Honey

[Astrocat]

Astrocat:

Please leave philisophical garbage out of a scientific discussion.

 

AllIveEverTouched:

Please leave your pro-animal-exploitation garbage out of a veganly discussion.

 

It was you who started it by trying to claim that bees are like complicated robots, and lack sentience (using that as your excuse for rationalising their exploitation).

 

 

No one reads minds and it is ridiculous to claim to know what people believe.

 

Unless you are a complete recluse who never speaks to anyone, even online, then it is perfectly possible to ascertain what people think without needing to have mind-reading capabilities.

 

It involves flapping your face in a certain way and manipulating your vocal chords just so.... or alternately waggling your fingers in a certain sort of way, in the direction of a computer... otherwise known as talking and writing, these are very effective methods of communication.

 

Rather more effective than mind-reading, I am sure we can all agree.

 

 

Actually there's a lot of evidence to prove that babies are sentient so your situation makes no sense. Once again, we are talking about bees.

 

Actually there's a lot of evidence to prove that bees are sentient so your approach makes no sense.

 

Yes, we are indeed talking about bees. Why you feel a need to robotically keep repeating that bees are not humans is anyone's guess.

 

My point (as i already said quite clearly) is that before there was evidence proving that human babies are sentient, lots of people used the lackof evidence as complete justification for maltreating human babies.

 

Perhaps you see nothing wrong with the "let's treat them badly until it is irrefutably proven that they are sentient" approach....

Or perhaps you are prejudiced, and find that immoral when used as an excuse to abuse humans, but not when that is applied to bees.

 

It is clear that you do not give a toss about bees, are willing to be cruel to them, are being belligerent and rude (to me, at any rate), and seem to be posting in this topic solely to try and justify and rationalise your support of animal exploitation- even though it is entirely unnecessary.

 

Since this is the situation, then obviously it is not likely to be worth my time to discuss ethics with you in terms of compassionate and considerate approaches towards bees.

 

The risk is that if someone really believes that bees are not sentient / capable of thinking / feeling, and then consumes honey, they are taking the risk that they're wrong and that bees actually are sentient and are suffering because of the person's honey consumption.

 

But if the person views the 'risk factor' only in selfish terms, and wouldn;t care less if it turns out that bees are sentient, then they will determine that there is 'zero risk factor' in that circumstance.

 

On the other hand, not eating honey has no risks whatsoever, if bees turn out to be non-sentient, then all those years of not eating honey have no consequence.

 

Indeed so.

 

Actually, it's 30 steps in the evolutionary tree to go from Bee to human but only 18 to go from Bee to Tree

 

Says who ? Besides, so what ? Are you saying that the further animals are away from human evolutionarily, the more justified you feel in supporting their exploitation ?

 

AllI'veeverlearned has made his stance quite clear, has dismissed sites like http://www.vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm and so forth, and is adamant that exploiting bees is ok.

 

I have yet to see his irrefutably credible evidence that bees feel no pain whatsoever, are entirely oblivious to their life experiences, are incapable of feeling any form of emotion or awareness, and are entirely unaffected by the sort of treatment which humans put them through inorder to get honey. Even though he is so quick to poo poo anything that others have been posting, to the contrary.

[Astrocat]

Did you read those articles you posted ?

 

Re:

http://www.hindu.com/seta/2005/03/03/stories/2005030301751500.htm

 

From the article -

That doesn't demonstrate whether they feel pain or not, but it does demonstrate they have very different mechanisms," Dr Fraser said.

 

Re:

http://www-phil.tamu.edu/~gary/awvar/lecture/pain.html

 

A table like that is not convincing to me.

Have you read the books which the data is compiled from ?

 

Re:

http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/2/parlbus/commbus/senate/Com-e/lega-e/witn-e/shelly-e.htm

 

From the article -

Although it is impossible to know the subjective experience of another animal with certainty, the balance of the evidence suggests that most invertebrates do not feel pain. The evidence is most robust for insects, and, for these animals, the consensus is that they do not feel pain6.

 

In other words "we don;t know, but we'd like to assume that they do not feel psychological pain"

 

Invertebrates show few, if any, of the behaviours that we would recognize as evidence of emotion. Many invertebrates are cannibalistic, and many eat their young when given the chance. Most have no social behaviour. Although they can respond vigorously to noxious stimuli, even this response is inconsistent. Insects, for example, will continue with normal activity even after severe injury.

