Think God would be vegan?

Opps, bit of a general rant about the world at the end! Sorry

Do tell. lol ..... (Don't worry, I'm a big girl..... I can take it. )

That's a weird idea, because then it could be argued that you have given consent, so infact there isn't a victim, a victim doesn't give consent. Therefore there can be no crime etc?

No, you have not given consent, you have given consent only to helping that person do the right thing. You are willing to take the chance that they will -- this does not mean you have given consent to their hurting you.

Infact if this world is "just a play", & the actors cannot do any real harm or indeed good, then whole thing would become a pointless charade. With the "good" seeming to be going back so, the "bad" can attempt to get better, but if not, then maybe next time, pointless, there's even no incentive to improve?

The "incentive" to improve is wanting to learn and improve. What is the incentive in body building -- self improvement right ? It's the same thing -- only not on a physical level, but on a soul level. I don't know if I am explaining this correctly, so if you're interested, read a book called Journey of Souls by Michael Newton. He's a psychiatrist that regressed people, blah, blah. Some of it is new age hooey, but some of it makes sense. ( http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1567184855/qid=1126790745/sr=2-2/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_2/104-2802030-7847911?v=glance&s=books and here's the back blurb of what's in the book http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1567184855/ref=sib_dp_pt/104-2802030-7847911#reader-page )

I was saying that it could have been implied that Jesus wasn't a person, (or indeed necessarily human), but was an idea of returning knowing you'd suffer & being willing to do it. Therefore any soul would have the option of returning & suffering for the good of humanity, therefore the term Jesus would be a name covering souls that returned to suffer for our sins, not the son of god (although technically aren't we all supposed to be the children of god-us atheists don't keep up with these things)?

Pete I wasn't there so I don't know for certain but I want to believe that he was a person and there were 12 others who studied his teachings and wrote about it, so I would assume he was a person. You are correct that we are all supposed to be children of god, but I think it's the soul not the body.

Hmm, what about Moses didn't he get a set of rules directly from God, or do you think he went up into the mountains & did a little carving?

The 10 Commandments is the only thing in the Bible that I do believe is what God wants, provided they were translated accurately. There was also another tablet, but Moses got mad at the Israelites and threw it at them because they were worshipping an idol.

I'm not having a go at Christians by the way. I don't agree with ya, but then I also don't agree with wicca, hindus, muslims, or anyone who believes in something out there that saves, protects or has any real interest in us. I simply think that falling back on a higher power is a cope out. We all have to face responsibility for our own actions & the state of the world.

That's just it Pete, everyone should take responsibility for their actions and not fall back on the higher power or lower power made me do it. It is a cop out when they do. Also, believing in a higher power does not mean you should blame that higher power for your actions. You alone are facing responsibility for your actions. You have to take responsibility for your wrong decisions as well as your right decisions to learn and grow. Instead of blindly following (as many do much to my dismay) you have to look around and see for yourself what is right and what is wrong.

If everyone believed this was it, we haven't anymore. Let's make the best of what we had & believed others (including animals) have the same basic wish to just be left to get on with it. Then the world would improve. All this I'm of this religion so you are the infedel, heathen etc so I'm better than you is a big world problem.

I agree with you here -- it is wrong to make people do anything (unless it's stopping them from torturing or killing). I have no problem saying that there are religious zealots and that there are alot of horrible things done in the name religion, but if one of the commandments is "thou shalt not kill," do you think that's what God had in mind or wanted ?

Most of the problems of this world have been caused by religion & empire. If we got rid of both & actually started just being people, then a lot of problems wouldn't even be an issue. Like if you knew someone in your town was literally starving to death & you had big stockpile of food you didn't even need, you'd give them some. We have on both the US & EU, but we certainly ain't helping people starving, just building our empires using corrupt governments & corperate takeovers in the developing world.

Here imo you are mixing up what God wants with what people actually do. We all have free will and I for one like that I am free to make my own decisions. If you want God to swoop in and make people act the way he wants, where is your free will ? You can't have it both ways Pete.

& things like Bush saying about teaching abstinance in place of safe sex! Sure if you don't want sex, don't have it, but if you do just give them a chance to do it in safety.

Do you agree with everything Tony Blair or any of the leaders of your country says or does ? Same here with Bush or any other president.

