domestication

[Hero]

i feel wierd when i see animals trapped inside a house in this thing we call animal domestication. to me its an like imprisonment.

if you do have a "pet", let the animal run around outside, like the animal was birthed to be....

[sinisterkungfu]

I disagree, unless you've got a nice safe area for your pet to roam around in. If you live in a city it's a terrible idea to let them out, and in most cases is also illegal. Animals that live outdoors have a much greater chance of being killed, taken by someone else, or getting sick. Outdoor pets tend to lead much shorter lives than indoor pets. Contact with other animals can lead to diseases (Feline leukemia, feline HIV, parvo, dystemper, rabies etc) and immunization shots don't necessarily help with all that.

 

I have cats that have been indoor cats all their lives and the refuse to go outside even when given the chance. I'll open the door for them and all they do is stick their heads out for a second and go running back in.

[Hero]

they refuse to go outside because all they know is inside. they'd much rather prefer their "cave".

[sinisterkungfu]

they refuse to go outside because all they know is inside. they'd much rather prefer their "cave".

 

I live out in the country with plenty of wilderness for them to run around in. I've tried on numerous occasions to let them go out and explore, including picking them up and taking them outside. They have no desire to. *shrug*

[Aaron]

Nice that you've provided the option though.

[sinisterkungfu]

Nice that you've provided the option though.

 

It's part of the reason I moved out of my apartment and into the country.

[compassionategirl]

Nice that you've provided the option though.

 

It's part of the reason I moved out of my apartment and into the country.

 

Awww that so sweet (***never thought I would have called you 'sweet' anytime soon ).

 

I agree with both Topher and Sinister.

 

I agree with Topher in that domestication of animals was wrong and that we need to stop breeding more domesticated animals asap (from domesticated food animals all the way to pets).

 

I also agree with Sinister though that the animals that are existing today and domesticated, letting them run around outside is not always wise. I live in a busy busy area with lots of cars (especially young punk kids that are racing all the time). To set my animals free outside would be the equivalent of a death wish for them.

 

One of my cats, Riley, I used to pick up and bring to the back yard of my former residence where I use to stay with him and sort of supervise, protecting him from other potential wild and stray animals, etc. He did love the grass and the outdoors. I am going to do that in the summer time here - there is a park across the street where I can take him, and supervise him to protect him.

 

My other cat, Rambo, is too risky. If he got freaked out about something, he would bolt, I would never see him again, and he would get hit by a car or suffer another horrible fate. Cant risk that.

 

I took him in in the winter time because he was still very young (a kitten), and was freezing in the middle of a cold Canadian winter. He was hungry, sick (lots of worms), etc. I took him in, and gave him a life of luxury, but I also in doing so took away his freedom and domesticated him. I am very torn about this decision. I dont know if it was the right think to do FROM HIS PERSPECTIVE, or whether it was ultimately a selfish act.

 

I am open to hearing other's thoughts on this (i.e. Rambo).

 

[compassionategirl]

. Animals that live outdoors have a much greater chance of being killed, taken by someone else, or getting sick.

 

Yup. And not everybody out there takes animals in for good reasons. Some people literally go around scooping free-roaming animals only to sell them to animal testing facilities There was actually something about this on tv a while back.

 

I remember another story. It was about a cat named Kensington. Two young punks stole the "outdoor cat" and brought him inside. They then got their video camera and taped the brutality that was about to follow. They were dental students, and they grabbed their dental tools, and inflicted the most unspeakable atrocities and torture on this terrified animal while it was still alive. They video recorded this whole thing. The news did not air the contents of that video because they said it was too gruesome and graphic. The investigating officer did go on record saying

 

"Three minutes into the video and I was praying that the cat would die immediately so his gruesome and barbaric suffering would end. Unfortunately, the animal staye alive for twenty minutes of the most cruel and sadistic torture. In twenty years of being a cop, I had never seen anything more heart wrenching."

 

 

Kensington was an outdoor cat. I bet ya his human companions or guardians (whatever you want to call them) are regretting letting him roam about freely, unsupervised.

 

The only good thing that came out of this is that some groups began seriously lobbying the government for stricter animal cruelty penalties, one such penalty being a LIFETIME ban on animal "ownership." I wholeheartedly agree. Anybody that does this should NEVER EVER EVER be allowed to go near an animal ever again.

 

I will never forget that image of Kensington. The fear in his eyes.... it was all over the cover of major newspaper here in the city.

 

It was about four years ago this happened.

