GoD and DoG

[Fjodo]

How about: Who cares if there is a god? Just have a good time, and try to be nice. That's what He wants you to do, anyway.

[Im Your Man]

I stopped being religious when the Bible said the world has been made in 7 days

If there is a God who ever he or she is or whatever it is I prefer to believe it is in everything, everywhere, in every atom including my body and soul, rather than looking at the sky and hoping some supernatural energy is listening to me. According to the legend Jesus died for all of us and his body and mind is now in each of us (he also asked that we become cannibals ''drink this wine and eat this bread, it is my blood and my flesh''). So in a way god is inside each one of us, not outside, like many like to think. They do all the sins possible and then they ask for mercy...

I prefer spirituality rather than religion. It is more like a way of life rather than being an hypocrite, a sinner and a believer all at the same time.

[VeganEssentials]

My opinion is, believe what you want, so long as it makes you happy and you don't infringe on the right of others to believe what they choose.

 

I have no problem with people who believe in God/Allah/Flying Spaghetti Monster/whatever, and I have no problem with people believing that there is no supreme being. If your decision to believe in something more (or, believe in nothing more) makes you a better person and not worse, then it is good for you to do so and I'm glad for you.

 

But, if you start trying to convince me that you're 100% right about the absolute existence or non-existence of a higher power, I tune it all out. Spending time trying to "prove" the existence of your chosen deity doesn't mean a thing to me, and trying to disprove everyone else's decision to believe (or NOT believe) in something is equally absurd. I can't think of anything more worthless than fighting over one's faith or lack thereof - complete waste of time. Nothing is gained by forcing your beliefs on someone else, and nothing is improved by trying to shatter someone's beliefs just so you can feel superior to them.

 

Let's just live, do good, and spend as little time as possible arguing something that should be one's personal choice and theirs alone. So long as you keep it to yourself and don't insist on shouting your own beliefs from the rooftops to try and tell everyone you're right and they're wrong, it's all good in my book.

[Richard]

Mmm, recently there is a trend in that people think that atheism is arrogant and unreasonable, yet I have never met an atheist who says "Yes I am 100% right that there is no God, and nothing supernatural, and it will never be proven otherwise". What atheists actually think is that right now there is not enough evidence for anything supernatural, and so they don't believe in it, at this moment. If there was to be evidence provided, they would believe. It isn't a stubborn or arrogant view point at all. Some people might say that I am describing agnosticism, but as I said, I've never met anybody who calls themselves an atheist who wouldn't change their mind based on new evidence, so to me they're pretty much the same, at least in how people use the words. Faith, on the other hand, is a more stationary view point by definition, since it is a belief based on a feeling or inclination (or indoctrination) which is pretty much impossible to alter or enlighten, since the belief is not based on logic or evidence, so can't be changed by logical debate or application of normal testing procedures, since they are ignored no matter what.

[jamexitar]

Nothing is gained by forcing your beliefs on someone else, and nothing is improved by trying to shatter someone's beliefs just so you can feel superior to them.

 

Agree with that.But i don't think that the only time where the debate on god comes up, is only at a situation of two (a believer and a non believer) fighting over each other, not having thought that they can forget all about it and live in harmony..It can't be that simple..What i'm trying to say is that subject god nowadays is not just a matter of belief; it affects everyone's lives whether someone wants it or not..god is supposed to be the boss from above, the one ruler of all, but that's given in such a way to the people so that they see the only thing about god is whether to believe or not..Politics is made out of this crap, laws are made with the sake of human belief to the superior power above, and people are ruling the world in the name of god, country and religion...subject god is everywhere around, it has affected anything from a spiritual level to a dress code to a behavior code to the politics and our enslavement to a few on this planet..."god is watching you" "be a good boy for god" "thou shall not steal -> those who steal are punished for not having a shitload of money on their possesion to live" "for a period of time we shall not eat this or that for our precious god" "god bless america" .The whole society is built during the ages affected by religion and we're day by day destroying our lives. And as myself , i just can't skip those who continue to waste their time and mind on such poor things that are made up by some "clever guys" to not let us see the real problems on this planet..And for myself , i don't care about evidence if there is a god or not, i just don't want any human or supernatural alien who walks on the sea on a handstand position while turning my water into wine to get me drunk after givimg me three legs or anyshit else to be the boss and rule my life..

[Vegan Joe]

Nothing is gained by forcing your beliefs on someone else, and nothing is improved by trying to shatter someone's beliefs just so you can feel superior to them.

