Hysteria about 'the amount of sugar' in fruit

[seitan_man]

Several people over the last few days have spoken to me about not consuming too much fruit due to the amount of sugar ('natural' sugar) it contains.

 

I obviously know that refined sugar is something to be avoided, but could someone please explain if fruit should only be eaten in moderation?

[damdaman]

Eating whole fruit is not the same as eating refined sugar, or even fruit juice. The reason is mostly because of fiber. When you consume whole fruit, you consume fiber as well as sugar. Fiber slows down the rate at which your body absorbs the sugar, thus minimizing the impact that the fruit has on your blood sugar, producing a much more sustained energy boost. Sugar without fiber has a fast and substantial impact on blood sugar, providing a quick boost of energy that then causes a "crash" when your body releases insulin to combat the sugar spike. This spike/crash is what makes sugar bad for you. Since eating whole fruit does not cause this, don't listen to the people who are "hysterical" about the amount of sugar in fruit. Fruit is good for you.

[Marcina]

I eat a ton of fruit and I'm fine ^^

[seitan_man]

Eating whole fruit is not the same as eating refined sugar, or even fruit juice. The reason is mostly because of fiber. When you consume whole fruit, you consume fiber as well as sugar. Fiber slows down the rate at which your body absorbs the sugar, thus minimizing the impact that the fruit has on your blood sugar, producing a much more sustained energy boost. Sugar without fiber has a fast and substantial impact on blood sugar, providing a quick boost of energy that then causes a "crash" when your body releases insulin to combat the sugar spike. This spike/crash is what makes sugar bad for you. Since eating whole fruit does not cause this, don't listen to the people who are "hysterical" about the amount of sugar in fruit. Fruit is good for you.

 

Thanks for clarifying that clearly for me. I take it the same rules would apply if fruit was blended to make a smoothie, or would that be classed as 'fruit juice'? How exactly is fruit juice worse than whole fruit, apart from the fact that sugar is often added to fruit juice drinks?!?

[damdaman]

Eating whole fruit is not the same as eating refined sugar, or even fruit juice. The reason is mostly because of fiber. When you consume whole fruit, you consume fiber as well as sugar. Fiber slows down the rate at which your body absorbs the sugar, thus minimizing the impact that the fruit has on your blood sugar, producing a much more sustained energy boost. Sugar without fiber has a fast and substantial impact on blood sugar, providing a quick boost of energy that then causes a "crash" when your body releases insulin to combat the sugar spike. This spike/crash is what makes sugar bad for you. Since eating whole fruit does not cause this, don't listen to the people who are "hysterical" about the amount of sugar in fruit. Fruit is good for you.

 

Thanks for clarifying that clearly for me. I take it the same rules would apply if fruit was blended to make a smoothie, or would that be classed as 'fruit juice'? How exactly is fruit juice worse than whole fruit, apart from the fact that sugar is often added to fruit juice drinks?!?

 

Yeah, the same rules would apply for blended smoothies as long as you're blending the whole fruit; the fiber in the blended smoothie slows the absorption of sugar, thus providing healthy, sustained energy. The reason fruit juice is different is because the fiber is not present, by juicing the fruit you are by definition removing the fiber to leave only the sugary juice behind. I think fruit juice is still good for you in many ways, but you do need to be careful of the sugar content if you're drinking a lot of it.

[Marcina]

nah, if you blend the fruit in a smoothie you usually put the whole thing in so the fiber and everything goes with it.

 

If you're juicing your own fruit, it's more beneficial. Store bought fruit juices are usually concentrated, or pasteurized which destroys a lot of the enzymes and other good things in the juice. They also add sugar and/or preservatives and other bad stuff. I try to limit myself with store bought juices.

[seitan_man]

Again, thanks for explaining things. One last question, how do the 'insulin spikes' from sugar cause problems such as weight gain as such?

[damdaman]

Again, thanks for explaining things. One last question, how do the 'insulin spikes' from sugar cause problems such as weight gain as such?

 

Insulin regulates your blood sugar by helping your cells absorb sugar (glucose). Any excess glucose that your cells don't need is then turned into fat. Normally your cells do not absorb all that glucose and it is excreted in your urine, thus not turning to fat, but when your blood sugar spikes and triggers an insulin spike all that glucose is being absorbed by your cells, rather than only what they need.

[seitan_man]

Thanks once again for the excellent info. Much appreciated!

