Mistranslation of Bible

[compassionategirl]

***sighs****

 

if I am not spending time on a VEGAN board defending the ethical reasons for being vegan, I am spending it defending the health merits for being vegan (not "mostly vegan" with a lil meat once in while since it cant hurt your health).

 

Frustrated, tired and sad doesnt even begin to describe how I am feeling right now.

 

i will address the substance of both your arguments at a later date. I am feeling rather fed up at the moment from some other threads debating the health merits of veganism with vegans.

[artystik]

Ok, that's cool .. But trying to say that there are NO hazards to one's health by becoming a vegan without supplements is a little crazy. I had a friend of a friend who became a vegan and she had to go to the hospital, she became lethargic and her thought processes weren't as accurate as before. Then she ate animal again and was fine. These defiencies aren't acccidental, it's because animal is an abundant source of nutrients the body needs to survive. Say, if a bodybuilder goes vegan tommorrow without doing his homework, he has a large chance of becoming deficient in a nutrient or many more... Also, saying meat has no nutritional benefits is also insane. This isn't about being ethical in this conversation...it's about saying if we are omnivores or herbivores, whcih you are saying we are herbivores.. If you were stranded in the woods starving to death and there was an animal, would you eat it or try to ambigously mix and match plants so you could meet the nutrient requirements your body needs and take a chance of having a nutrient deficiency?

[sinisterkungfu]

As much as some people would like to believe otherwise, veganism is *not* by any means, the perfect diet. If our distant anscestors hadn't started eating meat, we would be nowhere near as physically, and most especially mentally developed as we are now. The commonly accepted theory in anthropological circles says that eating meat was the primary trigger for our brains to grow from that of monkeys to that of homo sapiens.

As far as the omnivore/carnivore/herbivore deal goes, yes our physiology more closely resembles that of herbivorous animals, however I don't see how there could be the slightest bit of doubt in anyone's mind that the human race is absolutely omnivorous. We have a remarkable versatile digestive system. Just look at all the crap people eat on a regular basis these days, and manage to survive. You'd have to be pretty delusionally wrapped up in your own propaganda to believe that's not the case.

[artystik]

agreed

[compassionategirl]

SKF, I dont recall ever using the word "perfect", but I would say that veganism is the healthier diet compared to an omni one.

 

Let me ask you this, I recall reading somewhere, maybe veganfitness, that you were not an ethical vegan. So if you arent vegan for ethical reasons, then I assume you are vegan for health reasons. if this assumption is correct (which I do not know for sure that it is), then you obviously must think that veganism is better for your health than a non-vegan diet.

 

So what is the deal with you anyway. Why are you vegan and not omni? Dont mean to put you on the spot but I really dont get you, so it is a sincere question.

[sinisterkungfu]

SKF, I dont recall ever using the word "perfect", but I would say that veganism is the better diet compared to an omni one.

 

Let me ask you this, I recall reading somewhere, maybe veganfitness, that you were not an ethical vegan. So if you arent vegan for ethical reasons, then I assume you are vegan for health reasons. if this assumption is correct (which I do not know for sure that it is), then you obviously must think that veganism is better for you health than a non-vegan diet.

 

So what is the deal with you anyway. Why are you vegan and not omni? Dont mean to put you on the spot but I really dont get you, so it is a sincere question.

 

 

I am an enigma.

 

In all seriousness, I became a vegetarian like 15 years ago pretty much because my girlfriend, whom I was living with at the time, was one. That lasted like 8 or 9 years. I went back omni for a couple years (minus any form of red meat, which I have never been fond of anyway). Went veg again a few years ago and decided I may as well give veganism a try, because my diet up until that point pretty much sucked. I didn't research very well the first time around, so I mostly ended up living off of pasta, pizza and junk food. Ended up feeling like crap. A diet made up predominantly of fast food will do that to you apparently. So I joined a gym, started on the veganism thing and while I did it mainly for weight management/energy, I do supplement, and I don't think I'd be doing nearly as well without it, which tells me that this is by no means a perfect diet. I haven't lost any weight, and in fact I've gained a few lbs., but that can be attributed to the weight training, since it appears to be mostly muscle.

