compassionategirl

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Countries around the world pledged to protect the whales and codified that promise in treaties and regulations, and yet the protections were all on paper. In reality the whales of the Southern Ocean, of all the oceans, were as vulnerable as if there had been no treaties at all. The Japanese whalers allotted themselves whatever number they wished to kill, endangered and nonendangered species alike, and they came down and took them. They shot them right over Greenpeace's head. The whales could not advocate for themselves. They had no ally on the entire planet that was willing to intervene at all costs, even death, except Watson and Sea Shepherd. Human beings are willing to lay down their lives for territory, resources, national honor, religion. Why not for another species? For more, read http://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/0605/features/whales-4.html

huh? Who said anything about turning people vegan overnight? I believe I stated that some people who became vegan were not only unwilling when they were first exposed to animal rights and/or veganism, but were vociferously defiant. Furthermore, by encouraging/condoning (whatever you want to call it) somebody who is already highly unreceptive to veganism to "at least eat free range then", you are NOT "weaning them off" animal produce, so dont kid yourself. What you probably are doing though is cementing their "unveganness" even further by lulling their consciences into a false sense of "this is ethical, benign, etc". okay i think im done here. No sense in debating with somebody who isnt going to even acknowledge the shortcomings of their arguments.

Thanks for the detailed intro loveliberate.

That chick that plays the mom- i think Kelly Rowan is her name - I remember she was on "Balance: Television for Living Well" - a local show, and she proudly announced "I am not a vegetarian" even though nobody had even asked her. As if "not being a vegetarian" and eating dead animals is something to proudly announce without even being prompted or asked. What an airhead. Anyway, I know this is an entertainment thread but had to get it off my chest. Please carry on with the entertainment.

or instead of wasting energies on welfare type change, you can engage in vegan outreach. In other words, if you are convinced that Joe aint gonna go vegan no matter what, move on to jane and convince jane to go vegan, instead of convicing Joe to go free range. And if jane is not going to bite than move on to Fred. And how do you know that joe aint gonna go vegan no matter what, and that by reluctantly encouraging free range, you have actually shot yourself in the foot because he would have gone vegan eventually? Many people initially display not only unwillingness, but vociferous defiance. Some of them though actually go vegan at some subsequent point. I think Crash had a signature quote once about the stages that Truth goes through.... There are potential VEGANS out there that will be vegan for life once they have that lightbulb moment. What serves animals better: wasting time and energy convincing Joe to go free range (which is many cases is a joke), or convincing Fred to go vegan? Hard to say. : Both approaches have their drawbacks and their merits. Okay, I think I have made my point - no need to keep reiterating.

OMG flannel pillow coverings are hell for me. Even cotton does stay cool enough. I wish they would invent a water pillow that had refridgeration at the center of it to keep the water ice cold.

Thanks guys.

another thing is that i am constantly flipping my pillow cuz I am always wanting the cool side. SOmetimes I even put it in the freezer for a lil while before I crash. My poor future husband aint gonna be getting any sleep lying next to me. We may have to sleep in two twins beds pushed together. anybody else like a nice cold pillow?

Robert, I am SO holding you to that promise. You are going to practically give me a whole new neck. So dont forget your massage oils.