I have no problems with people believing whatever they like, just on them trying to force it on people who because of their situation, education or whatever suffer because of it, & I believe both religion & empire are the 2 major causes of world suffering.

I don't believe anything should be forced on anyone either (except stopping them from torturing and killing any being). As for religion and empire being the cause -- it's the people who are making up these things and these rules, who are causing all the suffering in the world.

I don't know the whole picture and am not saying more things are not needed, but do know that grain has been shipped to Africa where war lords there will not let it go through their territory. These same war lords steal it and sell it and to hell with the starving people around them..... The main cause of suffering is corrupt and selfish people imo.

the distinction between what people do and what god wants is irrelevant. a movement is defined by its actions, and the overiding action of all the major world religions is oppression and violence.

i still cannot comprehend why religious feelings still exist. i am with pete when it comes to the purpose of religion. it is to control.

in times gone by, people had little idea why things like the sun rising happened. they had uncertainty about death. they had pretty miserable lives. the church (using christianity as the example) offered hope, but at the same time took it away, as it locked them into a cycle of fear and ignorance that they were bonded to for life. the really funny thing is that as far as i know, the bible was only translated into english by king james 1st, so before that, everyone who could not speak latin, just sat in the service, not havinga clue about what was being said, and then had to cough up tithes at the end. people get put in prison for such fraud these days.

i believe that life is as you see it. we are born, we spend a short time growing, reproducing and then we die. call it a depressive take on life, but that is what it is. when i eventually croak (hopefully aged at least 100) i fully expect to rot with the worms. the only record of my existence will be in peoples memories from the actions that i have taken. i hope i make a positive impact, but i dont do it to get into heaven or anything, i just do it to make mine, and other peoples lives better.

jonathan

the distinction between what people do and what god wants is irrelevant.

How is it irrelevant ? I could carve a beautiful statue, meaning for the world to look at it and enjoy its beauty. Someone could take the statue and use it as a tool to clobber someone over the head. Does making that statue mean I meant it to be used as a weapon ?

a movement is defined by its actions, and the overiding action of all the major world religions is oppression and violence.

A movement is made by people that are followers and their actions. The results are from those followers' actions.

i still cannot comprehend why religious feelings still exist. i am with pete when it comes to the purpose of religion. it is to control.

Why have a grudge against God and Jesus when they are not the ones that have made life miserable ? People that have tried to define religion, for their own gain, have made it so. I do agree with both of you that all leaders want control and some use religion as a way of getting it, some use other methods. Believing in God does not mean you have to follow someone else's point of view or follow them. It's your belief not theirs -- you do what you believe is right and good.

in times gone by, people had little idea why things like the sun rising happened. they had uncertainty about death. they had pretty miserable lives. the church (using christianity as the example) offered hope, but at the same time took it away, as it locked them into a cycle of fear and ignorance that they were bonded to for life. the really funny thing is that as far as i know, the bible was only translated into english by king james 1st, so before that, everyone who could not speak latin, just sat in the service, not havinga clue about what was being said, and then had to cough up tithes at the end. people get put in prison for such fraud these days.

Jonathan, if you re-read my posts about leaders, religion and the king james translation I believe we are both saying the same thing about these issues.

i believe that life is as you see it. we are born, we spend a short time growing, reproducing and then we die. call it a depressive take on life, but that is what it is. when i eventually croak (hopefully aged at least 100) i fully expect to rot with the worms. the only record of my existence will be in peoples memories from the actions that i have taken. i hope i make a positive impact, but i dont do it to get into heaven or anything, i just do it to make mine, and other peoples lives better.

I take it you don't believe in souls and ghosts, etc ? Your image of life seems to be from a physical point of view only. Physically, of course your body is going to "rot with the worms" as you so eloquently put it, but your soul leaves the husk.

However, imo you are both looking at religion the way it was defined by corrupt people. Most "good people" don't do good things to get into heaven, whether they believe in God or not. They do things, because they know it is the right thing to do.

my world is entirely physical. i dont see any reason or evidence to believe in any souls, ghosts, gods or anything else. why not accept life as it is, simple part of the evolution of our species, as a tiny step in the progress of life on earth. we, like any ant or antelope, are only here due to the actions of ours parents. the likelihood is that we will breed and continue our species, just like every other species aims to do.

on other planets in the galaxy/universe, i imagine the same life cycles are repeating themselves. i wonder if they feel the need to believe in the supernatural too?

jonathan

my world is entirely physical. i dont see any reason or evidence to believe in any souls, ghosts, gods or anything else. why not accept life as it is, simple part of the evolution of our species, as a tiny step in the progress of life on earth.