 

Agree with that.But i don't think that the only time where the debate on god comes up, is only at a situation of two (a believer and a non believer) fighting over each other, not having thought that they can forget all about it and live in harmony..It can't be that simple..What i'm trying to say is that subject god nowadays is not just a matter of belief; it affects everyone's lives whether someone wants it or not..god is supposed to be the boss from above, the one ruler of all, but that's given in such a way to the people so that they see the only thing about god is whether to believe or not..Politics is made out of this crap, laws are made with the sake of human belief to the superior power above, and people are ruling the world in the name of god, country and religion...subject god is everywhere around, it has affected anything from a spiritual level to a dress code to a behavior code to the politics and our enslavement to a few on this planet..."god is watching you" "be a good boy for god" "thou shall not steal -> those who steal are punished for not having a shitload of money on their possesion to live" "for a period of time we shall not eat this or that for our precious god" "god bless america" .The whole society is built during the ages affected by religion and we're day by day destroying our lives. And as myself , i just can't skip those who continue to waste their time and mind on such poor things that are made up by some "clever guys" to not let us see the real problems on this planet..And for myself , i don't care about evidence if there is a god or not, i just don't want any human or supernatural alien who walks on the sea on a handstand position while turning my water into wine to get me drunk after givimg me three legs or anyshit else to be the boss and rule my life..

 

I think your confusing social/civil morals/ethics with religious moral/ethics. I'm sure that before there was ever a concept of God, that if you had killed someone in your tribe you would have been castigated, kicked out or even killed yourself. I have no doubt that tribal laws predate religious law. Now if your talking about religious morals/ethics well those choices are wholey yours, unless you live in northern Pakistan.

[Vegan Joe]

Mmm, recently there is a trend in that people think that atheism is arrogant and unreasonable, yet I have never met an atheist who says "Yes I am 100% right that there is no God, and nothing supernatural, and it will never be proven otherwise". What atheists actually think is that right now there is not enough evidence for anything supernatural, and so they don't believe in it, at this moment. If there was to be evidence provided, they would believe. It isn't a stubborn or arrogant view point at all. Some people might say that I am describing agnosticism, but as I said, I've never met anybody who calls themselves an atheist who wouldn't change their mind based on new evidence, so to me they're pretty much the same, at least in how people use the words. Faith, on the other hand, is a more stationary view point by definition, since it is a belief based on a feeling or inclination (or indoctrination) which is pretty much impossible to alter or enlighten, since the belief is not based on logic or evidence, so can't be changed by logical debate or application of normal testing procedures, since they are ignored no matter what.

I think that trying to narrow down the concept of God, higher power, electron flow. universal flow, etc. etc. according to everyone elses beliefs, is a difficult thing to do, not to mention refute. I also don't thing you give people who are relgious enough due. Faith in most people is not an unshakable thing. People who have beliefs in something are much like anyone and tend to vasilate. Witch no doubt is reflected by the amount of people who say they believe in a God vs those that say they believe in a God and go to a church filled with it's own dogma.

[jamexitar]

I'm sure that before there was ever a concept of God, that if you had killed someone in your tribe you would have been castigated, kicked out or even killed yourself.

 

People are divided in tribes. I guess the search for something supernatural to believe in, has already been in their mind and sure some kind of mind-created superhuman power is already being followed. Punishment from above is more shelf-harming than is to be disregarded from your tribe(talking about the "foolish" primitive people, compared to us). I guess it's the same play with different leading actor, either god or thunder is pretty much made up with the same way of human mind thinking. Now it's evolutionary a smarter, with more foundations to be shaken down, version of the "out there" secrets.

I, in purpose, mix religious and socials written laws or morals because i don't think it is separated the one from the other. Humans have in their nature the "to rule and to be ruled" and the first is fulfilled with the diversion in tribes and the second with the making up of the "god idea".

I believe human ethics/ morals(not laws yet, as i find laws a later addition to society is order to entirely prevent humans from being equal) cannot be diversed into social and religious, because religion is built inside society and preserves it in its poor nowadays' form and also, in reverse,society is being built through religion.

 

Now if your talking about religious morals/ethics well those choices are wholey yours, unless you live in northern Pakistan.

 

I guees you're talking about beliefs.

I'm not talking about personal beliefs, but about ethics and morals(as a strict meaning now), cause belief is the result of human ethics but also belief "protects" ethics(and in extention protects modern society too) from attacks that cannot be repulsed , unless superhuman means are used as a weapon.That's how i guess the story continues..