[Im Your Man]

as said in the previous posts, sugar in fruits almost don't raise the sugar level in blood. There's only a few sweet fruits that you need to eat in moderation because they're very high in sugar: bananas, and dried fruits like dates. You can soak dried fruits for like 30 minutes, to remove the excess of sugar. And then you can keep this sugar-water to use it in things that you wish to add sweeteness, like your oatmeal for instance.

You have to be more careful with all refined flour products (bread, pasta, etc) and sugar itself than with fruits.

[veganmaster]

Again, thanks for explaining things. One last question, how do the 'insulin spikes' from sugar cause problems such as weight gain as such?

 

Insulin regulates your blood sugar by helping your cells absorb sugar (glucose). Any excess glucose that your cells don't need is then turned into fat. Normally your cells do not absorb all that glucose and it is excreted in your urine, thus not turning to fat, but when your blood sugar spikes and triggers an insulin spike all that glucose is being absorbed by your cells, rather than only what they need.

 

 

I'd like to expand on this topic. You can eat whole fruit all day long and you will likely not have turned ANY of those sugars into fat via De Novo Lipogenesis. Metabolism science clearly elucidates the way carbohydrate metabolism works (see my other posts for references and very detailed info). DNL is a "quantitatively minor" process, except in situations where huge amounts of simple carbs are overfed for many days at least. The reason for this is twofold:

1) because the way the body responds to increasing CHO intake is to simply oxidize it directly for current energy needs (concomitantly reducing oxidation of other macronutrients). In "Glycogen storage capacity and de novo lipogenesis during massive carbohydrate overfeeding in man" maximum glycogen stores were measured to be ~700g for an average man and 1100g in a collegiate swimmer.

 

2)Because DNL is a very inefficient process, losing up to 30% of the initial energy, the body only chooses this pathway when forced to by MAXED OUT glycogen stores. But most people have hundreds of grams of room to spare, so DNL is rare except in those overfeeding on refined sugars. The "carbs make you fat" meme is a gross exaggeration of the scientific evidence - specifically when you are talking about whole foods*.

 

*Complex carbs (starches) are even less likely to be converted to fat because what the body does is simply burn that steady glucose steam for immediately energy needs. Thus there are many pasta/starch overfeeding studies which show even a huge 1600 kcal pasta meal does not lead to DNL - in fact in the group that performed a little moderate exercise were found to be burning NET FAT DESPITE THE ENORMOUS PASTA MEAL IN THEIR STOMACHS! Simple sugars by themselves, especially in an easily-digestible liquid, may in fact be processed so quickly that our glucose burn rate is momentarily exceeded, but even then the amount is very small, and what matters most is maximum glycogen capacity, which is impossible to overcome without significant sugar overfeeding.

 

The popular idea that carrots or whole fruit turn easily into fat is not supported at all by the scientific evidence. When you eat fruit, the body simply burns the glucose immediately - it's what we are designed to do: efficiently and directly use carbohydrates for energy needs. Any leftover energy needs are met primarily via fat oxidation (even during initial fasting, protein oxidation is a mere 1g/h for an non-obese male - that's a very minor contribution).

 

By the way, those insulin spikes we are talking about have a positive effect on body recomposition by increasing the efficiency of Nitrogen retention (protein).

To speak practically, anyone who is worried about getting fat from low-fat fruits is doing so without logical reason. The evidence of metabolism is clear, though unfortunately not well known. For muscle gain and fat minimization, high carb/very low fat diets are proven to create the best recomposition. There is a reason for the "skinny vegan" meme, and it is that very low-fat vegan foods simply are not metabolized into fat unless enormous amounts are eaten - and with all that fiber it is extraordinarily rare. Thus overweight vegans eat lots of fat, with simple sugars on top of that - this shifts immediate metabolism towards CHO oxidation, while causing fat oxidation to drop. Thus, the fat you eat is the fat you wear.