But jonathan, I thought you believed in leprachauns ?

I do accept life as it is, but also see and try to appreciate the interconnectedness of both the physical and metaphysical and the impact both have on the other. Accepting life "as it is" does not mean that other things outside of the physical do not exist.

I believe in ghosts because I have seen one (and I was not imbibing in drink or anything else when I did). I saw the ghost of a cat with some markings. When I described the markings to the owner, I was told they had had a cat with those markings, who had died over 40 years ago. I have also read numerous reports of people that have seen a ghost (and reports of reincarnation -- some which have been verified by surviving relatives). As for scientific evidence for the soul, most parapsychologists not only deal with videos and tape recorders, but they also use heat sensors that detect anomalies in the atmosphere. When cameras are pointed in that direction -- guess what kind of picture they usually take ? I'm not going to change this into a debate about whether souls, ghosts and reincarnation exist or not, suffice to say I have seen and read of real evidence.

we, like any ant or antelope, are only here due to the actions of ours parents. the likelihood is that we will breed and continue our species, just like every other species aims to do.

Agreed there is no difference between humans and nonhumans and you are biologically correct that we are here due to the actions of our parents. But both human and nonhuman needs are more than physical for wellbeing and health.

on other planets in the galaxy/universe, i imagine the same life cycles are repeating themselves. i wonder if they feel the need to believe in the supernatural too?

I would imagine they do. I'm also pretty certain there are others in those same planets and galaxies who believe those that believe this are nuts as well.

Hey CG, Crash, etc, how can you be christian when your bible advocates such atrocities as listed in the link below? http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible3.htm#kill-all-unbelievers

That's just a few examples by the way, there are many, many more in the bible like that. My favorite is where some guys lock the doors of the temple to a rival god and kill everyone inside and god rewards them by "making their seed unto a great nation." Really, a few mistakes are one thing but come on, I'd think by like the 10th advocation of genocide you might figure out that they really mean it?

What most christians say (of the very very few who will even really face this,) is that the new testament totally supersedes the old. Which means that the pro-vegan stuff in genesis has to go out the window.

Jay,

Yes, the new testament represented the "new world order" which was to supercede the old world order. But how do you figure that the pro-vegan stuff goes out the window? Jesus Christ's message of mercy and compassion and empathy in the New testament is 1000% consistent with the vegan lifestyle

And, even though the new testament represented the "new world order", that still does not change the fact that God at the beginning of human history created man in a vegan image.

Jay,

 

Yes, the new testament represented the "new world order" which was to supercede the old world order. But how do you figure that the pro-vegan stuff goes out the window? Jesus Christ's message of mercy and compassion and empathy in the New testament is 1000% consistent with the vegan lifestyle

I said the pro-vegan message in genesis which is in the OT.

And, even though the new testament represented the "new world order", that still does not change the fact that God at the beginning of human history created man in a vegan image.

Obviously he didn't know what he was doing in the beginning seeing as he advocated genocide and all that so I have no idea why you think what he did in the beginning should carry more weight than what he did 1/4th of the way in? Especially considering the very beginning is much older and even more likely to be wrong. Doesn't make any sense at all. Seems like you are just picking out the parts that you like and ignoring the rest. I don't think that will convince very many christians.

If the message of this Jesus fellow really was consistently and clearly vegan you should maybe stick to talking about him. As it stands because you decided to talk about the OT which is overflowing with genocide and rape just because you found a pro-vegan part I am suspicious that you are probably just picking and choosing the pro-vegan parts out of the NT also.

What most christians say (of the very very few who will even really face this,) is that the new testament totally supersedes the old. Which means that the pro-vegan stuff in genesis has to go out the window.

I know what you said, and I have quoted it above.

What I am saying is that the pro-vegan stuff is NOT out the window with the new testament because veganism is consistent with Christ's message.