[Ducati]

The existence of God is not the issue. It is the belief in the existence of God and the path of of religion that is the problem. It is by far the most destructive force on the planet. It is religion and ideology that allows people to justify killing other people or animals without remorse, destroy the planet without thought, and commit heinous crimes because they believe they are higher spiritually than anything or anyone else. I am not an atheist, I am an Anti-theist. I feel that religion is the most horrible thing on the planet.

[Vegan Joe]

The existence of God is not the issue. It is the belief in the existence of God and the path of of religion that is the problem. It is by far the most destructive force on the planet. It is religion and ideology that allows people to justify killing other people or animals without remorse, destroy the planet without thought, and commit heinous crimes because they believe they are higher spiritually than anything or anyone else. I am not an atheist, I am an Anti-theist. I feel that religion is the most horrible thing on the planet.

Veganism is an ideology. Hatred usually stems from a lack of knowledge and understanding.

Which is exactly what we have here. I think you're just an Anti-anything.

PS Jainism is a religion.

Over simplification seems to be your modus operandi.

[Ducati]

The existence of God is not the issue. It is the belief in the existence of God and the path of of religion that is the problem. It is by far the most destructive force on the planet. It is religion and ideology that allows people to justify killing other people or animals without remorse, destroy the planet without thought, and commit heinous crimes because they believe they are higher spiritually than anything or anyone else. I am not an atheist, I am an Anti-theist. I feel that religion is the most horrible thing on the planet.

Veganism is an ideology. Hatred usually stems from a lack of knowledge and understanding.

Which is exactly what we have here. I think you're just an Anti-anything.

PS Jainism is a religion.

Over simplification seems to be your modus operandi.

 

Veganism is not an ideology based on religion. Veganism is based in science, health, compassion, and common sense. Religion is based on speculation, assumptions, hearsay, and manipulation.

 

Fascism, racism, sexism, are all ideologically based and when organized, they become a religion. Any ism when organized becomes a religion. Religion is just the mindless following some fool who thinks he or she has some knowledge about a fictitious being. It is warped and twisted based on those peoples wants in life. You can take the bible and twist it to justify anything you like.

[Vegan Joe]

Veganism is not an ideology based on religion. Veganism is based in science, health, compassion, and common sense. Religion is based on speculation, assumptions, hearsay, and manipulation.

 

Fascism, racism, sexism, are all ideologically based and when organized, they become a religion. Any ism when organized becomes a religion. Religion is just the mindless following some fool who thinks he or she has some knowledge about a fictitious being. It is warped and twisted based on those peoples wants in life. You can take the bible and twist it to justify anything you like.

Veganism???

Yeah, lets all run amuck.

Over simplification seems to be your modus operandi.

[Ducati]

Veganism is not an ideology based on religion. Veganism is based in science, health, compassion, and common sense. Religion is based on speculation, assumptions, hearsay, and manipulation.

 

Fascism, racism, sexism, are all ideologically based and when organized, they become a religion. Any ism when organized becomes a religion. Religion is just the mindless following some fool who thinks he or she has some knowledge about a fictitious being. It is warped and twisted based on those peoples wants in life. You can take the bible and twist it to justify anything you like.

Veganism???

Yeah, lets all run amuck.

Over simplification seems to be your modus operandi.

 

Yes, even veganism. Anyone who has worked in AR can attest to the dogma in the community and the way it destroys progress in the movement. You have the religion of PETA, Human Society, Gary Francione, etc. I see small sects in my local community. People will follow the loudest fool instead of seeking out logic, science, and fact. People want to told what to do and don't want to seek the truth for themselves.

 

Any ideology can be twisted into a religion.

 

Your modus operandi is ad hominem.

[Vegan Joe]

Veganism is not an ideology based on religion. Veganism is based in science, health, compassion, and common sense. Religion is based on speculation, assumptions, hearsay, and manipulation.

 

Fascism, racism, sexism, are all ideologically based and when organized, they become a religion. Any ism when organized becomes a religion. Religion is just the mindless following some fool who thinks he or she has some knowledge about a fictitious being. It is warped and twisted based on those peoples wants in life. You can take the bible and twist it to justify anything you like.

Veganism???

Yeah, lets all run amuck.

Over simplification seems to be your modus operandi.