[sinisterkungfu]

The thing you have to remember is that some animals, specifically dogs were not domesticated by man, they domesticated themselves. Back when most humans were still nomadic hunter/gatherers, the wolves would follow them searching for food they left behind. Eventually they got brave and started approaching the humans, who would feed them. Over time that lead to domestication, so it was sort of a mutual thing I guess.

[Nakeddragon]

I have to agree, I also hate to see animals enclosed - remembering that 'pets' often extends to other animals such as birds - and I certainly agree that society needs to stop breeding domesticated animals...

 

I would prefer to see animals roaming freely, but we also have to be careful about allowing domesticated animals to roam freely. While it has been mentioned that they are not used to living in these situations there is also the effect they may have on the natural environment. Cats, more than just risking being run over, are prone to going wild and feral. In Australia feral cats are one of the largest reasons, apart from humans, that our native wildlife is greatly reduced in numbers and often extinct.

 

I used to spend my Saturday mornings volunteering at a local Native Fauna Rehabilitation centre and a large portion of birds bought in were those caught by the pet cat in the backyard.

[violet13]

Hero, when I was reading your message, I start thinking about the article I posted on other Animal Rights forum.

Here is very impressive writting!

Yes, animal are not happy in captive and spending boring miserable life.

 

<<<

" 'Pet' - A living being snatched from family/habitat/freedom, becoming ANYONE'S property: (SLAVERY)! Bizarre crossbreeding causing many illnesses/deformities disregarding physical/mental suffering, for easy/cheap (or expensive) sale/ exhibition. WHO IF NOT A SLAVE is bred, bought, sold, owned/ used, held captive, mutilating their paws, ears, tails, other, for convenience, looks, pulled by a leash (jerking from the throat as obedience schools teach!!!???) A plaything made to pay for humans' frustrations/ inadequacies/'needs'. Given as babies to children who torment/ crush them to death. Used as weapons to guard houses lonely/ outside/who may get shot/poisoned. Forced to ridiculous human ways/fed cheapest and/or wrong food...when owner remembers/ feels like. If dogs, ordered to sit/ stand/sleep/walk/ run...defecate on command!!! Most humans are out a lot and many have only one solitary creature who must endure loneliness/ depression/ boredom so that humans can enjoy a 'living thing' when they come home, who may be left alone for long terms on dry food/stale water or in a kennel where the pet may come out sick in body/spirit. If ill/old/ injured/no longer keeps 'etiquette', may be abandoned or 'free to a good home' to avoid bother/big vet's bills just when more loving/ understanding is most needed (after serving all h/her life!). Carnivorous pets converted to veges: confused dreamers of lions/ lambs sleeping together, so they impose their dreams on captive carnivorous slaves! IT'S HUMANS WE MUST CONVERT!!! How absolutely dreadful/obscene, for a being's entire physical/ spiritual life to be forced to such total dependency on anyone who'll buy/catch h/her, and that only a handful of humans give their pets, at least, a life as close to their natural lives as possible!!! Now exotic/wild baby animals are marketed for 'pets' thru the infamous pet stores/black market! When they grow big/revive their original instincts, they're subjected to 'convenience' surgery and/or restricting devices... or quickly abandoned or sold!!! A pet by any other name is still a used domestic being, and what's called a human who owns and uses a being??? Owning pets promotes 100s of profitable businesses that invent pet 'necessities' many times detrimental to them. The sacrificial work kind rescuers do gives pet abandoners the excuse: 'A kind soul will give it a good home!' I do hope animal groups will campaign fiercely to abolish professional breeders/start making public the truth that humans don't deserve to live with animals! Shocking??? Never as much as what 'animal lovers' do to ALL non-human slaves!">>

 

I also agree with compassionategirl knowing many people are living in city and free roaming animals are facing all kinds of danger such as automobiles, diseased, cruel animal abusers and killers including bunchers and dog fighters who are looking for bait for dog fight training, etc.

It is all depend where we live but our companion animals (specially dogs) need our watchful eyes for their protection when everytime we let them step outside.

 

I am glad to find this forum because most people on this forum are very intelligent and compassionate wonderful people.

True animal lovers think and feel same way on many animal related issues.

[Kathryn]

I hate seeing birds, gerbils and hamsters in cages, and fishes swimming around in tanks just used for decoration. And certain animals should not even be considered as companion animals (like hedgehogs, who have very specific hybernation needs that aren't usually met by people.)

 

But dogs and cats have been domesticated for a long time. We can't reverse that. And they can be quite happy indoors (cats, at least!), as long as their needs are met. I have indoor cats. They do go out with me on leashes (for their protection) when the weather is nice (the ones that don't roam too much don't need the leash).

