Gorilla Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Hey guys, I'm even higher than usual today. I'm on vacation at the moment, so training hard ... and eating like a 400 lb gorilla ... I've been thinking more and more about how good I felt when I was on 100% raw fruit last summer for the best part of two months ... As you know I went back to cooked food after the summer, and even started supplementing with a multivit, creatine, glutamine and dextrose. I've been making good gains, and continuing to research information on the web about nutrition and bodybuilding: as always, trying to make sense of all the contradictions, and sort the truth from the nonsense. You might have come across a handful of bodybuilders out there who advocate high protein for six days of the week, followed by an "all juice day". It's interesting ... In fact, the last two days I got all my calories from fresh fruit juice and smoothies, as I was doing some part-time work at my town hall, and didn't have time for any heavy meals - I wanted to feel light and alert, so my instinct was to consume fresh fruit juice and smoothies: having not only survived but thrived on 100% fruit last summer, I know it can work. We've talked a lot about this, including the idea of "surviving/thriving", but I wanted to start this thread, as I'm talking about my specific experiences from last year up to my feelings about this right now. The point that I always bear in my mind is that the aforementioned 400 lb gorilla is pretty much 100% fruitarian - no creatine powder, no multivit tablet - and he is huge and strong! I've analysed why I went back to cooked food and supplements - Bigbwii was quite surprised, and asked why I kind of lost faith in the fruitarian diet. The main thing was that I caught the cold-virus that was going round college when I came back after the summer vacation, and I just thought maybe if I had had more B12/glutamine, my immune system would have fought it off - I hadn't been ill for about 2 years up till then, and wasn't impressed at having to stay in bed for about 2 or 3 days while my body got rid of the stupid virus. I guess I'm still not 100% decided, but as far as I can see the only thing that could be missing from the fruitairian diet is B12. Creatine, which a lot of bodybuilders say you need to get from meat or else from a supplement, is synthesised from arginine, glycine, and methionine, and these three amino acids are found in fruit. The other issue is "complete protein" but I think I'm right in saying that hemp and soy give you the complete spectrum of amino acids that you need after training, and other fruits give you the essential amino acids that cannot be produced "de novo" by the body. Anyway, after my two days of fruit I had the sweetest dreams last night, and I have that really clean, refreshed feeling. My muscles feel and look just as full and swole (love that word!); skin feels fresher than when on cooked food ... So I'll keep you posted - I'm sure this summary of my experience will be useful to y'all ... PS The fruit juice and smoothies contained the full “rainbow” – strawberries, oranges, bananas, lime, blueberries, etc. etc. Throw in some avocadoes, pine nuts, tomatoes, and a plenty of almonds, Brazil nuts, cashews, etc. etc. and for me, this diet just feels right ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clark X kent Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 wow this is very interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seand Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 gorilla i think you would find some answers you are searching for by studying natural hygiene. i'd start with shelton, t.c. fry or even doug graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbwii Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Hey guys, I'm even higher than usual today. I'm on vacation at the moment, so training hard ... and eating like a 400 lb gorilla ... I've been thinking more and more about how good I felt when I was on 100% raw fruit last summer for the best part of two months ... As you know I went back to cooked food after the summer, and even started supplementing with a multivit, creatine, glutamine and dextrose. I've been making good gains, and continuing to research information on the web about nutrition and bodybuilding: as always, trying to make sense of all the contradictions, and sort the truth from the nonsense. You might have come across a handful of bodybuilders out there who advocate high protein for six days of the week, followed by an "all juice day". It's interesting ... In fact, the last two days I got all my calories from fresh fruit juice and smoothies, as I was doing some part-time work at my town hall, and didn't have time for any heavy meals - I wanted to feel light and alert, so my instinct was to consume fresh fruit juice and smoothies: having not only survived but thrived on 100% fruit last summer, I know it can work. We've talked a lot about this, including the idea of "surviving/thriving", but I wanted to start this thread, as I'm talking about my specific