Zack Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 I also don't get why people dump the gelatin capsule and take the contents. I take a special type of milk thistle for my liver...it's in a gelatin capsule, why dump it? Just take the capsule if it's already purchased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pamela Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 I also don't get why people dump the gelatin capsule and take the contents. I take a special type of milk thistle for my liver...it's in a gelatin capsule, why dump it? Just take the capsule if it's already purchased. It may just be the gross out factor. Gelatin is really ing. When I think of how many gummi worms I used to eat.... I wondered at one point if Dr. Joe could use his influence to convince his friend to use vegi caps instead, but that was never really addressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 Personally I can't taste gelatin so I can't tell that it's ing. Unless you're talking about what it's made of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 DV WRITES:Additionally, I have the finances to support whatever vegan or omni business I want to. I love when someone says "I would never support that business" when they would never even be able to support that business in the first place. Okay, I moved here from the east coast and was able to eat tremendous, quality food in a number of vegan restaurants back in New York. Now, I have to travel 11 HOURS south to San Francisco to even eat sophisticated vegan fare. Why? Because the vegan community (that posts on forums anyway) thinks more than $10 for an entree is too much. Obviously, none of them have been business owners. I'm not saying that you shouldn't have an opinion just because you are young and have never lived on your own or had a family or a retirement account or had to make the choices you'll have to make in your adult future. I'm just saying - lay off. One former member has not returned to this forum because of this type of attack. He was just the kind of person to draw more people to veganism. He was a friggin success in many ways! And now he's gone. DV, I would appreciate it if you would be specific about what points you are referring to. You say I've hit on a good point. Thank You? But what point are you referring to? Then you make a lot of assumptions about the demographics of people who post here and tell someone to "lay off" and feel as though someone is being attacked, but you never specifically quote or write anything about why you believe someone is being offended? Moreover, what does this have to do about whether or not some people think $10 an entree is too much or not, or what that has to do with whether or not these people who don't spend money at such restraunts, were ever business owners? What is it about your wealth that has anything to do with the points I made? Please be specific. It wasn't all about you or your post. You haven't been on this forum long enough to understand what I was getting at because you don't know all of the players involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 Luckily for me I have the balls to stick it out. He however doesn't even have the balls to stick around when it seemed only one person was against him and many were for him. Pretty wimpy in my opinion...he folded like a dollar bill because I think he may have partially seen my point of view when the people supporting him did not. Otherwise I'd think such a muscle bound man would actually have some guts...especially since only so much harm can happen when he's a million miles away from me. He didn't choose not to defend himself because he doesen't have "balls".... As he clearly stated in a previous post, he tries to stay as positive as possible and he is very spiritual, therefore he took the high road by stating his position and not continuing the ping-pong match. I just find it very ironic that Dr. Joe got more support and encouragement on one of the biggest meat-eating hard-core bodybuilding boards out there, than he did on a board of what is supposed to be "like-minded" individuals. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=4360853&highlight=Vegan+bodybuilder Thanks for posting this, VP. He's now gone from this forum so at least I know where to find him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 Oh he definitely doesn't have balls. He made a comment to me that would have been very offensive to anyone else if he meant that for them. However he shriveled up and deleted it pretty early on. So I wouldn't say he took the high road. You can keep your mouth shut and take the high road, you can take the high road and intellectually argue, but you can't make an immature comment then delete it before you think anyone actually read it. I think thats quite pathetic and it just shows he doesn't stand for anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beforewisdom Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 (edited) Luckily for me I have the balls to stick it out. He however doesn't even have the balls to stick around when it seemed only one person was against him and many were for him. Pretty wimpy in my opinion...he folded like a dollar bill because I think he may have partially seen my point of view when the people supporting him did not. Otherwise I'd think such a muscle bound man would actually have some guts...especially since only so much harm can happen when he's a million miles away from me. He didn't choose not to defend himself because he doesen't have "balls".... As he clearly stated in a previous post, he tries to stay as positive as possible and he is very spiritual, therefore he took the high road by stating his position and not continuing the ping-pong match. I just find it very ironic that Dr. Joe got more support and encouragement on one of the biggest meat-eating hard-core bodybuilding boards out there, than he did on a board of what is supposed to be "like-minded" individuals. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=4360853&highlight=Vegan+bodybuilder Thanks for posting this, VP. He's now gone from this forum so at least I know where to find him. I concur DV. No offense meant veganpotter but to many people a web board is just a web board. There are no issues for them about being tough, sticking things out, etc. It is just words on a screen to them and they value other things more than arguing with someone they don't know and will likely never meet. FWIW, my views about veganism are more similar to yours. Edited December 21, 2007 by beforewisdom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 You can keep your mouth shut and take the high road, you can take the high road and intellectually argue, but you can't make an immature comment then delete it before you think anyone actually read it. I generally agree with that statement, but everyone at times says things they don't mean or wish they hadn't said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 Oh he meant to say it...it was quite obvious and if this forum were just me and him he would have never deleted it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyre Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 I like how you can give an informed opinion with logical reasoning and many openings for others to share their opinions and the only guy who comments on anything is the one who talks about animal rights with great zeal(and offense74). Just putting that out there, it is the same almost anywhere I post actual content for the mind. Please apply what others have posted so you can respond in a manner that is on the subject of the discussion.(instead of picking and choosing, or at least have an opinion about something other than what you are interested in or take defense from if you are getting involved. Because it seems you either have to challenge someone or be silly to have a real discussion.) Dude, veganpotter, when I am talking about the mental social structure of the identity of being vegan and the use of that personal attachment(which it seems you do have) please contribute to the conversation more than: "If people thought thoroughly and with a clear mind they way I think you're recommending they wouldn't compromise animals and the ideas vegans promote just to hold powder inside a pill. Sure there are many things in life that probably aren't all that vegan but they don't tend to be really simple things to avoid that compromise others that are actually trying to follow as much of a vegan life as they can Ann Coulter." -VeganpotterI want your content, yourrssss.My response was:"So then what makes you a vegan? Is it hand or foot or any other part belonging to a person?" -me Your response? " I think its doing your best to not pay for the death of animals for your own good. If an animal needs to die to keep you alive for a surgery then you've gotta decide that on your own and I think would be justifiable either way. If an animal needs to die from animal testing because you want to make sure your nail polish would be safe to drink then you aren't a vegan.I do my best to try not to buy or consume things that have animal part in them...and I don't buy leather shoes just to throw them away and keep the laces...that would be pointless...as is buying a supplement in a gelatin capsule then throwing it out...neither of them are all that necessary." -veganpotter I never even brought up animals...While I got an answer you may not be aware of what I am getting at which is why I stated that those were valid points, valid but still a little too red herring for me. I don't doubt your commitment to animal protection and fair treatment, that is great, but if you don't understand the question enough to be involved in the discussion and not just your side of the story then ask me what I mean. I mean there must be more to your thought pattern then accusations, animal rights and what you do to help. This is what I meant by the Ron Paul comment as he talks about freedom and it's perspectual faucets and backs it up with a standard of thought(the constitution) while all the others talk about are terrorists, 911, and illegal immigrants. So while I talk (essentially) about the freedom of non-attachment with my standard being logic and compassion you talk about those that do not follow the way(terrorists), the event with the capsules(911) and people who say they are vegan but dont follow the rules(illegal immigrants). Please at least argue with my process of thought if it differs from you and tell me why your actual input not an external outsource of your energy. Do not mistake kindness with weakness. Your accomplishments as a vegan mean as much (to me) as a person who raises money for the republican party and this has been my argument. My perspective is there is no difference because you both have an agenda. I don't think even you can live up to your expectations of a vegan, maybe you can but only if you are the creator of the entire idea of consumption for survival. If your ideas of what a vegan is sprouted from animal rights then there is the rest of the world of thought on the matter, I would like to hear your opinion. As for the division problem I was referring that if you cut the same thing up into a million pieces it will no longer function as it once did. I would wonder what your opinion would be of the concept of a feral man would be concerning animal rights. I just had the thought that makes a hell of a difference: You take this stuff personally. I do not. I am not a vegan, you are