I have posted all kinds of posts on this thread explaining my position and I really dont want to reiterate stuff, and, if I recall correctly, the point about picking and choosing was already raised and dealt with, as was most of your other points. If you are interested, I invite you to read this thread in its entirety. BUT I have no intention of abandoning my faith, so there is really no point in arguing with me about the existence of God if that is your intention. The existence of God is not about logic, or proof, etc., but simply about faith. And I choose to have it.

peace

If you do believe there is a higher power & people corrected the writings of the original god/s, then what makes something written (& corrupted) by the hebrews a few millenia ago anymore relevent than any of the writings of any of the other religions. Infact because all the texts would by the nature of their corruption be just about invalid , or at least you & I would be unable to descern which is truth & which is lies, then wouldn't actually forgetting the organising in any sort of formal religious belief be the best way forward. If someone wishes to believe in something, nothing in my eyes makes the Greek, Eygtian, Nordic, Pagan or the Aztec gods any less likely than the Hebrew creation, or indeed any MORE likely.

Infact Moses getting a simple set rules is stupid, if they are laws not to be broken. Life can't be a simple set of rules like that, they were written for idiots, who don't think, in certain situations you could see yourself killing (if there was no other option), you could see yourself stealing (say a knife from a murderer), you can infact fall in love with a nieghbour who's married, they could be unhappy in their marrage, break up & get together with you, that's life, it happens.

Aren't the first two commandments specifically about/encouraging religious intolerence & infact if you don't believe then you, your children & even grandchildren & great grandchildren suffer for it! Bloody hell, HARSH! (I'm looking at them now. Never read the whole script, just seen Charlton Heston )

Here they are for the ignorant like me:

You shall have no other gods before me.

 

You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

 

You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.

 

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates; for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it.

 

Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the Lord your God gives you.

 

You shall not kill.

 

You shall not commit adultery.

 

You shall not steal.

 

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

 

You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor's."

 

Strange how human parents can show unconditional love to their children, but god is a bit a crappy parent, if you don't love me, then you get punished. At least that's how it reads to me. Either the 10 commandments are crap too, along with the rest of the bible (corrupted by humans-probably man is a better term judging by the sexist overtones), or god is someone to rally against, throw out of our lives, we may suffer later, but for a brief time (while alive) we'd be free of the needy demands of a wrong-thinking super-being. Why does a super-being demand worship or you suffer (& your family for generations). I'm no super-being, but suppose I had a kid. I'd hope they loved me & I'd do what I could to get that result, but if they did hate or turn thier back on me I would not pour punishment upon them & their kids & their grandkids etc. I wouldn't say love me or else. Sounds kind of insane to me, infact if I went to shrink & toild them that I'd probably be on strong medication by now.

I'm sure that most other religions have similar nonsense as the bible, so if you want to believe in something, just believe there is something. the fact is, if there is anything then it would almost certainly be indefinable to the human mind (we cannot conceive of the infinite), so all books/teachings or whatever will be wrong. Just be happy knowing you think there is more, but for now it's unknowable. Following any religion IS by it's nature following the writings of people, not any super-being. So, use your own mind, not the writings of others to make up your mind what you believe, then try to do your best to live the best you can while you're here.

me I'm happy to live & die. I've had a good (& hopefully will for a while yet). I broken a good few of the 10 commendments in my time, but on the whole I think I'm a good guy, doing his best in a shitty world. Sure, I could do more, but I do what I can & hopefully I've made some difference for the future...

Oh no, now this god talk has made me late for me free-vegan food give-away I'm doing today in town! Got to scoot! I'll be bunging up pics of the day on the Brighton Animal Rights site later (really need to update that is was my first go at a website & olooks a bit naff now!). See ya!

What most christians say (of the very very few who will even really face this,) is that the new testament totally supersedes the old. Which means that the pro-vegan stuff in genesis has to go out the window.

 

I know what you said, and I have quoted it above.

If you know what I said why did you say I wanted to throw out the NT stuff when I didn't?

What I am saying is that the pro-vegan stuff is NOT out the window with the new testament because veganism is consistent with Christ's message.

Yeah I know what you are saying. Now how about you listen to what I'm saying. You pretend like people don't bother to read your stuff when the reality is that YOU are the one who doens't bother to really read what people post.