experiences from last year up to my feelings about this right now. The point that I always bear in my mind is that the aforementioned 400 lb gorilla is pretty much 100% fruitarian - no creatine powder, no multivit tablet - and he is huge and strong! I've analysed why I went back to cooked food and supplements - Bigbwii was quite surprised, and asked why I kind of lost faith in the fruitarian diet. The main thing was that I caught the cold-virus that was going round college when I came back after the summer vacation, and I just thought maybe if I had had more B12/glutamine, my immune system would have fought it off - I hadn't been ill for about 2 years up till then, and wasn't impressed at having to stay in bed for about 2 or 3 days while my body got rid of the stupid virus. I guess I'm still not 100% decided, but as far as I can see the only thing that could be missing from the fruitairian diet is B12. Creatine, which a lot of bodybuilders say you need to get from meat or else from a supplement, is synthesised from arginine, glycine, and methionine, and these three amino acids are found in fruit. The other issue is "complete protein" but I think I'm right in saying that hemp and soy give you the complete spectrum of amino acids that you need after training, and other fruits give you the essential amino acids that cannot be produced "de novo" by the body. Anyway, after my two days of fruit I had the sweetest dreams last night, and I have that really clean, refreshed feeling. My muscles feel and look just as full and swole (love that word!); skin feels fresher than when on cooked food ... So I'll keep you posted - I'm sure this summary of my experience will be useful to y'all ... PS The fruit juice and smoothies contained the full “rainbow” – strawberries, oranges, bananas, lime, blueberries, etc. etc. Throw in some avocadoes, pine nuts, tomatoes, and a plenty of almonds, Brazil nuts, cashews, etc. etc. and for me, this diet just feels right ... Lemme give you my 2 cents.... Yes man...I was real shocked not because you went back to cooked foods because that's your business but when you posted your pics I could hardly recognise you because you was so bloated, you weren't big, you were bloated, even in your face, I was also sad because I too went down that road and I ended up exactly the same way, yeah I got real big (over 200lbs) and everyone thought I was a brick out house but it felt horrible and unhealthy, plus I didn't have muscle I just had padding!!! It also sounded like you were giving your body/digestive system a good pounding with all that food and water you said you were putting down and on top of that you were saying you were purposely doing little to no exercise, please forgive me if I read wrong! With raw foods just be careful and know that with transitioning to a raw food lifestyle there is a much, much bigger picture....what you experience in the initial stages is not the sum total of the raw lifestyle, what you think you know about yourself on raw foods right now is not even scratching the surface, if you stay raw then you have so much more to experience and so much more to learn about the cleansing process and yourself. Plus we are not wild gorillas, wild Gorillas are born eating raw foods, we are not, wild Gorillas don't have to go through detox, but I can see where your coming from. As far as the getting sick thing goes...Ive not been sick since I was in transition and I never catch the so called "colds/virus's", getting sick during transition is common and is to be expected at some point especially if you are not cleansing and exercising, so to say you got sick because of a lack of protien or B12 is nothing but a wild guess because your not going to be B12 deficient simply because you go Raw for a short while also the whole protien thing doesn't make sense either because all raw foods have protien, amino acids. I can say all of this because I thrive on the bare basics each season. You got sick simply because that was where you were at at that stage of transition/cleansing especially if you were also including cooked foods in your diet. I'm glad your still exploring and finding your way and I hope you find what makes you most happy. I wrote an article on building muscle on fruits that you can find on my forum if your interested in reading it. Do yo thang man and be happy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorilla Posted March 20, 2007 Author Share Posted March 20, 2007 (edited) Definitely man - that's a good message to everyone. Totally agree with most of what you said, except you did read that wrong about the training - as I said I've continued to train intensively, and rest intensively: the latter may sound like an oxymoron, but when I said I was maximising on rest, I meant that I was eating, training and sleeping as much as possible, i.e. not doing too much else besides these three activities! And it wasn't really a wild guess about the B12 issue. I've done a lot of research about this - like you and most of the people here, I search for as much information as possible on the web, and unfortunately