tried Vegan powder, Sun Warrior proteins, hemp, etc. But none of my attempts at raw or vegan bodybuilding have ever succeeded in putting on body mass, and at this point, I feel incredibly skeptical that it can be done. Skeptical, but not without hope. I'd like to make a move away from dairy and egg-based nutrition, but continue to experience the same gains in weight and strength I've been getting. Any help in this department would be greatly appreciated. My questions are, how would I get enough protein (one with a good PER score), and do I really need 1 gram per lb. of body weight? What are some ways to hit my calorie mark (I need 3k-4k a day to continue to put on weight based on my metabolism)? How efficient are hemp and soy proteins as compared to egg (which has a much higher PER score)? What can I chug instead of milk that's calorie/fat dense? Truth be told, if I can go to a (mostly) plant-based diet and achieve the same results, I'd rather do that. Some stats on me: 6'1" 165 lbs Weight training 3 days a week with alternating A/B 5x5 routines, all barbell with mixed chin/pull-ups, dips, etc. At present, some of my benchmarks in (roughly) 3-5RM on the final set: Squat: 145 lbs Deadlift: 155 lbs Bench Press: 165 lbs Press: 90 lbs Curls: 90 lbs Incline Bench Press: 140 lbs Thanks so much, and nice to meet everyone!