I have posted all kinds of posts on this thread explaining my position and I really dont want to reiterate stuff, and, if I recall correctly, the point about picking and choosing was already raised and dealt with, as was most of your other points. If you are interested, I invite you to read this thread in its entirety. BUT I have no intention of abandoning my faith, so there is really no point in arguing with me about the existence of God if that is your intention. The existence of God is not about logic, or proof, etc., but simply about faith. And I choose to have it.

 

peace

I already read the thread in it's entirety. And I have never argued against the existence of god. Perhaps if you had the decency to actually read what I posted you would know that? Or perhaps you're so narrowminded you assume the only god anyone believes in is the christian one so by ragging on christianity I must therefore of course not believe in god?

Anyway, it's really a waste talking to someone who doesn't listen.

Pete,

yes that's all very logical but of course it's all about faith. They just choose to believe it and that's all there is to it. It does of course confuse the rest of us when they attempt to mix logic in there and then suddenly jump back to faith as soon as their logic is shown to be crap, but that's how they always do it.

MY RESPONSES TO YOU ARE IN BLUE BELOW.

What most christians say (of the very very few who will even really face this,) is that the new testament totally supersedes the old. Which means that the pro-vegan stuff in genesis has to go out the window.

 

I know what you said, and I have quoted it above.

If you know what I said why did you say I wanted to throw out the NT stuff when I didn't?

 

How very unChritsian of me but WHAT THE f$%ck ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? WHEN DID I SAY THAT YOU WANTED TO THROW THE new testament STUFF OUT THE WINDOW?

What I am saying is that the pro-vegan stuff is NOT out the window with the new testament because veganism is consistent with Christ's message.

Yeah I know what you are saying.

 

NO, ACTUALLY YOU CLEARLY DO NOT. YOU SAID THAT ACCODING TO CHRISTIANS, THE NEW TESTAMENT SUPERCEDES THE OLD TESTAMENT, WHICH THEN MUST MEAN THAT THE PRO-VEGAN STUFF OF THE OLD TESTAMENT (GENESIS TO BE MORE EXACT) GOES OUT THE WINDOW. I SAID NOT NECESSARILY, BECAUSE THE MESSAGE BROUGHT BY CHRIST IN THE NEW TESTAMENT IS CONSISTENT WITH A VEGAN LIFESTYLE OF MERCY AND COMPASSION. SO WHAT ARE YOU GOING ON ABOUT!!!!!?????

 

 

Now how about you listen to what I'm saying. You pretend like people don't bother to read your stuff when the reality is that YOU are the one who doens't bother to really read what people post.

 

WOW - SUCH SWEEPING GENERALIZATIONS AND HARSH CONDEMNATION FROM SOMEBODY WHO HAS INTERACTED WITH ME, WHAT, MAYBE THREE TIMES ON THIS BOARD??!!! KINDLY REFRAIN FROM ATTACKING PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU HAVE BARELY HAD ANY INTERACTION WITH THEM!!!!! HOW UTTERLY INAPPROPRIATE AND PRESUMPTUOUS OF YOU. WHAT MAKES THIS FORUM EXCEPTIONAL IS THAT MEMBERS ALWAYS MAINTAIN SOME DEGREE OF RESPECT FOR EACH OTHER AND PERSONAL ASSAULTS ARE RARE.

 

ACTUALLY, MR. JAY, I AM QUITE CONFIDENT THAT MANY OF THE MEMBERS WHO HAVE BEEN HERE FOR A WHILE DO READ MY SOMETIMES VERY LONG POSTS, AND QUITE ENJOY THEM, AS THEY HAVE MADE CLEAR TIME AND TIME AGAIN. HOWEVER, I WAS UNSURE ABOUT YOU AND A COUPLE OF OTHERS WHO JOINED THIS THREAD AFTER ALREADY 7 PAGES IN, BECAUSE IT IS A LONG THREAD, AND i WOULD NOT BLAME ANYBODY IF THEY HAD NOT READ ALL THE POSTS IT SINCE IT WAS VERY LENGTHY. .

 

 

I have posted all kinds of posts on this thread explaining my position and I really dont want to reiterate stuff, and, if I recall correctly, the point about picking and choosing was already raised and dealt with, as was most of your other points. If you are interested, I invite you to read this thread in its entirety. BUT I have no intention of abandoning my faith, so there is really no point in arguing with me about the existence of God if that is your intention. The existence of God is not about logic, or proof, etc., but simply about faith. And I choose to have it.