 

I would never let my cats roam free, subject to the dangers of cruel people (too many of those out there--a "building service worker," AKA janitor, in my building was telling me about how he shooots cats when he's out hunting because they kill the animals HE wants to kill--and this dipshit brought up this conversation after seeing a photo of one of my cats, and telling me that usually he doesn't like cats--and onto the killing story--but now has some fancy oxicat or something!) there), dogs and other animals(I once heard a cat being torn to pieces by some roaming dogs when I lived next to a women who fed several cats but didn't have them spayed or neutered) , and illnesses.

 

They get plenty of "window time' and fresh air, and have 3, count 'em three, tall cat towers/trees inside that they like to climb and sleep on. They also like to "stalk" crickets in my large, unfinished basement.

[veggymeggy]

I can see being against domestication, but the problem is that it's already happened, and there are now and overabundance of domesticated animals that either aren't capable of living on their own, or would face grave dangers (as previously mentioned) if they were allowed to.

 

So, what do you do? Take a moral stand against domestication, but there are so many helpless animals out there- They've become dependant on us, and I want to help the ones that I can (by bringing them into my home, as I have). They're safer and healthier. I cringe everytime I see roadkill, but even more so when it's a domestic animal that someone neglected to care for.

[violet13]

compassionategirl, if I were you, I don't feel guilt about keeping Rambo in house because you were kind enough to rescue him when he needed help and if you did not rescue him, I am sure he could not survive.

You are his savior!

Of course if we can provide our companion animals freedom to enjoy outdoor and warm comfortable shelter to sleep, eat, and have companionship with loving responsible guardian is best interest for animals but indoor life of cat is better than free roaming cat who get crashed under the wheels of automobiles or end up being tortured to death by sick minded people.

[Kathryn]

I remember another story. It was about a cat named Kensington.

Damn, I wish I hadn't read this! Now, I feel sick, I can't get this image out of my head, and I want to cry.

 

I just don't understand how human beings can be so cruel. It boggles the mind.

 

Help me not think about this!!

[compassionategirl]

okay here is a happy cat story then.

 

 

My cat Rambo is such a cute lil f%$#er. He loves playing with Riley even if Riley doesnt feel like it. Riley is the big fat garfield cat. Rambo is small compared to Riley.

 

SO anyway, Riley will be crashed out and rambo will come up to him and picture this:

 

He will first lick Riley's ear, and then he will bite down on Riley's ear (never to hurt him) and with Riley's ear still in his mouth, he will then shake his head. Doesnt sound funny when I explain it but its hilarious.

 

and if that doesnt wind Riley up, he will then go for Rileys balls. Of course, when he bites Riley's balls, the Almighty Riley is aroused from his slumber and stands up in a goliath like presence and with a gesture of "okay you little prick, now you really asked for it", which in turn causes Rambo to bolt in the hopes of being chased by the Almighty Riley . Of course, Riley doesnt go after him - he resumes his slumber and says in cat language "sucker".

 

they are best friends and would never hurt each other though, but do love the occasional wind up.

Edited January 3, 2006 by compassionategirl

[compassionategirl]

I remember another story. It was about a cat named Kensington.

Damn, I wish I hadn't read this! Now, I feel sick, I can't get this image out of my head, and I want to cry.

 

 

ya for months I could not stop thinking about kensington. I dreamt about him for weeks. he is obviously still on my mind.

 

And those pricks (what an understatement) that did this to him merely got a slap on the wrist. If I told you the rest of the story you would be further outraged.

 

Guess what their excuse/defense was? They said they were vegetarians, trying to make a point to the world that animals are routinely treated like this for the sake of meat.

 

The nerve to use a good cause like animal rights to justify the most vicious cruelty on an animal that was just minding his own business. What a bunch of bull s^%&t!!! As if an ethical vegan or vegetarian that was concerned about the plight of food animals could take a helpess cat and carve out its eyeballs with that thing that the dentist scapes your teeth with, among the other cruel sadistic, barbaric torture that these sick f%$ks inflicted on kensington, until he was lucky enough to actually die (although a whole 20 minutes into this torture).

 

See when it comes to child, elderly person or animal cruelty, I am all for "an eye for an eye."

 

 

damn now I am depressed again.

[madcat]

I don’t really think domestication is a bad thing. Didn’t we already have a discussion about pets and everyone said having animals in their lives was a good thing? In my mind domestication does not mean any animal that lives in captivity, but rather an animal who is genetically different then its wild descendents. Meaning a dog is a domesticated animal because it is not a naturally occurring species. Wolfs however are wild, even if one was raised by people it would still be a wild animal. Cats, dogs, and all farm animals are domesticated. Most of them are not even adapted to live in the wild.