the construct of what you think a vegan is, I am not.Please, Please, Please review what my argument has been and give me your opinion about the actual subject matter without bringing anything personal to the conversation. Leave your ego's at the door along with your guns, you can talk without arms. But you have the right bear arms if you live in the U.S. OK that was a lame joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 Basically my arguments are a part of and not a part of this thread. At least in what its based on. A vegan bashing another person thats vegan should be what we're talking about. However I feel that I'm a vegan bashing someone thats not vegan but claims to be...its a very simple concept. I'm not bashing them for not being vegan...you aren't vegan and I'm not bashing you...and I don't plan on it. I'm bashing someone saying they are vegan...someone that has the potential and very likely the intent to make profit off of calling himself a vegan even though he is not. This isn't about how much or how little we do. This whole topic shouldn't have even been named this way. ***I know I'm an extremely passionate person to the point that it annoys the hell out of people. However I'm not even angry in the slightest. I very rarely get angry and I doubt my heart rate has ever broken 60bpm throughout any of these conversations. What I am is disappointed in the fact that people think I'm dissing a vegan...but more importantly than that is that someone may be profiting off of calling himself vegan but is not. Sure eating a plant based diet has worked for him and thats great. But he doesn't seem to be doing it with animals or the environment in mind. Its purely from a health standpoint...which is also fine. Its selling yourself as a vegan that is wrong. Its a very Romney thing to do. Plain and simple...I'm arguing that I'm not dissing a vegan. I'd only bashed a vegan for things not related to being vegan...like being a real pain in the ass which is what I'm being here. In reality I seem to be the only vegan being bashed in this thread. And actually I'm being bashed way more than the "person"(not vegan) I've been bashing. If I had thin skin I'd find this very disheartening. However the two facedness I've seen here makes me feel good. There are a few people here bashing me for bashing Dr. Joe. However a few of them have bashed a few forum member off the forum with me around. Thats quite pathetic...you know who you are. I wouldn't mind this at all but to bash me after bashing others for pretty much the same thing off line is uncalled for. Either bash that person(he's long gone) in person and bash Dr. Joe...or keep your damn mouth shut. Show some guts. Lots of people here have guts when they go after the lone wolf...nobody here has guts to be themselves. No matter what people think of me here after all this I'll be able to show up to VV08(assuming I'm still welcome but I'm beginning to doubt it) and not be angry at a single person on this forum. However I don't think the rest can say the same even though it seems like its me against the world in this place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyre Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 (edited) Sorry double post. Edited December 21, 2007 by Gyre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyre Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 Alright man, cool, your dick is bigger. You still did not address anything I was talking about and that is fine. You make valid points and maybe my level of discussion on this matter does not suit the level that you are thinking on. Peace. Maybe others will have thoughts, they seem to mostly come out at night, mostly. <---aliens quote! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 Dude I'm not pulling any of that shit. I'm just saying this topic got all out of order when it was named since it was named after a previous argument. Not one of bashing a vegan but one of bashing a person. People should be pissed off at me for bashing another human if anything...not bashing a vegan. Maybe both arguments and questions need to be in a different thread??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyre Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 Maybe they do need to be in another thread. Why should they be pissed off at you? You seem to be more engaged in conversation than others. Once you cross the line of a social mental structure (vegan) and a biological function(humans) as you have stated as bashing a human not a vegan you are on par with religion. Religion being a social structure placed upon a biological function. Do you want them to be angry at you? Maybe they do not get angry at your position but unwillingness to adapt to the conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeganEssentials Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 Oh well, I think I'm bowing out of this one. I don't mean to come off like I'm attacking Potter and have anything against him (which I don't - I like him quite a bit from the times I've met him ), and while I may not agree with his thoughts on everything, I still respect him and don't hold any grudges about our varying opinions. My only intent was to try more to understand and sort out some confusion I had, but things are now counter-productive and we're not getting anywhere. Things don't need to get any deeper here - what's done is done, and by my insisting anything else come out of this it's going to keep things going in the wrong direction. So, Potter, keep on doing what you're doing - it's all good by me I do apologize if I've come off a bit testy with anything here. I've had some REALLY bad run-ins with people lately - you'd think that the holiday spirit of peace, goodwill and all that