 

peace

I already read the thread in it's entirety. And I have never argued against the existence of god. Perhaps if you had the decency to actually read what I posted you would know that?

 

PERHAPS IF YOU HAD THE DECENCY TO READ MORE CAREFULLY YOU WOULD HAVE NOTICED THE QUALIFYING WORD "IF". What I said is I have no intention of abandoning my faith and so there is no point in arguing with me about the existence of God IF that is your intention."

 

Or perhaps you're so narrowminded you assume the only god anyone believes in is the christian one so by ragging on christianity I must therefore of course not believe in god?

 

Your words were something like "Crash, CG, how can you be Christian when your bible advocates..." So to answer your question, no I am not so narrowminded or arrogant to assume that the only god ANYBODY believes in is the Christian God, but the only God that Christianity teaches is the "only God" is the God of the bible. So while I cannot speak for others, when I refer to God, I am referring to the God in which I believe -i.e. the God of Christianity. I dont know if you believe in God or what God you believe in, but your words are, in my opinion, a clear condemnation of Christianity, and thus, by extension, God - the God of the Bible. I dont think based on what you have said (which, by the way, i DID read, contrary to your little rant) that my interpretation of your words is unreasonable or "way off".

 

Anyway, it's really a waste talking to someone who doesn't listen.

 

Finally something we can agree on - and that is why I am done talking to you. Oh, and thanks again, by the way, for the personal attack. Nice going. You appear to be relatively new on this new forum so, it takes balls to attack somebody like you did, and you have proven that you have big ones. If you want to get nasty, then pm me. No need to expose the rest of this cmmunity to it.

 

Pete,

yes that's all very logical but of course it's all about faith. They just choose to believe it and that's all there is to it. It does of course confuse the rest of us when they attempt to mix logic in there and then suddenly jump back to faith as soon as their logic is shown to be crap, but that's how they always do it.

While I have much to say about this last part of your rant, like I said above, I'm done talking with you, but I will say this: note, once again, the sweeping generalizations and this "they" business. Perhaps somebody else of Christian faith might take over.

If God was John Lennon, he'd say this..."Love Love Love....Love Love Love...Love Love Love...It's eeeeeeeeeeeahzey!"

I'm sorry everyone is so upset!

i think that what needs to be recognised is the differences in culture.

north american culture is far more religion based than western european culture (exceptions being jay and michael that i know of). a generalisation that i could make is that americans tend to be more religious, and europeans tend not to be. thankfully (from my point of view) religion (especially christianity) is dying here, with more and more people questioning the very roots of faith, the bible and the lack of any logic or proof.

it seems though that religion is pushed far more in america, with there being large fundamental christian groups holding huge political power. for f##ks sake, you guys have a museum of creation!

anyways, to offer hopefully constructive criticism; jay you were maybe a little quick to become aggressive. compassionate girl, you are sometimes too emotional (compassionate) in posts. combined with their generally enormous length, it can be hard to concentrate on them. whilst you are usually well informed, the facts tend to be muddled in with large amounts of opinion and emotional writing. with a confusing and long winded style of writing, it is easy for us to make mistakes. and whilst i respect your opinion, and acknowledge that we strongly disagree on this topic, the way to make progress in a debate is not to bog your opponent down with 15minutes of reading, as they are more than likely to just skim it and misinterpret what you are trying to say.

sorry, if any of that sounds too personal, im only trying to offer constructive advice.

jonathan

i think that it was also said that this board is special due to everyone respecting one another. whilst i fully agree with that statement, we also need to respect that we are a very diverse group of people.

what really defines a board in my opinion is the ability for members to hae intelligent debate without it resulting in a brawl. i am not one for a board where someone states something controversial as fact, and for everyone to agree, even if they dont, in order not to spoil the 'special' nature of the board.

i have to say that i love debates, and will debate till everyone is blue in the face. but i am of the opinion that unless we constatly challenge our views, we cannot justify them.

jonathan

 

what really defines a board in my opinion is the ability for members to hae intelligent debate without it resulting in a brawl. i am not one for a board where someone states something controversial as fact, and for everyone to agree, even if they dont, in order not to spoil the 'special' nature of the board.

