Not sure what to eat anymore?

[Guest]

What are you trying to gain from your diet als?. If your trying to get big regaurdless of health then eat as much protein as you wish but if you want to be healthy you don't need .5g of protein per pound of body weight....assuming eggs were your only source. Nobody needs so much in order to be healthy and big muscles are by far a sign of health. I was eating over 300g a day(vegan and pre-vegan) when I was over 275lbs. For my first two years of being vegan I kept eating protein first everything else second. Then I quit training for over a year...when I came back I was maybe 270lbs and I was eating much better. I started really weak in the gym and got nearly back to where I was before in less than 5 months(going up about 75lbs in bench and 150lbs in squat) with far less food as I was training to focus on a different throwing even that didn't require as much weight. Anyhow I was eating less than .5g per pound and to my dismay I was still gaining muscle. I realized I was eating way too much protein in the past...even when I was VEGAN. I would have had much more energy and I would have been able to train even harder if I didn't put the stress of protein digestion on my system.

Sure there are benefits to eating more protein but only if you eat very low protein. There are even health benefits to steriods(testosterone promoting types) but only if you have naturally low hormone levels. As for your assessment of 20g of protein being bad I'd think you'd change your mind if you went to the gym with some of the forum members eating that way. As for the eggs being whites only sure your not getting the cholesterol but the protein is bad...just like eating 1.3g or more per lbs of body weight from any vegan source. Its just simply wasteful and not good for you. Even the rawest of vegans eating tons of sprouts for protein will suffer the consequences of a high protein diet...maybe less so than a high egg/milk protein diet but he/she will still suffer.

[pamela]

 

But to tell someone that eating 12 eggs a day is so horrible when some people here are eating 20 grams of protein, that makes no sense IMO.

 

Could you please stop being hung up on the 20 gram figure? You've ignored a lot of other good suggestions and zeroed in on one particular figure that yes, I'd agree, is not what I'd consider to be terribly healthy.

[andgbr]

another problem about eating a tons eggs is that you're probably going to be really full and you won't have enough space to eat other things ( healthy things ), with vitamins and minerals, your liver is probably going be so tired, that your body is going to start focusing itself on other things..

[frankFranchesca]

"Also, you should not expect a lot of support on a vegan forum for eating eggs."

 

--Yes and like, duh. I think it should be clear to readers that this isn't a place for animal-product and meat consumption propaganda and defense. I hadn't been here in a while, but several of the recent threads (often by meateaters, what the fuck?!?) have been frustrating reading.

 

Has the traffic gone up here lately? When that happens, that may attract the "other side"....

 

How sad that it's 2007 and too much of society is STILL on the humans-should-eat-significant-amounts-of-protein bandwagon.

 

I think vegan potter and others are correct. "Even the rawest of vegans eating tons of sprouts for protein will suffer the consequences of a high protein diet...maybe less so than a high egg/milk protein diet but he/she will still suffer."--I agree with this. I have a background in science; I keep up on recent findings and think more scientific evidence keeps coming out supporting an increased consumption of vegetables (many of which may actually contain significant amounts of protein) and fruits and a decreased consumption of higher-protein foods, especially animal-based foods, for optimum health. But I think higher-protein vegan foods should maybe be decreased too, not counting nuts and seeds, as these should probably be consumed pretty regularly, though not in high quantity each time.

 

I've personally found protein foods more and more problematic over time, vegan protein foods included, and think protein is very overrated, even with respect to muscle growth (IMO, minerals and carbohydrates are more important). I've been eating more and more raw lately, still eat some cooked meals and some grains (if I don't, my stomach can feel painfully acid) and beans (no soy anything), yet less than I was, and I hadn't been eating that much to begin with.

 

While I love the taste of them, I also think beans are a concentrated source of protein; small amounts a couple of times a week can be okay (I had a little cooked legumes twice this past week, bean sprouts once, and have recently discovered chickpea miso, which I find delicious and doesn't disagree with me in small quantities). Anymore than that just doesn't feel good, either to me or my husband. You don't notice how bad eating higher-protein foods can feel until you start eating them less--and that includes high-protein vegan foods.

 

While I've gotten a bit slimmer eating more raw and less protein, I've had no loss of muscle tone. Actually, I think my muscles have gotten harder.

[Guest]

I've found that too. I recently started lifting again and my muscles are gaining in density despite my meager protein intake. I don't mind it but I'd rather my muscles shrink but what can you do?

[ljk11]

This was probably stated (i forget) but excess protein is just a source of very expensive carbs.