 

Bees both engage in social behaviour, and also respond vigorously to noxious stimuli by tryign to sting their aggressor/s.

 

I'd hardly call that overwhelming evidence to show that exploiting bees is all okay, although perhaps some others here disagree.

[Astrocat]

Oh... I forgot to mention, also....

You know that link, the one about prof. Farstad ?

 

It does not mention that :

"Honeybees deserve special care", Prof Farstad said, "because they display social behaviour and a capacity to learn and cooperate."

 

It was a very "selected info" sort of article, condensed from another one already written.

This is the one it was taken from :

( http://www.guardian.co.uk/animalrights/story/0,11917,1408050,00.html )

 

I really do feel wary and will question it, when a dominant and powerful group of beings (humans) put out information about a less powerful group (nonhuman animals) , which has the end result of justifying abuse to the nonpowerful group (who the powerful group wishes to exploit).

 

I could find the studies from scientists who once said that certain ethnic groups are not as intelligent, able, etc. as pink people, which were once used to justify slavery, enforced subserviance of the minority groups, and so forth.

 

To repeat that bees are not humans, does not justify support of their exploitation. [/code]

[AllIveEverTouched]

Please leave your pro-animal-exploitation garbage out of a veganly discussion.

 

Who said I was pro-animal-exploitation? I'm not even "pro-bee-exploitation", I just could care less either way.

 

Unless you are a complete recluse who never speaks to anyone, even online, then it is perfectly possible to ascertain what people think without needing to have mind-reading capabilities.

 

This is just not true. Ridiculous. Possible? Sure. Accurate?

 

Actually there's a lot of evidence to prove that bees are sentient so your approach makes no sense.

 

Where?

 

Perhaps you see nothing wrong with the "let's treat them badly until it is irrefutably proven that they are sentient" approach....

 

But there already is evidence to show that bees are not sentient.

 

Since this is the situation, then obviously it is not likely to be worth my time to discuss ethics with you in terms of compassionate and considerate approaches towards bees.

 

Perhaps you'd rather discuss compassion towards rocks or plants? Or perhaps farmed animals or humans?

 

Quote:

Actually, it's 30 steps in the evolutionary tree to go from Bee to human but only 18 to go from Bee to Tree

 

 

Says who ?

 

http://www.tolweb.org

 

AllI'veeverlearned has made his stance quite clear, has dismissed sites like http://www.vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm and so forth, and is adamant that exploiting bees is ok.

 

Actually, I addressed that site. There is no evidence there that indicates bees feel pain. None. To compare the nervous system of an insect with 3 ganglion for a brain to the nervous system of a human with a three tiered brain is just ridiculous. Do you understand how a nervous system works? Do you understand what pain is? Pain is not some hocus pocus magical "feeling", it is an observable, measurable scientific phenomenon and cannot be felt without the proper system in place to feel it. It's embarassing to see all these vegan websites using this one article as their basis for avoiding insects.

 

A table like that is not convincing to me.

 

Science is not convincing to you? What do you base your opinions on?

 

In other words "we don;t know, but we'd like to assume that they do not feel psychological pain"

 

Actually it's more like, "We will never be able to exerience life as a bee, but the evidence we have gathered obviously shows that they do not feel pain."

 

Bees both engage in social behaviour, and also respond vigorously to noxious stimuli by tryign to sting their aggressor/s.

 

Plants engage in social behavior. They also have defense mechanisms. This is known as survival. In locomotive animals many call it instinct. These things prove nothing. Bacteria do the same. (Link)

 

 

 

In order to have a discussion about the exploitation of bees please educate yourself over:

 

1. What a bee is - especially the nervous system it contains.

2. What pain is.

3. The differences between a human nervous system and a bees nervous system.

 

It's not very complicated. Just don't assume that evey living, moving creature on this earth is like you and you'll have an easier time learning about them.

Edited September 10, 2006 by AllIveEverTouched

[AllIveEverTouched]

I really do feel wary and will question it, when a dominant and powerful group of beings (humans) put out information about a less powerful group (nonhuman animals) , which has the end result of justifying abuse to the nonpowerful group (who the powerful group wishes to exploit).

 

I could find the studies from scientists who once said that certain ethnic groups are not as intelligent, able, etc. as pink people, which were once used to justify slavery, enforced subserviance of the minority groups, and so forth.

 

Who said that the information was put out to justify abuse? How do you know why these scientists did these studies?