 

That's the main reason, and while I don't feel comfortable or good about eating animals personally, I'm not one to try to dictate what others should do, which is why I say I'm not exactly an ethical vegan. I'm not out to convert anyone else, and frankly I couldn't really care less what other people eat. I don't have a problem with people who eat humanely treated animals or use animal products.

[Jay]

As much as some people would like to believe otherwise, veganism is *not* by any means, the perfect diet. If our distant anscestors hadn't started eating meat, we would be nowhere near as physically, and most especially mentally developed as we are now. The commonly accepted theory in anthropological circles says that eating meat was the primary trigger for our brains to grow from that of monkeys to that of homo sapiens.

No, this theory is not "commonly accepted". It is a plausible theory. But so are others. Anthropologists don't really have a clue why we evolved and the majority are not going to pretend otherwise.

 

Going from herbivores to killing other animals does usually entail the need for more intelligence. There may have been natural selection occurring in humans when they began eating meat. But then, eating meat hasn't really done all that much for other animals so the argument isn't really anything great.

 

It could have been the ability to stand which then gave intelligence more value. At some point we started farming, this probably selected for intelligence quite a bit.

 

Of course whatever caused us to evolve has nothing to do with what we should eat today. Unless you plan on crusading for an intelligence enhancing high meat diet, then freezing yourself in a time capsule for a million years.

 

And of course whatever humans ate 10,000 years ago does not constitute the "perfect" diet as the life expectancy then was probably less than 30. As long as they survived long enough to reproduce and get a few children to above 10, it probably didn't matter what they ate.

[sinisterkungfu]

As much as some people would like to believe otherwise, veganism is *not* by any means, the perfect diet. If our distant anscestors hadn't started eating meat, we would be nowhere near as physically, and most especially mentally developed as we are now. The commonly accepted theory in anthropological circles says that eating meat was the primary trigger for our brains to grow from that of monkeys to that of homo sapiens.

No, this theory is not "commonly accepted". It is a plausible theory. But so are others. Anthropologists don't really have a clue why we evolved and the majority are not going to pretend otherwise.

 

Going from herbivores to killing other animals does usually entail the need for more intelligence. There may have been natural selection occurring in humans when they began eating meat. But then, eating meat hasn't really done all that much for other animals so the argument isn't really anything great.

 

It could have been the ability to stand which then gave intelligence more value. At some point we started farming, this probably selected for intelligence quite a bit.

 

Of course whatever caused us to evolve has nothing to do with what we should eat today. Unless you plan on crusading for an intelligence enhancing high meat diet, then freezing yourself in a time capsule for a million years.

 

And of course whatever humans ate 10,000 years ago does not constitute the "perfect" diet as the life expectancy then was probably less than 30. As long as they survived long enough to reproduce and get a few children to above 10, it probably didn't matter what they ate.

 

It is commonly accepted among most mainstream anthropologists. Every anthropology class I've taken has mentioned it, the books for those classes have mentioned it. I know there are other theories which are just as feasible, but that is the predominant one.

Agriculture isn't really an argument for developing intelligence since that occurred long after we had evolved from little monkey-people.

Nor am I saying that it was by any means a perfect diet, I'm just saying that there's a very high possibility that it played a key role in our evolution.

[Crash]

It is commonly accepted among most mainstream anthropologists. Every anthropology class I've taken has mentioned it, the books for those classes have mentioned it. I know there are other theories which are just as feasible, but that is the predominant one.

Agriculture isn't really an argument for developing intelligence since that occurred long after we had evolved from little monkey-people.

Nor am I saying that it was by any means a perfect diet, I'm just saying that there's a very high possibility that it played a key role in our evolution.

The possibility that eating meat made humans more intelligent is as plausible as the possibility that drinking the blood of your enemies gave you their powers and strength. Also, we need carbohydrates in order to think clearly, so wouldn't that indicate that carbs played a bigger role in our thinking capacity (ie intelligence) ?