[frankFranchesca]

For years people spewed the popular mantra that more protein = more muscle growth. But I kept personally noticing that increased plant-food consumption, especially leafy greens, actually did that when higher protein foods did not. When I consider the other species, the ones with the highest green vegetable/leafy green intake often have the most developed muscle tone. You can't necessarily compare accurately across species (or even within species...) so probably shouldn't do that too much, but I've often wondered what's going on and think the situation is a lot more complex than many people seemingly believe.

 

I started thinking (and still do) that minerals are very important for muscle growth and carbohydrates too. Gorilla, who posts here, recently said that he thought eating a lot of spinach (and whole-grain pasta, I think?) had a steroidal effect. Could this be going on too? Plants do contain sterols, which are a subset of steroids. Seaweeds contain growth hormones, so do land plants. Could some of these compounds ultimately affect animal tissue growth once they're changed through digestion, especially muscle tissue? Synthetic steroids supposedly used to be made from plants. People now say the Popeye thing's a myth, but I've been thinking that it might turn out to be true....

 

Maybe you could focus on eating less growth-stimulating plant foods for a short while, maybe that might help? Now what those foods are--that's the big question as I don't think what's going on is clear. It's also possible that certain plant PARTS may be less stimulating, like the parts that contain less growth hormones, the parts that grow slower in other words.

 

But maybe vegetables/fruits higher in water and fiber might be better? May I ask why you're trying to "bulk-in"? Did you get too big and lose mobility or flexibility?

[loveliberate]

Hiya Fran!

Please post something in the "Introductions" sections so that wa can properly welcome you to the forum!

[frankFranchesca]

Hi back at you! Hehe...I'm embarrassed to post there; I don't often draw too much attention to myself, except at my own places. Plus I actually first came in here months ago.

 

But let me think about what I could write, and maybe I'll get the courage to post it....

[Guest]

This was probably stated (i forget) but excess protein is just a source of very expensive carbs.

 

Maybe very expensive in terms of body damage. Your body really should never be using protein for energy(in terms of a healthy person). I did it in order to lose massive amounts of muscle(over 40lbs worth) but it was not even a remotely healthy thing to do. And in reality your body pretty much never really uses dietary protein for energy anyway...it uses it from your muscles not your stomach.

[ljk11]

If you don't take in carbs, your body will use the protein as an energy source, no? However it's just a pricy form of energy since carbs are cheaper and more readily used, from what I understand.

[Guest]

Really your body will use the protein in your muscles as an energy source...the protein you eat will go to replenish your muscles. Its terrible inefficient and not the way to go. Your body does however have the "minimal" capability of using fat(dietary) for fuel but it would rather use the fat on your body as well.

[BerryBlis]

Really your body will use the protein in your muscles as an energy source...the protein you eat will go to replenish your muscles. Its terrible inefficient and not the way to go. Your body does however have the "minimal" capability of using fat(dietary) for fuel but it would rather use the fat on your body as well.

 

 

I'm sorry but I really don't think you know very much about nutrition at all from. This forum is not the place for me as I have very different views on much of what was said. You are highly confused as to what the body does with excess protein and how much you would have to eat for it to become damaging.

 

I do not think YOU are taking in nearly enough protein, regardless of what you think, 20 grams as you stated is far FAR too low unless you are eating millions of calories - in which case are you really suprised you aren't losing muscle? - which brings to another point, why would you want to lose muscle? I guess if you do long distance sports it's handy but in the long term aspect of things, having low muscle mass is a call for problems.

 

Anyway thanks for people who responded but I'll be going another forum where they actually know about metabolism and nutrition.

 

To enhance your understanding, you may want to read this article as well.

http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/pdf/1743-7075-1-2.pdf - protein isn't hugely high in this study but it shows you that carbohydrates aren't quite as necessary as you may think.

[frankFranchesca]

Oh please. You've linked to anticarbohydrate, prohigh-protein, prohunting, propaleolithic diet crap wherein it discusses someone eating whale blubber and the usual Weston-Price propaganda and the usual "ancient humans were hunters and rarely if ever ate carbohydrates and grains" and other unproven propaganda and macho fantasy dogma that people love to spew as if it's largely fact instead of largely fantasy http://franswhatever.blogspot.com/2007/02/antivegetarians-and-their-illogic-part_06.html.

 

Antivegetarian/antivegan people are so transparent. I figured that was behind this thread being started, whether unintentionally or intentionally--I'm not sure in this case. But antiveg people usually come into veg places with a complaint about feeling sick as a supposed vegetarian (they usually aren't vegetarians--it's a bunch of fake b.s., a tactic to make people feel like those posters are "one with the vegetarian" crowd so those vegetarians will listen to them, this is eventually supposed to sway people away from being vegetarian and especially vegan--I've been a vegetarian/vegan for many years--I know how this stuff goes), but they soon show their true intent. Seeing antivegetarian stuff posted at vegetarian forums is always ing.

