When kids get life

[VeganDude]

Saw this documentary yesterday. I could not believe what I was seeing...

 

This is completely crazy. I knew Amerika has the most crime, murders and people in prison then any other country in the world but I did not know this.

Apperently the USA is one of the only country's where minors can get life without a chance of parole. In the rest of the world there are about 12 minors doing life without a chance of parole, in the us...2225!

I know Amerika disregards a lot of treaties.

I was so shocked.. its just insane! I have no words for this really.

 

[Guest]

Thing is the mass majority of these "kids" are 16-17...not much different than an 18year old. And also there are many countries in the Middle East that are more than willing to hang or shoot people of any age...people don't get the opportunity to spend life in prison.

[VeganDude]

I'm sure you would not bring the argument about 16-17 not being much different to 18 in other cases. So I think thats being selective.

 

To be honest, I'd rather be shot then spend life in prison these minors are in.

(Not saying that that is a good thing afcorse)

[Guest]

I'd rather be shot too which is why sometime life is a better punishment to keep people from killing. Really it doesn't work here because you can get away with it. Saudi Arabia has very little crime because they have much harsher punishment than the US. As for our prisons some of them are terrible...while others have cable TV, gyms that are nearly fitness centers and even college degree programs. Heck...Mike Tyson went to prison for years and came out just as fit as he went in since he had all the facilities he needed to train.

[VeganDude]

I am not talking about best punishment, and this is about a western country.

 

The point is this isn't humane, it's a crime against human rights. And it's disregarding treaties and the rest of the world really.

 

I just had a look on the website of human rights watch and I'm getting more baffled with everything I read.

 

Seems like they don't only execute minors in the middle east:

 

"The United States' treatment of children in conflict with the law presented particular concerns. It continued to detain and incarcerate large numbers of youth-over 100,000, by one estimate-even though juvenile arrests fell for the sixth year running. With four juvenile offenders executed in the first half of the year, it continued to defy the international standard forbidding the imposition of the death penalty for crimes committed below the age of eighteen."

http://www.hrw.org/wr2k1/children/child4.html

 

Even mentally impaired:

 

"Despite these positive developments, as of October 24, the United States had put seventy persons to death in 2000, and eighteen more persons were scheduled for execution before the end of the year. The vast majority of executions in 2000 occurred in the Southern states, with Texas accounting for nearly half of all executions. Among those executed were individuals who were mentally impaired and four juvenile offenders-persons below the age of eighteen when the crimes for which they were sentenced were committed. Approximately 3,682 persons were on death row as of July 1. The U.S. continued to be one of only five countries in the world that executes juvenile offenders. "

http://www.hrw.org/wr2k1/usa/index.html#deathpenalty

 

There really is no point in discussing, it's just blatantly obvious.

[Guest]

I don't really care about human rights for a 16yr old that may violently kill and/or rape a family member of mine. They need to be taken out of society for good...they don't deserve to be out and about with the rest of us.

[Zack]

I don't really care about human rights for a 16yr old that may violently kill and/or rape a family member of mine. They need to be taken out of society for good...they don't deserve to be out and about with the rest of us.

[VeganDude]

I'm afraid its not that simple.

 

Afcorse there are some that should not be out and about with us. It's just really strange that most of these would be in the US..

 

I don't really care about human rights for a 16yr old that may...

 

Well, thats exactly it. The word may is very importand in this debate.

Most of the minors with life in prison without parole talked about in the documentary(about 2225), did not commit planned murder.

Also they do not get a chance to defend themselves properly.

For one, they are not allowed to chose a lawyer.

 

How come the US is one of the only country's(the only western) that allowes the death penalty for juveniles? And why? It seems to not be working to stop crime at all:

"In August, the U.S. Department of Justice revealed that the number of men and women behind bars in the U.S. at the end of 1999 exceeded two million and the rate of incarceration had reached 690 inmates per 100,000 residents-a rate Human Rights Watch believed to be the highest in the world (with the exception of Rwanda)."

(there is a civil war in Rwanda btw.)

 

About the death penalty:

"Five individuals were executed between January and October 2000 for crimes committed when they were under the age of eighteen. Four of these executions took place in the United States; the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) carried out the fifth. The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the Convention on the Rights of the Child forbid the imposition of the death penalty on juvenile offenders"

 

"Texas and Virginia together accounted for over 70 percent of juvenile executions and nearly half of all death sentences carried out nationwide between 1976, when the death penalty was reinstated, and October 2000."

 

"Iran and Nigeria were the only other countries that were known to continue to permit the death penalty to be imposed on juvenile offenders. Iran executed a seventeen-year-old in October 1999; Nigeria carried out a death sentence against a seventeen-year-old in July 1997 for a crime committed at the age of fifteen."

 

 

It's clearly not working to stop crime, and it's very likely that a bunch have been executed/put in prison for life without being guilty.

[Guest]

Believe it or not we need prisons that are even larger...this is obvious due to all the repeat offenders...if you are a repeat offender you should have never been let out to begin with and mostly everyone that leaves prison becomes a repeat offender so I'm thinking those numbers should double. I'm by no means a fan of our system...we have lots of people in jail that shouldn't be and lots of people making tons of money that should be in jail.