 

Yes, even veganism. Anyone who has worked in AR can attest to the dogma in the community and the way it destroys progress in the movement. You have the religion of PETA, Human Society, Gary Francione, etc. I see small sects in my local community. People will follow the loudest fool instead of seeking out logic, science, and fact. People want to told what to do and don't want to seek the truth for themselves.

 

Any ideology can be twisted into a religion.

 

Your modus operandi is ad hominem.

 

 

 

 

Have you thought of maybe burying your head in the sand?

[Zack]

Gonna have to agree with ducati's last post here joe.

[Vegan Joe]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_UiZRvkBqTqE/SSAwNhqGpxI/AAAAAAAAAGQ/eo7VcRV-x6w/s1600/is%2Bnothing%2Bsacred.jpg

[VeganEssentials]

The existence of God is not the issue. It is the belief in the existence of God and the path of of religion that is the problem. It is by far the most destructive force on the planet. It is religion and ideology that allows people to justify killing other people or animals without remorse, destroy the planet without thought, and commit heinous crimes because they believe they are higher spiritually than anything or anyone else. I am not an atheist, I am an Anti-theist. I feel that religion is the most horrible thing on the planet.

 

I don't completely agree in that I believe people CAN be religious and still be wise, open-minded people in many ways, and that not all are simply wanting to be told what to do and will blindly follow what their chosen religion instructs.

 

It's a bit blanketing, much how like the average person thinks that if you support AR, you're burning down laboratories and are throwing red paint on people. While quite a few choose that path, it isn't the case for everyone, and I don't particularly wish to be painted with that same brush as some religious people do in being pigeonholed that way as well.

 

My father is strong in his faith (something we don't necesssarily share, he's a devout Catholic and I kicked and screamed enough to never go to church after age 9 ), but he is never afraid to question the church on things he doesn't personally agree with, no matter how hard the church may press an issue. He recognizes that the church may have interpretations that aren't necessarily correct, and he agrees with much of it, but not all of it. I compare it in that sense to having a favorite candidate in an election - I don't see how anyone could possibly feel that ANYONE speaks for them 100%, and it's sacrificing your own identity to blindly follow, so if you can maintain your individualism and the ability to question, it isn't necessarily that harmful. He doesn't agree with all their values and was never seeking to simply find a group to lead him, rather, he felt that religion gave his life more meaning to get through rough times when he was younger, and he never gave up on it. We've had our debates, and just as I've tried to prove him wrong, I can't. Just as he's tried to prove his faith to me as if it were certain for everything he believed, he can't do it. Does that make either of us right or wrong? Not really. When I brought up the bad things the Catholic Church has done over the centuries, he comes back at me with "And what did I have to do with any of that? I don't agree with all of it either, and I didn't do any of it myself." He came back at me saying, "Do you agree with everything done in the name of animal rights?", and it was the same thing, flipped back at me. It's a no-win situation if you believe in ANYTHING and want to argue it for winners' position, so that's why I hold the stance that people should be gauged on what they do and support vs. lumping everyone together that shares a common thought. There are more than a few flippin' insane, nutjob folk who do things in the name of their chosen deity or religion because they believe it's the right path, there are people who have done some really stupid things in the name of AR, following a misanthropic path with regard only for animals at the expense of humans because of their interpretation and own personal dogma.

 

Anyhoo, that's my take on it. I'd rather take someone by their merits on an individual basis after knowing something about them rather than assume that they blindly support everything their religion instructs them to do. You might just be surprised how many people out there have faith but still have their wits to question things along the way and can easily identify right from wrong.

[Ducati]

The existence of God is not the issue. It is the belief in the existence of God and the path of of religion that is the problem. It is by far the most destructive force on the planet. It is religion and ideology that allows people to justify killing other people or animals without remorse, destroy the planet without thought, and commit heinous crimes because they believe they are higher spiritually than anything or anyone else. I am not an atheist, I am an Anti-theist. I feel that religion is the most horrible thing on the planet.

 

I don't completely agree in that I believe people CAN be religious and still be wise, open-minded people in many ways, and that not all are simply wanting to be told what to do and will blindly follow what their chosen religion instructs.

 

It's a bit blanketing, much how like the average person thinks that if you support AR, you're burning down laboratories and are throwing red paint on people. While quite a few choose that path, it isn't the case for everyone, and I don't particularly wish to be painted with that same brush as some religious people do in being pigeonholed that way as well.