 

And in my opinion that study's conclusion is retarded. So some humans can still perform some exercise with hardly any carbohydrate intake--what the fuck does that prove? Rabbits can digest some animal protein, but rabbits shouldn't be subsisting on a high-protein diet of animal flesh. Most animals can digest both plant and animal matter, just maybe to varying degrees, and in emergency times for survival reasons, they can subsist on specific foods and different proportions of nutrients they normally wouldn't be subsisting on because it would make them ill over the long-term. In my opinion, this is the exact case with high-protein diets and humans; they can survive on them in the short-term, but the LONG-TERM IS VERY PROBLEMATIC HEALTHWISE. I think this has been shown repeatedly in both science and in many totally anecdotal cases, especially with respect to animal-based foods.

 

I do not approve of animal testing at all. But this study http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7442 did find that a low-protein low-fat diet improved fruit-fly longevity by almost 65%. That humans perform sick studies to find out what should be obvious by observing the healthiest and longest lived human individuals and human populations--humans are ridiculously illogical. They overcomplicate life.

 

More research findings http://record.wustl.edu/news/page/normal/8455.html:

 

"The research, published in the December issue of the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, shows that lean people on a long-term, low-protein, low-calorie diet or participating in regular endurance exercise traininghave lower levels of plasma growth factors and certain hormones linked to cancer risk.

 

"However, people on a low-protein, low-calorie diet had considerably lower levels of the plasma growth factor called IGF-1 [insulin-like growth factor 1] than equally lean endurance runners," said the study's first author Luigi Fontana, M.D., Ph.D., assistant professor of medicine and an investigator at the Istituto Superiore di Sanità in Rome. "That suggests to us that a diet lower in protein may have a greater protective effect against cancer than endurance exercise, independently of body fat mass....

 

"Our findings show that in normal-weight people, IGF-1 levels are related to protein intake, independent of body weight and fat mass," Fontana said. "I believe our findings suggest that protein intake may be very important in regulating cancer risk.""

 

From here http://www.creationsmagazine.com/articles/C108/Cousens.html:

 

"Fact and Fear

 

The high versus low-protein controversy is more an issue of fear and confusion than fact.

 

The high-protein approach to nutrition was initially based on nineteenth century German research that asserted people need a minimum of 120 grams of protein per day. This high protein thinking lingers today, even though the requirement is now considered by conventional nutritionists to be 60-90 grams of protein each day. But expert research around the world suggests that the real protein requirement is closer to 25-35 grams, and less if the protein we eat comes from live foods. It is also interesting to note that the average protein concentration in mother’s milk is just 1.4 percent, sufficient to supply the human organism with all the essential amino acids and protein needed during the period of most rapid growth and brain development. Apes, considerably stronger that humans, live on a fruitarian diet that averages between 0.2 and 2.2 percent protein, equivalent to the protein concentration in human breast milk. These facts lead one to question: Just how much protein do we really need?...

 

There Is Enough Protein in Vegan Foods

 

The biggest fear generated by pro-meat eaters and new vegetarians is about not getting enough protein. The real problem is just the opposite: We take in too much protein. According to the Max Planck Institute for Nutritional Research in Germany, there are many vegetable sources of protein that are superior or equal to animal proteins. The Planck Institute found complete vegetarian proteins—those that contain all eight essential amino acids—to be available from almonds, sesame, pumpkin, and sunflower seeds, soybeans, buckwheat, all leafy greens and most fruits. Fruits supply approximately the same percentage of complete protein as mother’s milk. Dr. Airola feels “it is virtually impossible not to get enough protein, provided you have enough to eat of natural, unrefined foods."

 

 

From here

http://www.pcrm.org/health/veginfo/protein.html

 

"Protein Requirements

 

With the traditional Western diet, the average American consumes about double the protein her or his body needs. Additionally, the main sources of protein consumed tend to be animal products, which are also high in fat and saturated fat. Most individuals are surprised to learn that protein needs are actually much less than what they have been consuming. The Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for protein for the average, sedentary adult is only 0.8 grams per kilogram of body weight.2

 

To find out your average individual need, simply perform the following calculation:

 

 

Body weight (in pounds) X 0.36 = recommended protein intake"

 

From http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=50900

 

"Too Much Protein

 

So think twice when you consider sacrificing the carbohydrates for a protein-dominant diet, Butterfield says. Drastically cutting carbohydrates from your diet may force your body to fight back.