[sinisterkungfu]

It is commonly accepted among most mainstream anthropologists. Every anthropology class I've taken has mentioned it, the books for those classes have mentioned it. I know there are other theories which are just as feasible, but that is the predominant one.

Agriculture isn't really an argument for developing intelligence since that occurred long after we had evolved from little monkey-people.

Nor am I saying that it was by any means a perfect diet, I'm just saying that there's a very high possibility that it played a key role in our evolution.

The possibility that eating meat made humans more intelligent is as plausible as the possibility that drinking the blood of your enemies gave you their powers and strength. Also, we need carbohydrates in order to think clearly, so wouldn't that indicate that carbs played a bigger role in our thinking capacity (ie intelligence) ?

 

Not really, no. Your analogy doesn't really make sense.

Over time our primitive monkey-like ancestors moved from a diet made up of vegetable matter to scavenging remains off of animals that had been killed. The increased intake of fats and protein triggered the change. I'm not saying it was solely responsible, but up until that point there was probably not alot of protein in their diets, aside from insects and very little fat.

 

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/02/0218_050218_human_diet.html

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn4122

[CrispyQ]

Jay said:

...whatever caused us to evolve has nothing to do with what we should eat today.

 

...And of course whatever humans ate 10,000 years ago does not constitute the "perfect" diet as the life expectancy then was probably less than 30. As long as they survived long enough to reproduce and get a few children to above 10, it probably didn't matter what they ate.

 

I agree with Jay. It doesn't matter what we ate in the past & if it affected our evolution, what matters is the here & now. The way we regard & treat our fellow non-human companions on this planet is a stain on our humanity, one that I believe affects us at a fundamental level.

 

"Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages." — Thomas A. Edison

 

 

I tell people I'm veg cuz eating low on the food chain is a healthier way to live -- spiritually, environmentally & physically.

 

My other fave comment is to tell them I like to eat as far away from my own DNA as possible!

[Crash]

The possibility that eating meat made humans more intelligent is as plausible as the possibility that drinking the blood of your enemies gave you their powers and strength. Also, we need carbohydrates in order to think clearly, so wouldn't that indicate that carbs played a bigger role in our thinking capacity (ie intelligence) ?

 

Not really, no. Your analogy doesn't really make sense.

Over time our primitive monkey-like ancestors moved from a diet made up of vegetable matter to scavenging remains off of animals that had been killed. The increased intake of fats and protein triggered the change. I'm not saying it was solely responsible, but up until that point there was probably not alot of protein in their diets, aside from insects and very little fat.

My analogy was that people were guessing when they believed they could get the traits they wanted by blood, the same as scientists are guessing humans evolved because of eating meat. I mean there are theories, but no one really knows do they ? Also, if meat was needed for evolution, what about this tribe that has been vegan for 5000 years ?

 

Also, the 1st link you posted states:

Competition from other species may be a key element of natural selection that has molded anatomy and behavior, according to Craig B. Stanford, an ecologist at the University of Southern California (USC).

which I believe could have more to do with evolution and intelligence than the meat.

 

Here's a link for an article on the same website as the other link you posted, which states:

Hunting skills may not after all have triggered the tremendous burst of human evolution at the beginning of the ice ages nearly two million years ago. Instead of man the hunter, the driving force behind this evolutionary surge may have been woman the gatherer, with both mother and grandmother playing a vital role.

I know that the last section brings the question of meat in, but imo it really is just a dying gasp from the die hard "meat made us evolve" group.

 

Anyhow, thank you for the links, but it doesn't really matter how we evolved or didn't evolve does it ? It does matter what we do now, so I've got to agree with CrispyQ and Jay (please try not to faint Jay ).

[compassionategirl]

SKF, I dont recall ever using the word "perfect", but I would say that veganism is the better diet compared to an omni one.