would have rubbed off more on family, friends and the general public, but I've been on the receiving end of a LOT of negativity lately and I fear it may have carried over a bit in my attitude. Rather than get involved in discussions that don't have anything good that will come out, I think I'll stick to just posting my training log, answering vegan product questions and staying with lighter fare. It's the best way to go, from the way I see it. I've left boards before because things got too heated and I let my emotions get too involved in the dealings with others who had varying opinions, and I prefer not to let the last board I call "home" end up that way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 Richard, By animals getting "wages" I was hoping to express irony. Some animal rights activists like to throw around words like "captivity" and "exlpoitation" of animals by humans when these words are entirely different concepts to these species. Is it always wrong for animals to be utilized by humans? What is captivity to a species that is content with just living in a very free range pasture with clean air? with all the nutritious grass it can eat? free from not only being butcheered by humans, but from being hunted by coyotes? What is exploitation to a draft horse, pack mule, llama, or alpaca getting all the nutritious hay it could ever dream of wanted with a good routine of rest and exercise, travelling far? Anyways if anyone thinks I'm "bashing vegans" by asking these questions. Please get over it. It's nothing personal. You're coming across like you have a problem with vegans, not because you are asking questions, but because you phrase things in a condescending tone. For instance, talking about animals and wages - I had assumed you were making some kind of jab at vegans, and my explanation of the word exploitation. Then saying that vegans "throw around words like captivity and exploitation" - that suggests that you think it's dumb to use those words. You could equally have said "I still don't understand why it's considered wrong to keep animals in captivity and I don't call XYZ exploitation, maybe you can explain it further". So I am kind of reluctant to continue talking about it, as it seems like you have a problem with veganism. Rather than wanting to find out things about it, it seems more like you want to moan about vegans. Anyway. I already said that I personally think that using animals is fine, only when there is absolutely no downside for them. That scenario seems very rare, and almost inevitably, a farmer would choose to exploit / harm / steal from the animal, since farmers actually don't care about the animals. The only reason they have the animals is to get money - not because they care. Keeping an animal in captivity - for its own safety - is completely different to breeding an animal into captivity deliberately, and then using that animal for your own gain. There are a couple of large animal sanctuaries around where I live, with many horses, donkeys, cows etc, and those animals have ben rescued since being abandoned etc. They are in captivity, but the people running the place are making their best efforts to keep the animals happy - that is the entire point of the place. Nothing negative happens to the animals besides that. The captivity is necessary, since you can't just release animals like that into the wild around here, especially once they are domesticated. So there is no alternative to captivity. The other thing to consider is that not all farms have nice places for animals to live. The picture that you describe is quite far from the truth when you look at a lot of farms. Some are better than others, but as I said, unless you physically visit the farm that your products come from, you won't know what goes on in that farm, where the animals are kept, how much room they have, how much light, how clean it is etc. You can't make the claim that the animals are treated at all well without going to a specific place. When buying a non-vegan product from a store, you won't even be able to find out which farm the ingredients came from, most likely. So if your ethics are that you will only buy animal products that come from a farm which treats the animals in a way that you think is acceptable, then you need to go to that farm, otherwise you really don't know how acceptable the treatment of the animals is. The way you talk about animals seems like the underlying difference here. You think that for some reason, it's okay to decide what animals will be doing with their time, and lead them around. Why do you think that's okay? To me, saying "So long as you feed an animal, you can get it to do XYZ for you" is the same as saying "So long as you feed a human, you can get it to do XYZ for you". Like if you breed a human woman, and she has a kid, and you keep it in your house and feed it, and get it to do household chores for you - that's a slave, and it's not right since you are controlling the animals in the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 Personally this discussion hasn't bothered me that much since I feel it or at least was necessary. I hold grudges but I won't hold one over this...at least not with the vegans or Gyre. So yes...I would still make out with any one of you...guy or gal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert Posted December 21, 2007 Author Share Posted December 21, 2007 I was away for 24 hours so I wasn't able to "monitor" the thread, and since I don't believe the intelligent discussion thread was honored for what it was supposed to be I'll lock it now and maybe delete some of the stuff that doesn't help anything. Thanks. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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