a lot of the information out there is contradictory. One article I found particularly helpful, though, which most of you probably know, and have probably referred to, is this one from the Vegan Society: http://www.vegansociety.com/html/food/raw_food.php "The various raw vegan dietary schools differ in their approach to B12. Some recommend that B12 supplements should not be taken unless clear deficiency symptoms occur. David Wolfe (Nature's First Law) recommends seven different potential B12 sources, including unwashed or wild plants, nori, spirulina, fermented foods or a probiotic, with a B12 supplement as an alternative if these are not available. George Malkmus has recommended regular use of a B12 supplement since a study of Hallelujah dieters showed signs of inadequate B12 in most of them and showed that a B12 supplement or fortified nutritional yeast corrected this reliably while probiotics did not. The confusion in this area arises from a conceptual error. Many raw food or natural hygiene advocates believe that our evolutionary diet and that of our great ape relatives did not include an external source of B12 and then conclude that humans shouldn't need such a source. In fact, all the other great apes - even the gorillas - consume insects incidentally along with their normal diet of fruits, shoots, leaves and nuts. Chimpanzees show particular enthusiasm for collecting and eating termites, which have high measured levels of B12. After capture, the blood B12 levels of most primates drops rapidly when they are fed on a hygienically grown and prepared plant-based diet. It is therefore not surprising that humans also need an external source of B12." Given this, I expect you would advocate B12 supplementation at least during the transition period, right? Anyway, I always appreciate your feedback. As I said, you look great in all the pictures, except I would definitely change the before/after pic - I can see now that the "after" was shortly after the transition. It's obvious now and I should have recognised that, but I actually think it would be better for the "after" pic to be a more recent one, now that you've filled out naturally. It's obvious that after the detox you're not going to look as big. Perhaps you could present three pictures: keep those two to show the transition phase, and add a third one of where you are now and show that it can be done! Edited March 20, 2007 by Gorilla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorilla Posted March 20, 2007 Author Share Posted March 20, 2007 (edited) "Building Muscle on fruits By Richard Blackman Alright lets cut to the chase, you wanna go raw but your scared of looking like a stick insect on crack, so you wanna know if you can build muscle, look buff, look sexy, attract the opposite sex on a natural raw diet.....well to put it plain and simple, HECK YEAH!!!!! BUT!!!! That's AFTER your body has completed it's task of cleaning and healing itself which is a very lengthy process, you will NOT see any significant gains until this process has been completed because you will be losing unwanted fat and retained water and I'll be honest with you, in the beginning your gonna have days when you don't look or feel so hot and more than likely your also gonna get friends and family bugging to "eat some real food" but given the titanic clean up job that the body now has to do I think taking a hit in the vanity department is a small price to pay. I've heard every excuses as to why people that go raw haven't "gained weight" or "added muscle" but at the end of the day in my opinion there's a few reasons why you have not got the results you need: 1) They are too impatient and are not giving their body the chance to finish doing the healing/cleaning it needs to do. 2) You only get out..... what you put in and your the sum total of your efforts. 3) They are still including toxic ingrediants/food in their diet so their body cannot completely detox/cleanse. This simply comes down to a lack of education amongst the "raw community" and on the "raw food forums" many doubters of the Fruitarian lifestyle have said that the only reason that I'm in such great shape is that I have great genetics because I'm black and it had nothing to do with giving my body what it needed to regenerate or consistantly putting in hard work 5 days a week, it just goes to show you that if people can't do something they will always tell you that you can't do it either. Well, let me tell anyone that says you can't build muscle on a raw/Fruitarian diet that, YOUR DEAD WRONG and you need to stop looking for ways to prove yourself right so put up or shut up, I know, I know, that will never happen but it felt good saying it, nearly all of the doubters I know of aren't even working out or if they are they aren't doing it hard enough or consistantly because they don't have the drive thus don't get the results they want, they also are still stuck having a S.A.D (standard American Diet) mentality, eating heavy, oily fake "raw gourmet" versions of the very toxic foods they are wanting to get away from but still trying to be raw, I