jcdenton

Why did I even bother...

Peter Gelderloos - Veganism is a Consumer Activity.

Any thoughts? Made me thinking.

Tough luck, many find fasted workouts to actually be better than fed workouts. To each his/her own, I suppose.

I used to be bloated in the past, but now I eat beans by the kilogram and hardly ever even fart. Well, sometimes. I guess it just takes time to get used to the amounts of fiber a vegan gets. If it doesn't go away after a month or so, I'd experiment with different foods to see which agree with your digestive system better.

And, btw, there's no need to eat bucketloads of soy to get protein - there are many fine sources. I hardly eat soy these days, just got bored of it.

Absolutely stellar! Pretty much the perfect posterboy for veganism

I would guess I'm at no more than 1500 calories, but only around 60g of protein.

 

As long as I'm not noticing a decrease in strength, should the low protein level (compared to the 1g/lb) be a concern? Or would upping my protein intake make shedding fat any easier even though it would be an increase in calories?

1500 calories seems very low to me. Especially if you're training multiple times per week. You shouldn't be losing any more than 1-2 pounds a week. Unless you're way overweight.

No, an increase in protein intake certainly wouldn't make fat-loss any speedier, but it may be wise if you want to preserve as much muscle as possible. Experiment, see how you feel and track your progress. That's the only fool-proof way to find what works and what doesn't work for you personally.

Is there such a thing when trying to cut?

Not really. Unless, of course, you could your calories to such a ridiculously low level that you start losing muscle together with the fat.

I'm trying to get my BF% down while maintaining the muscle I have. I feel great, but it doesn't seem like I'm eating a whole lot. I've eaten the following for about a week:

 

Ultimate Meal w/ apple & banana

B12 supp.

 

3/4 c oatmeal

1/3 c almonds

1/3 c raisins

 

Ultimate Meal w/ apple & banana

 

3/4 c brown rice or quinoa

1/2 c beans

1 tomato

1 sweet potato

1 giant handful baby spinach

 

Should I make any changes or keep with this?

 

Background:

I'm 6'2" and about 186 now w/ a BF% in the low teens. Ideally, I would like to walk around at 180(the weight I want to fight at) and single digit BF

 

Training consists of heavy weights and low reps(20 mins) and martial arts(1-1.5 hrs.)

Not sure how many calories and how much protein all that is, but if you're losing 1-2lb per week and maintaining your strenght, you're probably doing fine.

I'd recommend taking in roughly (I say roughly because there's no need to stress over precise amounts) 1g/lb of protein. It may not be necessary, but it ain't gonna hurt either.

Good luck!

I agree, Richard!

Cold, do you have a filter installed in your brain which transforms all your thoughts into Earth Crisis-style tough-guy-talk? It is not cool, it's hilarious. No offence, just sayin'

Also, I think it's about time we stopped trashing this thread and discuss vegan righteousness via PM's or e-mail.

Peace!

Strong women just look like strong women.

An excellent point! Strong women don't look like strong men - they look like strong women

Refusing animal products all together is the way to get companies to only make vegan options.

As long as there is demand for animal products in general, there will be more than adequate supply. Besides, I do not believe that any kind of meaningful, long-term change could come about through the market.

And i would not eat a product of torture.

Oh, you will. Harvesting grains and other plant foods is responsible for a considerable amount of animal deaths each year.

And you will also:

- read a product of torture;

- use transportation other than your own two feet, thus contributing to climate change, which, in turn, harms animals;

etc., etc. It's not as clear-cut as we'd like to believe.

We can not exist on this planet without inflicting at least a little bit of misery and death on animals.

Take more pride in yourselves and you beliefs.

I do not "have" beliefs in that I don't cherish them as my property - as something that I have complete control over for whole eternity. I like to think of any ideas I currently sympathise with as provisional rather than final. So, in the case of veganism, as I've already mentioned in my previous post, "[it] isn't about purity or following rigid rules, but, rather, about minimizing animal abuse. And there's more to it than just doing this and not doing that."

My family used to be afraid to make food for me because of how strict I was.. So I can see Vegeta's point. I'm not a vegan anymore, but even as a vegan, I never called myself one because people would react negatively.. Not only that but I felt like a hypocrite calling myself "vegan" when I would knowingly use items containing animal products such as riding my motorcycle with a leather seat ya know? Or electricity which kills thousands of animals a year.

 

So, if I'm at a family BBQ, and I eat my veggie burger on a bun containing a little whey powder, I'm not going to flip out.

 

I will say one thing about the company I work for though. Not only did they bring in vegan burger patties for me at the company BBQ, but they also brought in a second grill to cook it on that was seperate from the beef burgers. I was so impressed and honoured they went through all that trouble for me. It was so sweet I almost cried! Lol!