see blue Eating an egg and eating a deceased animal are two TOTALLY different things. The latter was formly a living, breathing, feeling, thinking being. The former was nothing but a waste product; it would NEVER form into a being... But after the animal has died of natural causes, it is not a "living breathing entity." And its death was nobody's fault. So why not indulge tastebuds then? What is the harm? It is no more ethically problematic than eating an unfertilized abandoned egg. I dont see how you can maintain a logical or relevant difference here between the two situations, and hence the slippery slope. What DOES harm the chicken are the horrible conditions that are imposed on the chicken when the chicken is subjected to the cruelties of factory farms. No shelbs, the root cause of the harm that animals endure is our mentality of commodification/exploitation/commercialization because it is that mentality that makes factory farms possible in the first place. Factory farming is a symptom of a much more fundamental disease. And cruelty free bla bla, just like the concept and practice of "kind, loving and responsible pet breeders", does NOTHING to expunge that mentality. IN fact, it serves to dangerously make people even more comfortable with it. It encourages complacency. It eases consciences and removes the need to fundamentally question our relationship with animals. It gives people one less reason to go veg*n. Small, family owned organic farms do not impose such horrib conditions on their chickens. They treat them as pets, similar to as one would treat their dog. Some of these farms also send their "pet" hens to slaughter when they are no longer useful in terms of egg laying. We already know that in most cases, free range isnt all that free, as Kathyrn said. The only situation that comes anywhere near acceptable imo is that which Will described, but even then, even that, ultimately accepts rather than rejects, animals as commodities, as items to be exploited, which is why I am uneasy about it. Without these farms, all chickens would live at factory farms (unless a sactuary saves them). Personally, I'd rather have the chicken live at a family owned organic farm than the factory farm, even if that means having the chicken give up her eggs. See above complacency argument. Unfortunately, the whole world is run on some level of exploitation. It's almost unavoidable. And this is an argument that is frequently invoked by omnis to avoid going veg, isnt it. Should we really be confirming the validity of it as any kind of excuse for inaction or half-ass action? It is unavoidable that you are going to cause some harm sometime. That is unavoidable, yes. But it is not "unavoidable" to go vegan and thereby cause less of it. That isnt unavoidable. So instead of echoing omni sentiments, I think we as ethical vegans have a responsibility to point out that the inability to avoid all harm is no reason to try and avoid as much as possible. However, I'd rather see the more "compassionate" and less patronizing form of "exploitation" than that seen from factory farms! Obviously, as would most decent people on the face of the earth. But that isnt really the point though is it. The only relevant question here is how are vegans' energies more effectively spent in effecting real and lasting change for animals? Are they better spent on welfare reforms, or are they better spent on vegan outreach? And that is the million dollar question. This is not a question that we are going to solve today. It has been debated for decades and both sides - i.e. "pure, unrelenting rights" versus "welfare for now with the ultimate goal of rights" - have meritorious and common sensical arguments. And each approach has significant drawbacks that should be fully appreciated.

Ive found the memory foam pillows too firm.

sorry to hear you lost your job endcruelty.

I have had a sore neck for a while now which does not seem to be improving, even though I got a nice therapeutic massage yesterday. I thik my pillows suck. They just dont seem comfy anymore. I saw an infomercial (I was up late cuz I couldnt sleep cuz my neck was sore cuz my pillow sucks), and saw something called the "Yubisacki" pillow. Sounded good. Also, tonight I am going to go and try a waterpillow. Any opinions on pillows? What kind do you have? DO you like it? How many pillows do you sleep with? Do you sleep on your back or side or stomach? I start on my back, then quickly start tossing and turning from side to side, and then usually end up on my stomach (which is apparently the worst sleeping position for your intenal organs and facial skin). Details please details. and advice on the world's best, most COMFY pillow. Lezly had posted something on this but cant find her post.

You sure on that? There could be a million vegans in the UK alone..... ya, i actually dont have a resource for that at all. Dont even know what the population of Toronto is, maybe 3 million? Have no idea how many vegans there are in the world, but I imagine it would be less than say 2% of the world's population? That is just a guess. I was just feeling extra depressed, pessimistic and negative today after reading that GOOD produce is thrown out by the billions of tons instead of fed to starving people. Truly, truly, truly sickening. Even that is ssuch an understatement.

You are underestimating our charms tarz.

And, killing an animal and eating it's period waste are two totally different things. In one scenario, you are taking a life. In the other, you are removing a waste product. Big difference. You will notice that my question was would you eat a compassionately reared chicken if it died of natural causes. I later typed "naturally killed" which probably explains the confusion. I meant a chicken that died of natural causes - not "naturally killed." So, no, there is no relevant difference between eating a chicken that died of natural causes, or eating your cat that died of natural causes, and eating an egg that was abandoned/wasted/left behind. What is the diff? Both activities appear to be ethically benign, dont they? It may be a give and take relationship under those circs as you describe, but it is a relationship that is imposed on a hen who has no choice in the matter. It is patronizing and human-centred relationship. I have no idea how egg laying works in practice, and that is why I relied here on Crystal's experience working at the Farm Sanctuary. Theoretically, it is a slippery slope though.

http://www.canadiangeographic.ca/poll/poll.asp Thanks! And please once again email or post think link to others and other sites, PLEASE. Many thanks.