 

Please leave your fallacies out of this discussion.

[Astrocat]

Who said that the information was put out to justify abuse? How do you know why these scientists did these studies?

 

I never mentioned your specific studies in the comment which you quoted.

As you must surely be fully aware.

 

Please leave your fallacies out of this discussion.

 

I could say the same to you.

You are being incredibly belligerent towards me.

[Astrocat]

But there already is evidence to show that bees are not sentient.

 

Where ?

 

I find you to be arrogant, patronising, condescending, you are obviously debating your approach that exploitiong bees is ok since they are to your mind non-sentient.

 

Science is not convincing to you? What do you base your opinions on?

 

You made that up.

I said that table is not convincing. Which it isn't.

I have read none of the books it references. You did not answer my question - have you read them ?

 

Actually it's more like, "We will never be able to exerience life as a bee, but the evidence we have gathered obviously shows that they do not feel pain."

 

There was no "obvious" about it.

 

It's not very complicated. Just don't assume that evey living, moving creature on this earth is like you and you'll have an easier time learning about them.

 

What an arrogant, patronising, belittling, condescending comment to make.

[Richard]

There's no risk involved when we have science to show that:

 

1. Bees do not have a nervous system capable of processing pain.

2. Bees do not exhibit behavior indicating pain.

 

Invertebrates (which bees are) do not feel pain:

http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/2/parlbus/commbus/senate/Com-e/lega-e/witn-e/shelly-e.htm

http://www.hindu.com/seta/2005/03/03/stories/2005030301751500.htm

http://www-phil.tamu.edu/~gary/awvar/lecture/pain.html

 

I didn't mention pain in my post - even if a bee can't feel pain, it is still alive and may have other things going on in its head or things that it feels or drives that it might have - and to kill a bee would be stopping those feelings or drives, whatever they might be, it's still taking a life. The thing is, that you really do believe the results of these kinds of experiments prove 100% without any chance it being wrong that it's okay to kill and steal from bees. However, I can't imagine something convincing me of this, because regardless of what the experiment might say, I won't really know what it is like to be a bee. We do have to kill some things in order to survive, but I think it's, I dunno, common sense more than anything, which tells me to leave bees alone. Nothing spiritual or airy-fairy. It seems unfair to compare a bee to a plant after looking at them. These experiments and their results may well be 100% accurate, but I think that something along these lines is too hard to prove to people, certainly too hard to prove to me. Understanding the way that pain works, and seeing a lack of ability to feel pain in an animal is one thing, but to be able to say 'certainly, this animal can be killed, and there is no moral problem with that', I don't see what kind of experiment can bring those results to me. I do accept that perhaps I don't know enough about the subject, but ah, the tasks that bees complete in their lives are so much more complicated than what plants do, that I don't think there can be a comparison between them. I guess what I'm saying is all pretty wishy washy here... but seems like common sense.

[AllIveEverTouched]

But there already is evidence to show that bees are not sentient.

 

Where ?

 

In their lack of a system with which to feel pain. I have shown many links to sites with information and with a curious mind one could find much more information on the subject of bees, of pain, and of nervous systems.

 

I find you to be arrogant, patronising, condescending, you are obviously debating your approach that exploitiong bees is ok since they are to your mind non-sentient.

 

I don't really care what you find me, but ad hominem attacks don't debase the points I make, regardless. Yes, I am debating a stance, much like you are. So?

 

Science is not convincing to you? What do you base your opinions on?

 

 

You made that up.

I said that table is not convincing. Which it isn't.

I have read none of the books it references. You did not answer my question - have you read them ?

 

That table is based on science. I made nothing up.

 

No I have not read the books it references nor do I need to to understand the data collected from the books. My life's goal is not to prove to you that bees don't feel pain and as such I have no reason to read them. Have you read any books that "prove" that bees do feel pain? Would you care to share this sacred knowledge?

 

There was no "obvious" about it.

 

"Although it is impossible to know the subjective experience of another animal with certainty, the balance of the evidence suggests that most invertebrates do not feel pain. The evidence is most robust for insects, and, for these animals, the consensus is that they do not feel pain."

 

 

 

Richard:

 

but to be able to say 'certainly, this animal can be killed, and there is no moral problem with that', I don't see what kind of experiment can bring those results to me

 

No one can decide your morals for you, that's all up to you.

[Astrocat]

In their lack of a system with which to feel pain. I have shown many links to sites with information and with a curious mind one could find much more information on the subject of bees, of pain, and of nervous systems.