[compassionategirl]

I don’t really think domestication is a bad thing. Didn’t we already have a discussion about pets and everyone said having animals in their lives was a good thing?

 

Sure, good for us. Anything beyond that is at least open to debate. Do we love animals, or do we simply love how animals make us feel? Subtle but important difference. If you take a human-centred view of it, sure domestication was great.

 

the domestication and continued imprisonment/slavery whatever you want to call it, of animals is not consistent with animal rights, at least not according to the ar community at large.

 

For an insightful and thought provoking discussion on these issues, please read these two threads, where many different views are presented. It might raise issues that you hadnt considered before (that was certainly the case with me). Remember that being vegan is thinking outside of the human-centred box anyway, so try to keep an open mind when deciding where you stand on the issue. When I first got into all this, some of these views seemed strange, uncomfortable and extreme to me. But, that was because I was still so accustomed to my human centred view:

 

http://www.veganfitness.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3537&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

 

http://www.veganfitness.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=444&start=0

[Kathryn]

As if an ethical vegan or vegetarian that was concerned about the plight of food animals could take a helpess cat and carve out its eyeballs with that thing that the dentist scapes your teeth with, among the other cruel sadistic, barbaric torture that these sick f%$ks inflicted on kensington, until he was lucky enough to actually die (although a whole 20 minutes into this torture).

 

damn now I am depressed again.

 

I am again depressed and sickened.

 

In fact, I now dread reading any of your posts because I don't need or want too hear about this any more, and I dread reading something similar. In fact, since this thread, when I see your avatar, I get that sick, adrenalin-rushed feeling in my stomach, because this whole story comes back to me again, and my brain is associating you with it.

 

Maybe you could put a "Warning: graphic description" disclaimer on posts like these?

 

Strange, though, how some people could feel nothing whenn reading this? (Goes back to that whole "empathy vs. no empathy" discussion).

[neil]

So, what do you do? Take a moral stand against domestication, but there are so many helpless animals out there- They've become dependant on us, and I want to help the ones that I can

i agree.

 

on a tangent... what about domestication of humans? are you willing to give up being domesticated?

[madcat]

Good point! Humans have to follow the rules of other people, dose that make us slaves?

To coexist we need to set boundaries. The same is true for the animals that live with us. As children our parents set our rules, and even if we don’t like them they are in our best interests. Dose that make them wrong? Are kid slaves?

[veggymeggy]

So, what do you do? Take a moral stand against domestication, but there are so many helpless animals out there- They've become dependant on us, and I want to help the ones that I can

i agree.

 

on a tangent... what about domestication of humans? are you willing to give up being domesticated?

 

I'm about as undomesticated as they come.....just ask any guy I've ever dated

(Aside from the fact that I keep a super clean house that is. I'm a bit anal that way )

[compassionategirl]

In fact, since this thread, when I see your avatar, I get that sick, adrenalin-rushed feeling in my stomach, because this whole story comes back to me again, and my brain is associating you with it.

 

Maybe you could put a "Warning: graphic description" disclaimer on posts like these?

 

Strange, though, how some people could feel nothing whenn reading this? (Goes back to that whole "empathy vs. no empathy" discussion).

 

sorry to have depressed you. No more details on Kensington's story - though I dont think we should forget him. I think there is a picture of him up at the local Humane Society. It was one of the worst cases of animal cruelty this city has seen in a long time.

 

Ya, I wonder too how some people could feel absolutely nothing when confronted with details of animal torture, LET ALONE actually viewing footage (like fur farms). How can that possibly not affect them? You'd have to be made of stone, with ice water in your veins to not be at least 'disturbed' or 'bothered.' But for most people, hopefully 'outraged and sickened' would more like it though.

 

Animal rights is by far one of the most difficult, stressful and noble causes out there, and no wonder so many ar people simply burn out and end up having to take a break for a while - sometimes a long while, sometimes permanently. You can easily turn very bitter, angry and misanthropic if you allow yourself to be consumed. Sometimes I feel dangerously close to being there already.

 

Then I read about a new comer to veganism and there is a light of hope again in all that darkness.

[compassionategirl]

So, what do you do? Take a moral stand against domestication, but there are so many helpless animals out there- They've become dependant on us, and I want to help the ones that I can

i agree.

 

 

I agree as well.

 

take a moral stand against domestication, take care of the animals that are already here, but...in my opinion (like some others expressed about this), stop breeding more animals, from 'food' animals all the way to the commercial breeding of pets (which would be consistent with 'taking a moral stand against domestication').

 

Sadly, there aint NO WAY that any of us will get to see that glorious day of animal liberation in our lifetimes though, and probably not for generations and generations to come...if ever.