 

She says that's because a diet in which protein makes up more than 30% of your caloric intake causes a buildup of toxic ketones. So-called ketogenic diets can thrust your kidneys into overdrive in order to flush these ketones from your body. As your kidneys rid your body of these toxic ketones, you can lose a significant amount of water, which puts you at risk of dehydration, particularly if you exercise heavily.

 

That water loss often shows up on the scale as weight loss. But along with losing water, you lose muscle mass and bone calcium. The dehydration also strains your kidneys and puts stress on your heart.

 

And dehydration from a ketogenic diet can make you feel weak and dizzy, give you bad breath, or lead to other problems.

 

How Much Protein Do I Need?

 

The amount of protein you require depends on your weight and your daily caloric intake. Most Americans consume more than enough protein in their daily diets. A few specific groups of people are at risk for being protein-deficient, including elderly women and people with illnesses or eating disorders. A protein deficiency is defined as eating 50% to 75% of the recommended amount of daily protein, Butterfield explains.

 

Ideally, you should consume 0.36 grams of protein for every pound of body weight, according to recommended daily allowances (RDA) set by the Food and Nutrition Board. So if you weigh 170 pounds, you need about 61 grams of protein each day."

 

"BerryBlis" stated: "I do not think YOU are taking in nearly enough protein, regardless of what you think, 20 grams as you stated is far FAR too low unless you are eating millions of calories"

 

--How do you know? Those protein counters I quoted above notwithstanding, you most likely really have no idea what his actual protein requirement is--or anyone's (assuming it's always the same--it may actually change for each individual under different circumstances). Equations aren't real individuals; they're equations. I think he may be eating too little because he's tall and seems to have a larger frame; he probably needs between 50-70 grams per day over the long term, but he didn't say he would be eating lower protein amounts for forever. He also didn't say he was eating exactly 20 grams per day. He said, "I'm trying to lose muscle on under 30g a day and its not working(I'm 200lbs and 6'1").,.." Also, he (or anyone else) may have made mistakes in counting what he's actually consuming. And also again, I'm not sure the nutritional values attributed to all the various foods are necessarily correct, especially with respect to individual samples of each type of food (other animals and plants come down with deficiencies, and food that's been sitting around for a while like in supermarkets often loses nutrients). Whatever the case, if he isn't losing muscle mass, that may suggest he isn't deficient in raw materials for making muscle.

 

To your "millions of calories," if a person is getting enough calories in the form of whole foods, it's pretty impossible to eat too little protein (though the person could still have deficiencies of certain amino acids--s/he's getting too much of one, not enough of the other, though I think this is also rarer than people claim). Intaking "millions of calories" of whole foods would probably be physically impossible. Unless a person were eating huge amounts of very concentrated refined foods, adequate calorie intake should provide adequate protein in most cases. And excessive calorie intake of whole foods would probably provide excessive protein.

 

 

"I guess if you do long distance sports it's handy but in the long term aspect of things, having low muscle mass is a call for problems."

 

--You're starting to strawman here. How do you know he would have low muscle mass? He may have too-high a percentage of muscle now and THAT'S why's trying to decrease the amount. You assumed he's of average-build musclewise when he may be very muscular. IMO, too much muscle can possibly be just as bad as too little. I know this is a bodybuilding forum, but extra muscle is still extra tissue that the heart must pump blood to and through. I personally don't think people should get too-too big, either with fat or muscle or both.

 

"I usually get upwards of 160 grams per day and I'm 110 pounds...."

 

--Um, sorry, but a person at 110 pounds, at least according to those counters above, should probably be intaking around what I should be: about 40 grams of protein per day. According to those equations and assuming BerryBlis is correct about her/his intake, BB is eating 4 times that amount, which is outrageously high.

 

12 eggs a day, as egg whites or not--I feel ridiculous addressing something so terrible; it's hard for me to believe that in 2007, some people are STILL eating like that.

 

If anyone is under a doctor's care and that doctor is suggesting that person should eat 12 eggs a day in whatever form, that person should really consider getting several second medical opinions, not that people should take the word of doctors as gospel because many of them do and know nothing about preventive health diet-wise. Likewise, people also shouldn't take nutritional advice from message boards as gospel.

 

Each person must figure out her own path, what's best for her own body. However, ignoring fundamentals about what foods are the most dangerous is asking for trouble.

[BerryBlis]

I'm not anti-vegetarian and didn't come here looking for trouble. I've done a lot of research into high protein diets and was looking at the alternative side, wondering if maybe there was a better way.

 

But to be rediculed because I don't want to eat some miniscule amount of protein isn't exactly healthy either.

 

I have 100% respect for those who choose not to eat animal meat, be it ethical or health reasons. But to deny the importance of a proper protein intake in a diet is not right either.