Sometimes I also eat stuff with trace amounts of whey, eggs or other animal products in it - does that make me a vegetarian? I just don't see any point in obsessing over such miniscule things. Those ingredients are simply by-products of animal agriculture which would go away together with the industry. As I see it, trying to avoiding such ingredients 100% of the time doesn't do anything to change the situation, so I don't bother. Besides, as I've mentioned above, it is, after all, impossible. We would even have to give up books as they're usually bound with animal-derived glue. You can't make perfect decisions in an imperfect world.

To me, veganism isn't about purity or following rigid rules, but, rather, about minimizing animal abuse. And there's more to it than just doing this and not doing that.

Riding on a leather seat is pretty lame, though

Some people are non responders and I honestly think there are way better supps to spend the money on.

like what?

But to be honest with you the best way to take creatine is to use the micronized monohydrate and don't do any loading and cruising phases. that's a waste... the ultimate way of using creatine to it's full potential is this: 3 days on then 3 days off. On those 3 days you are taking creatine you will take a total of 25 - 30g a day. then the next 3 days you take NONE. repeat and do this as long as you want.

is this your personal experience or is there any data to support it?

ok I'll check the calories but what do you think about the increase of fat in the abdomen despite the weight loss? ..thanks

I've no idea. I can't see how could that have happened. are you sure it isn't just bloat from too many beans or just carbs in general? how do you measure your body composition?

Lift heavy and eat WAY MORE than you do now! You're skinny as hell, what was the point of this "experiment"?

Not trying to be mean or anything.

And yeah, no need for butter - you can get SFA and MUFA from palm oil, coconut oil, olive oil, macadamia oil, etc.

.. I only changed the diet .. my training is always the same

then my advice (to be taken into consideration or not) is to just try playing around with different foods and see what works best. people who fail to thrive on a vegan diet no matter what are a very rare case in deed.

hey, richard! what about your podcast? is it dead? I really liked that shit

hello Mizzourunner, Vege, Strategist and Hi beautiful HCPinGviini from Finland

 

Sorry if we made this little speech in Italian .. I translate for you in English the question who I asked to Rawman:

 

I switched to the vegan diet six months ago, I'm 41 years old and I'm 1.80 tall .. .I have since lost weight and muscles and increased fat in abdomen, I went down from 71 kilos to 69 kilos.. obviously there 's something wrong in my new diet .. who can give me any advice?

 

my diet consists of 2 main meals, 1 breakfast and 2 snacks per day includes:

raw fruits and vegetables, whole grains and vegetables cooked or sprouted and made into salad, avocado, nuts, peanut butter, potatoes, pumpkin, oatmeal, tofu, seitan, soy milk, almonds, rice and oat flour, carob, whole wheat pasta and bread in moderation, pizza without mozzarella cheese 1 / 2 times a week ...

 

thanks a lot

 

Frank

has your workout routine changed any? anything else changed (apart from diet)? food options sound well enough.

meat eaters usually get somewhere between 1-2g/day, if it isn't destroyed by heat.

there are two ways you can take it:

1) load on it. take 20-25g per day (spread out throughout the day into multiple servings) for 5 days and then take 5-10g to "maintain".

2) or you can just take 5g/day every day. your muscles won't saturate as fast using this method, but the end result will be the same - after about 4 weeks you'll be chock-full of the stuff.

it is also advised to take creatine in cycles. for example, 2 months on, 1 month off.

here's a decent resource on the topic: creatine myths and facts.

hope that helps.

I'm not someone who minds eating the same things every day, if it tastes good.

same here, mate!

If this can stay vegan, that would be great, I doubt I'm going to completely abolish all dairy products from the diet, but I can start removing them.

hey, don't sell yourself short you can do it!

Oats w/ Soy Milk, Fruit, Vitamins, OJ

Protein Shake, Fruit, Water

Whole Grain PB/Banana Sandwich, Salad, Water

Stir Fry (Tofu, Veggies, Rice, Sauce), Water

Hummus/Veggie Sandwich, Water

Vegetable Soups (Minestrone, Lentil, or Bean), Salad, Water

Smoothie w/ Protein, Water

seems fine to me. I'd drop the oj, though. again, just monitor your weight weekly - if it's slowly creeping up (about 0,5-1lb a week), you're doing fine. if not, EAT MOARRR!!!

I see that a lot of people here eat quinoa regularly. I've never had any, so what are some easy and tasteful ways to prepare it? Is it a main dish, a supplementary/side, or what? It looks like a good source of protein and other nutrition.

yeah, it is a pretty good source of protein. you can substitute it for rice and other grains or just eat it as a main dish with a big-ass veggie & tofu salad. I'm sure someone else will post some tasty recipes - I'm not that skilled a chef.

What vegan alternative to milk has the highest concentrated protein and other nutrition, almond, rice, soy, any others? Which one tastes the best in cooking?

soy milk has the most protein and the most overall calories. yet I wouldn't write the other plant milks off just because of that - they're just as (if not more) tasty and nutritious. well, maybe except rice milk.