 

So really, the only drawback to fruit is indeed the high amount of simple sugars - for myself, for example, I eat almost no fruit, whether tomatoes or bananas, because anything sweet hurts my teeth. BUT, that's because I'm a sugar addict, whose only been "on the wagon" for a couple years - my teeth are damaged from decades of stuffing myself with sugary food. But if I had only ever eaten whole fruit my teeth would have never been so damaged. The science shows us that bacteria, including the nefarious streptococcus mutans, feed on simple sugars and release acid waste that dissolves the integrity of teeth. So if you're teeth are already damaged from the SAD diet, a large fruit intake may cause pain/degradation - but the good thing is that mouth will let you know. If you eat something sweet and your teeth ache, it's time to limit sugars and focus on starches, which are the healthiest of all foods (bacteria cannot process those long chains of sugars). And yes, this includes refined starches - refined white flour never destoyed anyone's teeth (simple sugars did)! Although fiber has been removed, the complex chains of sugars remain - and bacteria do not eat starch, they eat simple sugars. I know this from personal experience too because I can eat unlimited white flour with no tooth pain whatsoever - yet if I regularly eat anything sweet, my teeth will let me know quickly. (My daily fasts do give me some wiggle room though, because it starves the bacteria.) I was a huge sugar eater, even after going vegan. Even now I use splenda, which doesn't bother my teeth (so I still have some work to do, but I freak out bigtime without anything sweet).

Edited July 16, 2008 by veganmaster

[damdaman]

For the record I'm not arguing that fruit or starches will make you fat. I do not think they will. I was explaining why insulin spikes are bad for you if you are concerned about such things. While insulin release is natural and will happen no matter what, I do not think that large spikes in blood sugar followed by insulin spikes that crash you out are good for you at all, weight gain issues or not.

 

If you reread my posts I was explaining why whole fruit does NOT cause this to happen, though.

[veganmaster]

For the record I'm not arguing that fruit or starches will make you fat. I do not think they will. I was explaining why insulin spikes are bad for you if you are concerned about such things. While insulin release is natural and will happen no matter what, I do not think that large spikes in blood sugar followed by insulin spikes that crash you out are good for you at all, weight gain issues or not.

 

If you reread my posts I was explaining why whole fruit does NOT cause this to happen, though.

 

I understand - I suppose I was just expanding on these issues, but I see what you mean. I agree whole fruit isn't a problem unless one's teeth are damaged already. I might slightly disagree about the downside of insulin spikes, as high insulin is required for optimum body recomposition (as long as fat is drastically minimized). The studies actually show very low fat starch overfeeding to be the best for muscle gain and fat minimization - because insulin is kept steadily elevated, which shuttles protein into storage (& fat if it's there). But the catch is very low-fat starch overfeeding is very filling - that's why people doing strict McDougall and Pritikin, etc., are so successful at weight maintenance! So when overfeeding I compromise and use low-sugar maltodextrin + soy protein shakes - this does cause a relatively faster, higher spike in insulin, but all you have to do to prevent any excessive dip in blood sugar is to regularly eat complex carbs too.

[seba]

For the record I'm not arguing that fruit or starches will make you fat. I do not think they will. I was explaining why insulin spikes are bad for you if you are concerned about such things. While insulin release is natural and will happen no matter what, I do not think that large spikes in blood sugar followed by insulin spikes that crash you out are good for you at all, weight gain issues or not.

 

If you reread my posts I was explaining why whole fruit does NOT cause this to happen, though.

 

I understand - I suppose I was just expanding on these issues, but I see what you mean. I agree whole fruit isn't a problem unless one's teeth are damaged already. I might slightly disagree about the downside of insulin spikes, as high insulin is required for optimum body recomposition (as long as fat is drastically minimized). The studies actually show very low fat starch overfeeding to be the best for muscle gain and fat minimization - because insulin is kept steadily elevated, which shuttles protein into storage (& fat if it's there). But the catch is very low-fat starch overfeeding is very filling - that's why people doing strict McDougall and Pritikin, etc., are so successful at weight maintenance! So when overfeeding I compromise and use low-sugar maltodextrin + soy protein shakes - this does cause a relatively faster, higher spike in insulin, but all you have to do to prevent any excessive dip in blood sugar is to regularly eat complex carbs too.

 

Hello@all!

Hello Veganmaster,

 

I have diabetes type 1. So i have to look very carefully what i eat and what not. Some fruits let my Bloodsugar explode like bananas. Some sorts of apples in combination with exercises work very well.

I have to say that gettin the Sugar from fruits is a very good thing.

In particular better than from nomal sugar. So my answer for the seitan_man is: eat fruits but totally let refined sugar out of your diet..it can cause diabetes. It is one reason why i have Diabetes because of the excessive amount of mono sugar in the weight gainer shakes etc. Good point from VM that you have to look to get enough fiber.

I have to open a new topic to discuss some questions about this whole insulin part in the muscle grow...