 

I dersay that one could, but that has nothing to do with the question which i asked you.

 

The question was Where is there already evidence to show that bees are not sentient. , not "where can i learn more about bees' central nervous systems"

 

Perhaps you do not understand what is meant by "sentient".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentient

 

That table is based on science. I made nothing up.

No I have not read the books it references nor do I need to to understand the data collected from the books.

 

So you have no idea what the books say, have no idea how credible they might be as sources accordingly, and do nto even feel that you need to understand the data which was used to compile the table - a load of ticks and crosses in boxes on some website is enough to convince you ? Wow now THAT's good science.

 

If you do manage to find any evidence that bees are non-sentient, I'm sure it will be fascinating to read it.

[Guest]

I am not speaking about people. All people lacking mental capacity have experienced mental capacity previous to their state. I have never once heard of a baby that went into such a state before ever experiencing life consciously.

 

Whats the difference from something never having a mental capacity and not having one now...surely people are different from bees and cats are different from dogs...no matter what it is still less cruel to not consume honey...as for natural polinization...its natural and its a benifit to all herbivores...and carnivores(natural ones) that eat herbivores

[Astrocat]

There are people with a conditioning resulting in a lifelong inability to feel pain (their pain receptors do not function in a healthy manner)

I wouldn't exploit them, or drink their barf, either.

[Guest]

Sometime I drink my own barf by accident so maybe I'd drink someone elses too....

 

 

As for the "science" thing...so many things are scientifically proven only to be disproven and proven again...it happens less and less often with technology but I think this is a case where that would follow...I say while we don't know...give bees the benefit of the doubt(not that you should be eating honey anyway)...just like buying anything that might be vegan...don't buy it until your sure

[AllIveEverTouched]

Astrocat, I find you very ignorant to the mechanisms that provide sentience.

 

So you have no idea what the books say, have no idea how credible they might be as sources accordingly, and do nto even feel that you need to understand the data which was used to compile the table - a load of ticks and crosses in boxes on some website is enough to convince you ? Wow now THAT's good science.

 

And where is your "evidence" for bees being sentient derrived from? A website that cites books? Hmm... What I do find interesting is that though you don't refute the evidence in my case, you refute the source. Meanwhile, I could care less about the source of the evidence that bees are sentient because the evidence itself is not evidence at all.

 

As anyone who knows anything about philosophy knows, you cannot prove a negative, so my ability to show you something that isn't there is limited. Fortunately for me, you haven't provided anything to show me that the ability for bees to feel pain is there.

 

With your logic I may as well believe that bees control our minds.

 

 

no matter what it is still less cruel to not consume honey

 

There is no such thing as "less cruel" when committing an act that is not cruel to begin with.

[Guest]

So its not cruel if a crapload of bees die while being supplemented with sugar water instead of what they're naturally supposed to be eating...this is the same kind of crap "vegetarians" say about organic eggs and milk...they keep their tongues satified and make excuses so they can live with themselves

[Richard]

sentience and pain are different things, I think there is some confusion in this debate because just the capacity to feel pain alone is not what most people are even talking about. A creature could feel no pain at all, and be perfectly happy all the time no matter what, even if you pull all its legs off, it might still be happy. However, killing that animal is still killing it... and so its enjoyment / consciousness / being /sentience is still destroyed, and that's what people take issue with (I think).

 

Additionally, there is no need to prove that bees are sentient, because the reason behind this would be to prove why I/we don't eat honey. However, choosing not to do something doesn't need (as much) explanation or evidence. If I walk down the street and I don't punch anyone, I don't need to explain why I didn't punch anyone, giving specific examples for everybody in the street. However, if I did punched anybody, I'd need a pretty good reason and evidence of why it was the best thing to do. Similarly, if I choose not to kill bees, why do I need to explain this or show evidence for anything, to not kill bees isn't an action which needs explaining, it's a lack of action with no consequence - it's the people who are choosing to kill bees / steal from bees who need to show why they're doing it, surely.

[Astrocat]

Whether or not bees feel the sensation of emotional or physical pain does not influence whether i view them as objects for humans to exploit.

 

If i were to claim that they are non-sentient and incapable of feeling pain, and were using that as some kind of excuse for why i think abusing and exploiting them is totally okay with me, then logically i would need some type of foundation for my somewhat debatable assertions.

Unless i was simply callous, of course.