know this because people like this have approached me on the hush, hush for help on the raw food forums many times wondering why they are not able to get any success. Building muscle on a raw diet ain't like building muscle on cooked food, with going raw you have no where to run and no where to hide in terms of muscle growth, what you gain is real and is through pushing yourself to your limits, yeah it may take a little longer but it's all down to your own drive and determination and that scares many people because they don't have the faith in the raw lifestyle, themselves or their ability, plus most people never make it past their detox period. With cooked food the muscle gain can be manipulated via water retention, fats and not to mention the sports supplements, growth hormones and stimulants in the meats/food that are eaten several times a daygeneral, for most people stuffing yourself till you can't eat anymore several times a day every day of the week in the hopes of "bulking up" or getting "ma protien and carbs in" is the rule of the day, I know a lot of guys, even vegans that brag about how much they can eat, which is so sad because people really don't realise the stress they are putting on their digestive systems, I think about it this way, it's like doing continous barbell squats starting with just the bar and after each rep 10lbs is added by your spotters, yeah that sounds easy enough but eventually your gonna reach a point where your putting so much stress on your legs and back that at some point one of them is gonna quit on you. SO WHAT AM I SAYING?.....Ok. lemme break it down like a fraction, I'm saying that building muscle on a natural raw diet is different because your dealing with different issues which may halt/hold back your progress for a while to start with but when those issues are dealt and if the work is being put in then growth will eventually occur just like , but it won't magically appear like the in-active raw guru's would like you to think, you gotta consistantly put the work in just like anyone else. So anyone interested in going raw but doesn't wanna lose what they think they have then going raw may not be for you because at the start, OH... YOU WILL LOSE...how much depends on how much debris/water you need to get rid of and how active you are at replacing old cooked muscle with new raw muscle while in transition, so I guess what this all boils down to is..... YOU GET OUT WHAT YOU PUT IN......STAY ACTIVE..... " This is an excellent article man! Huge props for this: everyone should read it! So true: I spent time with my family after being raw, and they really bugged me to eat "real food". Well to be fair, they were probably a lot more open than a lot of people (as you know my dad is vegan, and I had an ultimatum with my mum about meat-eating and she agreed to cut out meat). Well we talked about it a lot - my brother is completely closed - he thinks people should eat meat and it's extremely difficult to make him see any other perspective. My dad said that maybe fruitarianism and even veganism is "going too far": he was playing the mediator, I guess, between me being fruitarian and my brother being a meat-eater/junk-food eater. This is my bro, me and my dad, aged 13, 15, and 43 respectively in this picture (April 2000): http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/9139/lilbrotommeourdaddyjy0.th.jpg I've always had a defined jaw-line, but you are so right Bigbwii that I looked totally different after all the pasta and stuff: definitely bloated - losing the definition and just not looking good. My dad had the same kind of features and lean build when he was younger, so I guess I should be able to see the danger of losing that. I think like roid_rage, who has stated he "would stay away from the fruitarian diet", I just decided that if I wanted to bulk up I would have to get a little bit fatter. Anyway, we'll talk more ... Edited March 21, 2007 by Gorilla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbwii Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 (edited) Definitely man - that's a good message to everyone. Totally agree with most of what you said, except you did read that wrong about the training - as I said I've continued to train intensively, and rest intensively: the latter may sound like an oxymoron, but when I said I was maximising on rest, I meant that I was eating, training and sleeping as much as possible, i.e. not doing too much else besides these three activities! And it wasn't really a wild guess about the B12 issue. I've done a lot of research about this - like you and most of the people here, I search for as much information as possible on the web, and unfortunately a lot of the information out there is contradictory. One article I found particularly helpful, though, which most of you probably know, and have probably referred to, is this one from the Vegan Society: http://www.vegansociety.com/html/food/raw_food.php "The various raw vegan dietary schools differ in their approach to B12. Some recommend that B12 supplements should not be taken unless clear deficiency