 

jonathan

Jonathan,

The issue is OBVIOUSLY not one of everybody having to agree so as not to spoil the special' nature of the board. The issue is one of personal attacks on people, especially when you have had next to no online interaction with them. You and I disagree on pretty much everything except people should be vegan and animals' have rights. But, although we have butted heads on numerous occasions, we have developed a good online friendship and mutual respect (i think). Why? Because, among other reasons, as much as we have strongly and passionately disagreed on almost every single forum topic, we have never resorted to personal attacks.

the facts tend to be muddled in with large amounts of opinion and emotional writing. with a confusing and long winded style of writing, it is easy for us to make mistakes. and whilst i respect your opinion, and acknowledge that we strongly disagree on this topic, the way to make progress in a debate is not to bog your opponent down with 15minutes of reading, as they are more than likely to just skim it and misinterpret what you are trying to say.

 

sorry, if any of that sounds too personal, im only trying to offer constructive advice.

 

jonathan

Jonathan,

The art of debating is something that is required in my choice of profession, so I am well versed in the finer points of the skill. BUT I wasnt even trying to debate anybody on the existence of God. That wasnt the original purpose of this thread. But you and I have discussed this point already. And the posts are of an "enormous length" here because many of them reproduce whol paragraphs of a book that I believe would be of interest to some people, especially Christians trying to make sense of animal sacrifices in the old testament. Instead of saying "go look it up" , I typed them in my posts directly for everybody else's convenience. At any rate, to state the obvious, nobody is required to read any post that anybody else types. If something is too long for you to read, then skip it or skim it or do whatever. But I dont appreciate personal attacks, will not put up with personal attacks (especially when the attacker presumes to know me when he really hasnt a clue), and I dont think they make any positive contribution to this board which Rob has worked so hard on.

And out of respect for Rob, I will bite my tongue and go no further in the ring with Jay, assuming of course that he provokes me no further as well.

I'm agnostic and I see religion as a neutral thing. Religious texts can be used for good or evil depending on how one interprets the texts and teachings of any religion. Just compare someone like Mohandas Gandhi with a suicide bomber who kills innocent people - both are deeply religious, they each just interpret religion in a different way. Basically, I support anyone who believes in a religion and interprets it in a way that promotes peace, and I'm opposed to the beliefs of anyone who interprets religion in a way that promotes hatred.

x: heey where did the message go?

compassionate girl, you are sometimes too emotional (compassionate) in posts.

jonathan

ya I know, one of many huge character flaws.

Hey CG,

I hope you didn't think I was trying to attack you or anything

I may not agree with organised religion & stuff, but I would hate to upset you (I'd rather have not posted at all ).

As this thread seems to be ending about now just wanted to clear that up incase I had said something that upset ya. All the best...

compassionate girl, you are sometimes too emotional (compassionate) in posts.

jonathan

 

ya I know, one of many huge character flaws.

that was not meant as a criticism of actually feeling emotional about something rather a point about sacrificing a reasoned and logical outlook.

from my experience, you will not progress in debating if you appeal to peoples compassionate side, as some people have severally diminished capabilities for it. however, logic is something that is indisputable, and once you have them cornered, there is no way out.

anyways, to explain my situation a little more clearly, for the first few months of being vegan i was proactive in finding out about animal abuses from all corners of the world and ranting about them, but that served to have only one effect - it depressed me. there is nothing that you can do to change it, which is why it is so depressing. now i dont look for ways to upset myself - we all know it is happening - why do we have to constantly subject ourselves to stuff that upsets us - are we afraid that if we dont we wont be vegan any more? if im honest, i dont care that much about animals or humans, though i do strive for a lifestyle that causes the least posible suffering. hence when i am promoting veganism i use logical debate (as i do with any subject matter) rather than emotional persuasion.

jonathan

 

 

when i am promoting veganism i use logical debate (as i do with any subject matter) rather than emotional persuasion.

 

jonathan

yes, I know, and it is one of the many qualities I admire about you.

P.S. Pete, no worries! My posts above were not directed at you.

I've been reading along quietly with this thread for awhile now...I don't have anything particularly helpful to add, which is why I haven't. I must say though, compassionategirl, kudos to you for your thoroughness! You make very eloquent points and seem well versed in biblical topics. And kudos to the others that have replied in a respectful manner and made logical arguments.

I was a bit concerned when things started getting heated, but what I love about this board is the mutual respect everyone has! So glad to see it's calmed back down!

Love to all!