As for the word may I'd like to play it safe because of they are in prison then you can say they definitely won't be able to commit again. Sure lots of these kids may have not planned the murders but you don't get life for simply killing someone...you tend to get life when the murder is outlandishly violent...normally this includes beating up before killing, humiliating the person first, torturing them, and or raping them. It doesn't really matter if they may do it or not...prison is not just for rehabilitation its also for punishment. If you steal a billion dollars from someone you shouldn't get away with paying some of it back...you should have to give it all back...if you kill someone in a violent manner with little instigation as in most of these cases you shouldn't lose part of your life...you should lose all of it.

[CollegeB]

I'm with presidential candidate Ron Paul when he says to end the drug war. This would severly limit prison populations. It is the prison guard unions and other employees of the prisons and politicians which want the war continued c/o the taxpayers. Why cater to such a lobby?

 

as far as minors getting life, whats the difference of giving someone who is 18 life? Probably no much of a difference. I don't know the specifics of the case but if it was murder, rape and that kind of stuff I couldnt care less. Might as well send 'em to GITMO after the trial.

[Guest]

I think after violently killing people and getting put in prison for life is a reward relative to what these people deserve. You get a place to live...free food...air conditioning and lots of other things you need to work for outside of prison. They deserve much less for an even greater period of time than life in prison.

[VeganDude]

Just to be clear, I do agree that some people do need to be locked away forever, no question about it.

 

Believe it or not we need prisons that are even larger...this is obvious due to all the repeat offenders...if you are a repeat offender you should have never been let out to begin with and mostly everyone that leaves prison becomes a repeat offender so I'm thinking those numbers should double.

I think that is the wrong conclusion. Much like treating an illnes with painkillers, thats fighting symptoms, not the problem.

How can it be that there are so much more criminals in the US than everywhere else, cause thats what you are saying, and thats how it is also. I mean, there are no other western country's with so many people in prison and so much crime. Why is that? The US has so much money and acts like it's the biggest most successful nation.

 

 

 

Sure lots of these kids may have not planned the murders but you don't get life for simply killing someone...you tend to get life when the murder is outlandishly violent...normally this includes beating up before killing, humiliating the person first, torturing them, and or raping them. It doesn't really matter if they may do it or not...prison is not just for rehabilitation its also for punishment.

 

One of the minors in the documentary was in prison for killing his mother.

He was being sexually abused by his mother and his father beat him up. The parents of his friend tried to get help several times from instances but they never did anything. This minor defenetly does not belong in prison. He probably should be in some kind of psychiatric system, but not in prison.

According to the documantary most of the 2250 minors in prison for life are cases that are dubious just like this one.

 

As far as rehabilitation, you say mostly everyone that leaves prison becomes a repeat offender so I would say thats no rehabilitation what so ever if that is true.

 

 

It would be interesting to hear the viewpoint of other European's on this board.

[Guest]

We definintely need to fight the problem and not just the symptoms...you can do this by making out punishments worse or making our culture change. Americans think they can do what they want and thats the real problem. We need people to know that if they do something bad they'll be punished double. Americans are so privilaged and too many of us take that for granted. Its obvious when you see that there are people in the US without a place to live yet some people in prison get cable TV and fitness centers. And by the way there are Western nations with more crime...we just try to legally enforce it the most. I would say Columbia, Brazil, Jamaica, and many other Central American and South American counties are much worse. They just either don't do anything about criminals or the governments are the realy criminals. So really we may have more criminals but relative to population we have far less crime.

As for the kid you mentioned thats a sad case and chances are he's black. One of the big problems here in the US is that blacks are not treated fairly in the prison system. But maybe this case it isn't sad. Do you know the kid??? Maybe he is obviously uncontrollable. Unless you were in the court room you can't really decide that. And I highly doubt most of those 2250 kids in prison killed in a kind manner. There are so many kids out there that have insane amounts of assualt charges and never even get put in prison thanks to states going easy on minors...why would this be different. Most of these kids probably shouldn't have been able to kill since they should have been in prison before hand.

 

Back to the rehabilitation thing...like I said before...our prisons don't work and people that repeat offenses should have never been released. Prison should be to punish not to rehabilitate. Prison rights advocates are one of the biggest offenders in this. They fight to make prison jolly for everyone so people inside don't suffer the way they should or deserve. In the some of the Middle East rapists get castrated...they don't get the option of reoffending which is fine with me.

[VeganDude]

I would say Columbia, Brazil, Jamaica, and many other Central American and South American counties are much worse. They just either don't do anything about criminals or the governments are the realy criminals. So really we may have more criminals but relative to population we have far less crime.

 

Those are poor country's. And I'm not sure I would call a goverment that acts like the US's not criminal.

 

 

Do you know the kid??? Maybe he is obviously uncontrollable. Unless you were in the court room you can't really decide that. And I highly doubt most of those 2250 kids in prison killed in a kind manner

They showed bits of the trial on the documentary and quite some interviews of him in jail. But thats besides the point, he did not get a fair trial.

This is a well researched documentary. Some of these 2250 did not even murder/rape/violate anyone.

[Guest]

I definitely think our govt. does many things they shouldn't. Anyway sure those country's are poor but thats no excuse. There are many places with fairly low crime and poor citizens. And yes they are western nations and most of them aren't of the third world.

 

And I'm sure some of those 2250 didn't murder/rape/violate and some of them shouldn't be there but lots of kids(probably more than the number that are there now) that aren't in prison should be. But the mass majority of them are violent criminals....they aren't simple shop lifters. And I'm sure nearly all of them have had previous violent offenses...especially since we have so many violent offenders that are free and have never been put in prison..they just get community service or some kind of BS. The mass majority of these people are likely much worse than that.