 

Let me ask you this, I recall reading somewhere, maybe veganfitness, that you were not an ethical vegan. So if you arent vegan for ethical reasons, then I assume you are vegan for health reasons. if this assumption is correct (which I do not know for sure that it is), then you obviously must think that veganism is better for you health than a non-vegan diet.

 

So what is the deal with you anyway. Why are you vegan and not omni? Dont mean to put you on the spot but I really dont get you, so it is a sincere question.

 

 

I am an enigma.

 

In all seriousness, I became a vegetarian like 15 years ago pretty much because my girlfriend, whom I was living with at the time, was one. That lasted like 8 or 9 years. I went back omni for a couple years (minus any form of red meat, which I have never been fond of anyway). Went veg again a few years ago and decided I may as well give veganism a try, because my diet up until that point pretty much sucked. I didn't research very well the first time around, so I mostly ended up living off of pasta, pizza and junk food. Ended up feeling like crap. A diet made up predominantly of fast food will do that to you apparently. So I joined a gym, started on the veganism thing and while I did it mainly for weight management/energy, I do supplement, and I don't think I'd be doing nearly as well without it, which tells me that this is by no means a perfect diet. I haven't lost any weight, and in fact I've gained a few lbs., but that can be attributed to the weight training, since it appears to be mostly muscle.

 

That's the main reason, and while I don't feel comfortable or good about eating animals personally, I'm not one to try to dictate what others should do, which is why I say I'm not exactly an ethical vegan. I'm not out to convert anyone else, and frankly I couldn't really care less what other people eat. I don't have a problem with people who eat humanely treated animals or use animal products.

 

Thanks for the info SKF. It is interesting to hear your story because you are definitely an enigma

 

As far as the substance of this debate goes, it looks like Crash, Jay and Lezly are doing a superb job in countering your arguments so I will return to flirting with Tarz online. It's much more fun!

 

I will only add in response to one of your comments above that it appears that there ARE people who do not supplement yet still thrive on a vegan diet, notwithstanding the fact that you feel that isnt possible based on your own personal experience.

[CrispyQ]

As far as the substance of this debate goes, it looks like Crash, Jay and Lezly are doing a superb job in countering your arguments so I will return to flirting with Tarz online. It's much more fun!

 

Shameless!!

[violet13]

Meat/dairy/egg lovers are surviving doesn't mean they are healthy.

Japanese people are longest lived people on this planet and their diet is plant based diet.

Sadly, when some Japanese people adapted western style meat based diet, they start suffering from all kinds of sicknesses and diseases.

It is very rare for vegans to suffer from cancer, heart diseases, diabetes, osteoprosis, etc but too many meat/dairy/egg lovers are suffering from these diseases.

In fact, countries where dairy products are abundant, many people are suffering from osteoprosis.

www.notmilk.com

[sinisterkungfu]

Meat/dairy/egg lovers are surviving doesn't mean they are healthy.

Japanese people are longest lived people on this planet and their diet is plant based diet.

Sadly, when some Japanese people adapted western style meat based diet, they start suffering from all kinds of sicknesses and diseases.

It is very rare for vegans to suffer from cancer, heart diseases, diabetes, osteoprosis, etc but too many meat/dairy/egg lovers are suffering from these diseases.

In fact, countries where dairy products are abundant, many people are suffering from osteoprosis.

www.notmilk.com

 

fish aren't plants. The japanese diet is not entirely plant based. The Okinawans are the longest lived people and their diet is mainly fish, rice and seaweed.

[willpeavy]

Sinkungfu is right. Okinawans have highest percentage of centenarians in the world and they eat lots of fish, seaweed, rice, and other plants.

 

For me, the main reason for not eating fish from commercial fishing is environmental, not health.

[mango]

Jza wrote:

people still read the bible?

 

Apparently 50 bibles are sold each minute across the world...I wonder where the money goes...

 

If the author's still alive, shouldn't He get some royalties?

[violet13]

sinisterkungfu and willpeavy, Please do not mixed up Okinawa with Japan because Okinawans and people in main land Japan have different culture.

I am Japanese but not Okinawan.