 

Obviously you are right, people have to find what works the best for them - which is what I was doing.

 

On the topic of eggs, some studies are actually suggesting now that the yolks can be very beneficial for health, so saying that you can't believe people are still eating them, I don't agree with that either. Eggs are one of the best forms of protein, I still stand by that statement.

 

Anyway, I'm sorry to cause trouble and piss everyone off, I am just saying that okay, maybe my diet isn't the healthiest being high in protein but you can't tell me some of the diets on here are balanced either. This is an EXTREME way of eating, as is a high protein, keto diet. Both have benefits, both have fall backs. My original hope was to help develop something in between the two, which was why I started reading this forum.

[flanders77]

As a long-time forum member and a scientist I have to add some thoughts here:

1. Let us all remember to treat eachother with respect.

2. BerryBlis came here and asked for "recommendations" on his diet. Some of us answered, we had a little controversy. As always when different people come together there are different opinions. Of course Berry should not be too surprised to find people on a vegan board telling him to stop eating eggs.

3. @Berry: In my and many others opinion there is black and white (right and wrong) in diet. Extreme is from most perspectives the wrong term to descripe a veagn diet. What is extreme is how animal products are "produced" and what they do to your health. For many of us this is a reason for being vegan.

4. Whatever you need a "proof" for, you will find a study to provide it. And a study to state the opposite.

 

I think we should let Berryblis leave. At this point of his life he is just not willing to move towards veganism. Going on in this discussion will lead to nothing but negative emotions. We really do not need this here.

[BerryBlis]

I agree completely. I never intended to start trouble and being this is a vegan forum, I was never hoping people would side with me on including eggs and other forms of protein in my diet. I still do not eat 'meat' sources, but yes, I do eat eggs and cottage cheese.

 

I was more looking to expand my knowledge on other diets out there (such as vegetarianism) and maybe incorporate some of their principles into my own.

 

I didn't mean to offend anyone and I'm sorry if I have. That said I will leave, I don't want to cause issues but it was nice to get some helpful advice, even if I don't particularly agree with it all. Some of the suggestions I will definitely take into consideration.

 

Diet is a highly controversial topic and you are right, you can find one study stating one thing and another one stating the opposite.

[Guest]

I'm sorry but I eat 30g of protein on a normal day. I don't lose muscle at all even though I want to. I weigh 200lbs bench 250lbs and I don't lift very hard. The training I do is done to lose muscle and I'm not losing any. I have far more muscle than I need even for health(let alone performance). Nobody needs tons of muscle and I have more than a lot of natural body builders have so don't say I'm unhealthy and down have enough muscle because if you think that your a complete dufus. I know far more about nutrition than you do and I've succeeded on high and low protein diets...I can imagine I've had much more success than you since I've benched nearly 400lbs and squated 600lbs in the past which is likely 2-3 times more than you will ever be able to lift. I wouldn't normally act like this but you've come here for advice from credible people and you refuse to listen due to a stupid american education that has left you blind to reality. Results of real life are far better than stupid lab tests on rats or athletes that a complementing their egg diets with drugs. Also if you had half a brain you'd realize you can't have tons of calories with 20g of protein unless your only eating refined sugar or pure fat which would result in losing muscle mass. I took over a year off lifting and just recently started again and I'm already stronger than most most my weight in terms of endurance athletes which does not seem logical to close minded people like you but thats reality and for you own good you better face it. As for protein to be damaging its OK to have excess protein like maybe 1g per pound but at your size your gonna kill yourself if you keep eating like that for an extended number of years...but go ahead if you think you'll be healthier for it.

[oregonisaac]

I have dealt with fatigue every time I have made a change to my diet, then my body adapts. I have no doubt if I started eating your diet I would be fatigued and most likely physically sick, and if you started eating mine you would be.

 

My advice would be to do you best to keep an open mind. One thing I try to do when researching (since it is alway true there are two opposing opinions) is to think about which opinion is profitable for someone, because that one is likely wrong.

 

Since you stated your goal was more energy, I guess raising metabolism with smaller meals and getting at least 30 minutes of cardio a day would make sense.

 

I was on a high protein diet for years, and I had lots of energy. I worked out all the time, had low body fat, and benched over 1 1/2 times my body weight. Most of my protein came from chicken, casiene, whey, beef and eggs. I often felt like I had too much energy, and was stressed out a lot. I went to the doctor and found out I had high blood pressure, which helped me to open my eyes to health beyond just how I feel in the moment and how I look. I would say my energy level is not as high right now (although I am still working out my new diet) but my health is greatly improved.

 

Good luck.