Sorry to load this thread down with a million questions.

no need to feel sorry - questions is what this forum is for

I'm sure some people find that really high protein works for them, but of course, everyone is different.

might be. migh also be the extra calories that usually accompany protein foods.

as far as I know, in most cases the culprit is not enough calories, crappy lifting routine, lack of sleep, too much stress, etc. not a lack of protein.

if you want to maintaing your current weight while gaining lean mass at the same time, it means you want to lose fat and gain muscle simultaneously. while this isn't impossible, it is pretty tough. you will need to play around with your caloric intake during the week - try to eat more on training days and below maintenance on rest days. at "worst", you'll lose the fat but will keep the muscle, which means that your bodyweight will go down a bit. but I wouldn't worry about that - after all, it's just chub, useless dead weight.

there are no cheaper protein sources than whole foods - you can't beat beans, lentils and tofu. no need for expensive protein powders.

In my opinion 250g protein is needed only if you are 300 LBS roid monster (= pro bodybuilder). Someone around 200 lbs should be fine with ~ 100-150g protein and all above that goes to waist instead of muscles.

/agree

BTW, I don't think 1 litre of soymilk is even that much. It's just 30g of protein. I can drink that in one minute for a snack.

yeah, it isn't that much, but I was adding it to an already high-calorie, high-protein (170-180g/day) diet because I was affraid I wasn't getting enough protein. which was not the case, obviously.

Hey jcdenton thanks for the response, my goals are more like losing bodyfat but not going all skinny, i mean, losing the extra bodyfat and at the same time try to gain a little bit of muscle, not too much, just like to stay healthy and stay fit.

then the most important thing is diet. you need to eat a little bit below your maintenance level, which requires a bit of experimentation if you don't know already know how much you need to eat to maintain your current bodyweight.

losing fat and gaining muscle at the same time may not be the easiest thing, but it is possible. you can try eating at or a little above maintenance on lifting days and slightly below on rest days. this way your weekly calorie balance will be negative, but, potentially, you'll be preserving - or even building some new - muscle on the higher calorie days. for example, if your maintenance caloric intake is, say, 2500kcal, you can try eating roughly 3500kcal on lifting days (and build a tad of mass) and 1200kcal on rest days (lose a tad of bodyfat). then your weekly balance will be only 2100+ and so you'll be losing fat and maybe even adding a wee bit of extra muscle. you can also try some form of intermittent fasting - seems to be working marvelously for most people who try it.

as for a lifting routine, I still recommend the ones I listed above. you need heavy weights and low(ish) reps to signal your body that even though you're on a caloric deficit, you need those muscles.

on of my biggest goals its to prove that vegans are not all skinny and without a great, fit, healthy body, there´s a lot of sterotypes down here in mexico (I imagine that in the USA too, but not as much in mexico) with being vegetarian, now imagine how people react when you tell that you don´t eat any dairy, eggs nor animal products

hey, that's one of my own motivations, too! although I'm not from the US, so I don't really know too much about how does it feel to be vegan over there.

what can you recommend?

see above.

Which is odd, as everything I've read in the past that had to do with caloric restriction had always insisted that taking in high protein was essential for sparing muscle optimally, particularly when weight training was being done as well. Lots of people have sworn by Lyle MacDonald's ultra-low calorie /low carb fat loss programs (not that they're vegan-friendly, but apparently effective nonetheless), all of which apparently have been extensively tested to find that high protein intake was essential to their success. Perhaps it has some difference with calorie restricted diets that aren't low-carb, but the general concensus I've always come across is that reducing protein levels while doing weight training and being in a caloric defeceit = faster muscle loss vs. diets with higher protein levels.

sure, a little bit of extra protein while dieting might be a good idea - and I certainly don't mean to be yet another vegan claiming we need teh enzymes instead of a decent amount of protein - my point is that we probably don't need nearly as much of it as a lot of folks believe we do. which seems reasonable even on a commonsense level - we're mostly water, not protein. personally, I've never seen any difference between 100 and 250g of protein, whether dieting or trying to gain. what always helped was more calories and a smarter training regimen, not chugging down 1l of soymilk after workouts (which I used to do for like half a year or so).

For example for weight loss you need a decent amount of protein to get the best results (1g per lbs should be fine):

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19927027

sure, but that doesn't have anything to do with making training easier or/and bringing about results faster. also, there's some data suggesting that even on an extreme, very low-calorie diet people don't lose any significant lean mass as long as they weight train. so if you want to spare muscle mass, you should continue lifting, not cramming a ton of protein in your diet. which, by the way, was always my experience while dieting.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17679046

this only shows that consuming creatine is superior to not consuming creatine, nothing to do with protein powders.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16988909

this one's fairly interesting, but we don't know anything about the subjects' diets, so I wouldn't rush to make conclusions. I've seen loads of studies demonstrating that there's no benefit in adding extra protein to an already solid whole foods based diet.

a great read on this topic is brad pilon's "how much protein?". the dude's pretty beefy and he eats between 70-120g of protein a day. if you're interested, I can send it to you via e-mail.