symptoms occur. David Wolfe (Nature's First Law) recommends seven different potential B12 sources, including unwashed or wild plants, nori, spirulina, fermented foods or a probiotic, with a B12 supplement as an alternative if these are not available. George Malkmus has recommended regular use of a B12 supplement since a study of Hallelujah dieters showed signs of inadequate B12 in most of them and showed that a B12 supplement or fortified nutritional yeast corrected this reliably while probiotics did not. The confusion in this area arises from a conceptual error. Many raw food or natural hygiene advocates believe that our evolutionary diet and that of our great ape relatives did not include an external source of B12 and then conclude that humans shouldn't need such a source. In fact, all the other great apes - even the gorillas - consume insects incidentally along with their normal diet of fruits, shoots, leaves and nuts. Chimpanzees show particular enthusiasm for collecting and eating termites, which have high measured levels of B12. After capture, the blood B12 levels of most primates drops rapidly when they are fed on a hygienically grown and prepared plant-based diet. It is therefore not surprising that humans also need an external source of B12." Given this, I expect you would advocate B12 supplementation at least during the transition period, right? Anyway, I always appreciate your feedback. As I said, you look great in all the pictures, except I would definitely change the before/after pic - I can see now that the "after" was shortly after the transition. It's obvious now and I should have recognised that, but I actually think it would be better for the "after" pic to be a more recent one, now that you've filled out naturally. It's obvious that after the detox you're not going to look as big. Perhaps you could present three pictures: keep those two to show the transition phase, and add a third one of where you are now and show that it can be done! Personaly I don't believe in the whole B12 thing and I can come up with a ton of articles to back up my opinion on it but that would just be debating and I ain't got time for that, as I said you just do what you feel is best for you. As for the pics go check out the lastest ones I posted on the fitness section, I took them today.....as you can see there's not much diference even after a relativly inactive winter (I didn't work out at all for half of it). viewtopic.php?t=6383 So yes it can be done. Edited March 20, 2007 by Bigbwii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Complete protein is BS...as for the creatine you don't really need to take any since bodybuilder have gotten really big in the past(pre steriods) with vegetarian/meat diets...and creatine is of course only found naturally in meat but its in very small amounts. To get one serving of creating powder you'd have to eat 31 T-Bone steaks...so basically I'd say those old bodybuilders only got marginal amounts of creatine beyond what they produced in they're own bodies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorilla Posted March 20, 2007 Author Share Posted March 20, 2007 That's great man. You really are showing that it can be done, and what's more you look really vital - smiling as you're training So many gym-users go around not smiling, and yet it is the most important thing: "laughter is the best medicine" - it's so true. Smiling, exercising, eating natural foods - it's a pretty simple recipe for a good life. So as you say, let's shut up and train, stop debating this stuff, and have fun. Thanks for taking the time to reply - it is important to help others see what can be achieved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorilla Posted March 20, 2007 Author Share Posted March 20, 2007 Complete protein is BS...as for the creatine you don't really need to take any since bodybuilder have gotten really big in the past(pre steriods) with vegetarian/meat diets...and creatine is of course only found naturally in meat but its in very small amounts. To get one serving of creating powder you'd have to eat 31 T-Bone steaks...so basically I'd say those old bodybuilders only got marginal amounts of creatine beyond what they produced in they're own bodies. Now that's a good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbwii Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 That's great man. You really are showing that it can be done, and what's more you look really vital - smiling as you're training So many gym-users go around not smiling, and yet it is the most important thing: "laughter is the best medicine" - it's so true. Smiling, exercising, eating natural foods - it's a pretty simple recipe for a good life. So as you say, let's shut up and train, stop debating this stuff, and have fun. Thanks for taking the time to reply - it is important to help others see what can be achieved. Hey man your a good guy and I like you a lot, it's your choice how you live your life and I hope you don't think I'm imposing my own views on you, I've been where your at right now and it's just a matter of choosing what makes you happy! Anyway time for me to shud up 'n' train! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorilla Posted March 20, 2007 Author Share Posted March 20, 2007 Hey Richard,I like you a lot too. I remember when you first came on the forum and said that you wanted to bulk up, and I was like "wow you have a good basis to build on", since you already had a well developed chest.So yeah, time for me to shud up and get ready for bed now (10PM here in Oxford, England!) Speak soon man,James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flanders77 Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Bigbwii, Gorilla: It is so good to follow your conversation. It is full of respect and positive emotions. And it inspires me since I am on a raw-journey, too, and thinking about it all the time. Like you Gorilla, my family is against going raw (even against being vegan ) although some of them are veggie, too. It is a matter of being able to take part in the normal social life which seems to mainly consist of eating together. Of course I also have craving but interestingly I feel really bad after eating cooked food. I feel full but not sated.During the last month I ate about 3 cooked dinners per week. So I would say I was 80-90% raw. I lost 13kg during the last 12 month and stopped losing weight right now. Interestingly while being in this detox I was not really able to train hard and had a very low motivation. Nevertheless I improved my technique during the winter and now I really feel motivated.I keep you updated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorilla Posted March 21, 2007 Author Share Posted March 21, 2007 Hey flanders: I was hoping to hear from you!You are the king of technique! Thus I expect to see you make some great gains now: keep us updated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flanders77 Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 You are the king of technique! Right now I still feel like a absolute beginner on the rings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbwii Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 You are the king of technique! Right now I still feel like a absolute beginner on the rings. Hey Flanders...did you see the challenge on my forum? It started yesterday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hero Posted April 26, 2007 Share Posted April 26, 2007 sounds like a great way to go. i feel best when i eat just fruits/juice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorilla Posted April 26, 2007 Author Share Posted April 26, 2007 Cool - my diet has been 100% fruit for three weeks now. It's just easy - I don't really think about it. It's just natural for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seand Posted April 26, 2007 Share Posted April 26, 2007 how is it effecting size? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbwii Posted April 27, 2007 Share Posted April 27, 2007 You may not notice any significant changes in size for sometime especially if your still active.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorilla Posted May 1, 2007 Author Share Posted May 1, 2007 Hi guys,Haven't been keeping a tab of how long I've been back to 100% fruit, but all I can say is I was a fool to return to cooked food! Fresh, clean feeling - just like before. I feel as if I'm back to how it should be! I am still taking a multivit so technically my diet is 99.9% fruit. And I feel that even on high fruit, I still need to drink water. Speaking of which, this is hilarious: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C34Ib3HdKo4 In terms of size, basically the same minus the excess fat and water retention! Abs more defined, everything just seems more natural looking .. which is natural! Feel strong - building up to getting past the plateau on my 1-rep max for the compound exercises. That is my priority.It does help having nice sunny weather - I do feel considerably better during the sunny season here in the UK!If you want constant energy, perfect digestion, mental clarity, radiant skin, I recommend you try going 100% whole fruit (you won't want anything processed once you get into it!).I've had a lot of comments saying how good I look! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chesty leroux Posted May 2, 2007 Share Posted May 2, 2007 Gorilla that video was pretty awesome. It's cool to hear that you are thriving on fruit! i checked out your pics on your progress page, nice abs, and nice guita, looks just like mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seand Posted May 2, 2007 Share Posted May 2, 2007 looks just like mine. the abs or the guitar? haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chesty leroux Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 the guitar...haha...unfortunately...of course if my abs looked like that it would be super freaky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorilla Posted May 3, 2007 Author Share Posted May 3, 2007 thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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