Loch Ness is there for everyone, it's the lake the monster lives in. The monster is called Nessie by the way. I'll be impressed if Nessie makes himself known just coz CG is in town, when he has stayed hidden from thousands of cryptozoologists, documentary makers, photographers, reporters, tourists etc for the last 70 odd years. I am sure Crash and I can coax Nessie into coming out with our charm. We will put all those zoocrypt people to shame.

hey jay! Are you back home now or still on Los Alamos? I hope you are feelin rested and happy.

WOW!!!!

I think I was most shocked by the amount of time it takes nature to produce a mere one inch of topsoil (up to 800 years), and also by the fact that the EU destroys billions of kilos of GOOD produce a year simply because it couldnt be sold, rather than feeding starving kids with that good produce (see fact #1 in my second post above). I think that fact alone truly speaks volumes about how effed up our world is. I still cant get over that. Did any of you know this before you read it here? It was certainly news to me. yes, fin it is VERY disheartening. any very discouraging to know that the amount of vegans on this entire planet is less than the population of Toronto.

neil, I can assure you that a six pack is a must have, so get cracking.

I have to say it is pretty damn embarrassing to be a Canadian these days. We have a Prime Minster who believes the world is only 4,000 years old, denies global warming and thinks killing seals is a national pastime and heaps of fun.

Speaking of environmental issues, ethical issues and sustainability, guess what our new government's position is on global warming JW! : "The election of Conservative Prime Minister Stephen Harper has turned bad into worse. The government of Liberal Prime Minister Paul Martin was bad but Harper makes Martin look like a saint. Canada was taking a leadership role in fighting global warming (key word being "was") and was one of the first nations to sign the Kyoto Treaty on Climate Change. Martin did not really do much to actually deal with climate change but at least his government appeared interested and they did have a budget for it. Harper on the other hand has rejected Kyoto completely and has slashed the budget. The Conservatives have decided to slash spending on Environment Canada programs designed to fight global warming by 80 per cent, and wants cuts of 40 per cent in the budgets devoted to climate change at other ministries. The part of the budget they did keep was to cover the salaries of the bureaucrats who will now be working on issues they have no funding for. But firing civil servants in Ottawa is as unthinkable for the government as ending the slaughter of seals. Meanwhile a German film crew working on a documentary on climate change was prevented from leaving the airport with their helicopter from Cartwright, Labrador after a mob of seal hunt supporters assaulted them and sat on the pontoons of the helicopters to prevent them from leaving. Once again lawlessness is being given free reign on the East coast of Canada as the fabled Mounties turn a blind eye to violence on the Eastern coast of Canada. Rosetta Holwell, the mayor of Cartwright, said she didn't accept the group's claim it was there to film a documentary about climate change. "I think the people in Cartwright have some concerns [because] there's a lot of people from Cartwright that are out sealing right now," said RCMP Cpl. Mark Hancock. In other words intimidation is justified when it comes from pro-sealers. Rebecca Aldworth and her crew with the Humane Society were also in Cartwright and were unable to fly out and retreated to Blanc Sablon, Quebec on the Labrador border where they were assaulted again, this time a truck rammed a van carrying seal defenders and reporters. Defending seals in Eastern Canada is a risky crusade. A seal defender is forced to enter hostile territory without any guarantee of police protection from violent defenders of sealing. It has now been revealed that the quota for seals in the Gulf was exceeded by over 16,000 animals. Yet not one sealer was arrested for violating the quota. It also appears that Canadian politicians are going a little Medieval in their behaviour. Labrador Member of Parliament Todd Russell, a Liberal MP has got himself a sealing license and is at the Front killing seals himself. I guess his hefty salary as a Federal politician is not making ends meet and he needs to pick up some extra cash. Russell is a prime example of how sealers kill for pleasure and not for necessity. Defending his killing spree, Russell said, "I couldn't find a better way to support the people that I represent than to be out there with them in some concrete way, in some way that they could understand," Russell said before the hunt began. The question must be asked, when did you last see a Member of Parliament flipping burgers, delivering the mail, working construction or selling newspapers? Russell said he will be bringing back seal flippers to cook up and serve to his fellow Members of Parliament in Ottawa. Ahh the Great White North, where elected politicians sit around and gnaw on the flippers of seals like a bunch of ignorant savages as they brag to the world about what a wonderful sport it is to kill baby seals.Mahatma Ghandi once said when asked about Western Civilization, “I think it would be a great idea.”