 

Astrocat, I find you very ignorant to the mechanisms that provide sentience.

 

Dribbling out insults without any basis proves nothing, and simply shows that you are being belligerent.

 

With your logic I may as well believe that bees control our minds.

 

Eh ? Was that meant to be an insult ? Uh.... whatever.

 

If you want to claim that you don;t care about bees at all, and couldn;t care less whether there is evidence showing their lack of sentience or not, then that is one thing..... but to claim that they definitely are not sentient, capable of emotion, or capable of feeling pain (when even scientists say that can not be said for certain), just because you want to believe what it suits you to, is an entirely different matter, and somewhat arrogant and inappropriate. Especially in a vegan forum. I find it all to be very distasteful, and somewhat trollish.

 

And where is your "evidence" for bees being sentient derrived from?

 

Why should i require solid evidence of bees' sentience, in order to have an ethical, respectful , compassionate approach to animals both big and small ?

[Astrocat]

If anyone here would like to drink or eat a jar of someone else's vomit, I will willingly provide these free of charge (other than postal cost) , although i do request a little advance notice as my production equipment does not run 24/7 (fortunately for me ! )

 

In this way, everyone here would be able to consume someone else's barf - without feeling a compulsion to support the exploitation or abuse of anyone, in order to do so.

 

problem solved !

[AllIveEverTouched]

I have nothing new to contribute. I'm getting bored of running in circles.

[pelicanAndrew]

If anyone here would like to drink or eat a jar of someone else's vomit, I will willingly provide these free of charge (other than postal cost) , although i do request a little advance notice as my production equipment does not run 24/7 (fortunately for me ! )

 

In this way, everyone here would be able to consume someone else's barf - without feeling a compulsion to support the exploitation or abuse of anyone, in order to do so.

 

problem solved !

 

Same thing could be said about eating mushrooms. They're grown in shit in the dark.

 

Same thing could be said about any plants that are grown in the nasty dirt. You know, beans and carrots.

 

 

Your argument is flawed.

 

That being said i still dont think honey is vegan. It comes from an animal. Personally i think that's all you need for an argument. The whole eww gross thing is childish.

 

However i also dont think that it's worth arguing about this amongst vegans. We should be trying to convice carnivores to go vegan and vegetarians to take the next step. Not piddle about over bee spit.

[Richard]

That being said i still dont think honey is vegan. It comes from an animal.

 

However i also dont think that it's worth arguing about this amongst vegans. We should be trying to convice carnivores to go vegan and vegetarians to take the next step. Not piddle about over bee spit.

 

If eating honey isn't vegan, then someone who does so isn't vegan, therefore this argument isn't just among vegans, it's like you said, convincing a vegetarian to take the next step. But for other reasons, I don't think this conversation is going to go places It kind of frustrates me how other issues seem to come into these kinds of debates, they get kind of emotional or whatever and the main issues get left behind a bit.

[Astrocat]

Same thing could be said about eating mushrooms. They're grown in shit in the dark.

 

Same thing could be said about any plants that are grown in the nasty dirt. You know, beans and carrots.

 

Your argument is flawed.

 

Why do you feel that dirt is "nasty" ?

 

I was not making an argument, simply offering my vomit production services to the wider masses.

 

I am incapable of mushroom, bean and carrot production, at least to the extent of offfering them to others, so your assertions that my offer would also apply to them is flawed.

 

Eating something grown in shit, is different from eating the shit itself.

Perhaps you disagree.

 

If eating honey isn't vegan, then someone who does so isn't vegan, therefore this argument isn't just among vegans, it's like you said, convincing a vegetarian to take the next step. But for other reasons, I don't think this conversation is going to go places It kind of frustrates me how other issues seem to come into these kinds of debates, they get kind of emotional or whatever and the main issues get left behind a bit.

 

I agree.

[pelicanAndrew]

O i get it now. We all have to be psycho elitist asshats and then we'll win everyone over with our asshole attitudes.

 

No wonder my girlfriend isn't going vegan yet. I should be a complete ass to her. Thanks!

[Guest]

Its not about being an ass its about being a vegan...you can't eat cheese and be called a vegan...its just not vegan...animals die if you eat cheese...animals die/and are used until they die if you eat honey. Its not elitist its just the definition of veganism...when a bee is proven to be a vegetable I'll start eating honey and maybe bees along with it

[AllIveEverTouched]

I happen to be king of the vegan psycho elitist asshats.