 

My father is strong in his faith (something we don't necesssarily share, he's a devout Catholic and I kicked and screamed enough to never go to church after age 9 ), but he is never afraid to question the church on things he doesn't personally agree with, no matter how hard the church may press an issue. He recognizes that the church may have interpretations that aren't necessarily correct, and he agrees with much of it, but not all of it. I compare it in that sense to having a favorite candidate in an election - I don't see how anyone could possibly feel that ANYONE speaks for them 100%, and it's sacrificing your own identity to blindly follow, so if you can maintain your individualism and the ability to question, it isn't necessarily that harmful. He doesn't agree with all their values and was never seeking to simply find a group to lead him, rather, he felt that religion gave his life more meaning to get through rough times when he was younger, and he never gave up on it. We've had our debates, and just as I've tried to prove him wrong, I can't. Just as he's tried to prove his faith to me as if it were certain for everything he believed, he can't do it. Does that make either of us right or wrong? Not really. When I brought up the bad things the Catholic Church has done over the centuries, he comes back at me with "And what did I have to do with any of that? I don't agree with all of it either, and I didn't do any of it myself." He came back at me saying, "Do you agree with everything done in the name of animal rights?", and it was the same thing, flipped back at me. It's a no-win situation if you believe in ANYTHING and want to argue it for winners' position, so that's why I hold the stance that people should be gauged on what they do and support vs. lumping everyone together that shares a common thought. There are more than a few flippin' insane, nutjob folk who do things in the name of their chosen deity or religion because they believe it's the right path, there are people who have done some really stupid things in the name of AR, following a misanthropic path with regard only for animals at the expense of humans because of their interpretation and own personal dogma.

 

Anyhoo, that's my take on it. I'd rather take someone by their merits on an individual basis after knowing something about them rather than assume that they blindly support everything their religion instructs them to do. You might just be surprised how many people out there have faith but still have their wits to question things along the way and can easily identify right from wrong.

 

Ryan,

 

I understand what you are saying, however, merely having faith IS blindly following a religion. "Faith is the confident belief or trust in the truth or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing." When you get on an airplane, in a cab, or even bungee jump, the faith you have in those people is very much more understandable than the blind faith in a religion. There is simply no evidence that any religion is true, the right religion, or a path to heaven, etc.

 

The fact that your father doesn't believe everything his religion tells him is evident of the irony of religion. I don't think anyone believes everything their religion tells them. That is why there are so many religions. They keep splitting based upon what that particular group has decided to believe.

 

People will join religions that agree with their core values so they can justify how they live their lives. If someone hates a particular race, they will seek a religion that agrees with them. They want someone to tell them they can continue living the way they want, and still go to heaven.

[Vegan Joe]

Ryan,

 

I understand what you are saying, however, merely having faith IS blindly following a religion. "Faith is the confident belief or trust in the truth or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing." When you get on an airplane, in a cab, or even bungee jump, the faith you have in those people is very much more understandable than the blind faith in a religion. There is simply no evidence that any religion is true, the right religion, or a path to heaven, etc.

 

The fact that your father doesn't believe everything his religion tells him is evident of the irony of religion. I don't think anyone believes everything their religion tells them. That is why there are so many religions. They keep splitting based upon what that particular group has decided to believe.

 

People will join religions that agree with their core values so they can justify how they live their lives. If someone hates a particular race, they will seek a religion that agrees with them. They want someone to tell them they can continue living the way they want, and still go to heaven.

Your argument started with everyone following like sheep off a cliff, now it moves to people having freedom of choice within their respective religions. Then you finish with the line in red which is what an athiest thinks. Without a sense that there is something more powerful than oneself, be it energy, the collective conciousness of the universe or what ever. There sure would be alot more egotistical maniacs running around adhering to the morals of their own choosing. Which is what your erroneous statement highlighted in red says.

What I find disturbing is your inability to see the good that has come to the lives of many individuals who are given hope, and who have turned there lives arouind from one of misery to one filled with love and joy for their fellow man. I don't think you care to look at the personal benifit to millions of people for having hope in something that can't be proven, much like a theorem. I think you try to use an oversimplication of religious institutions within the context of historical barbarism, that was true with or without the flag of religion.

Seems as if your choice is nothing more than indiviual warriors all with their own rule of law.

[Ducati]

Yes, people want to be told what to do with in their own comfort zone. If what they want to be told is to kill people, sacrifice life and limb for country, god and country, etc. etc., they join the military. They have chosen who they want to lead their life. This is the problem of all religions. The choice of following usually leads to an inability to grow, become enlightened, find truth, discover spirituality, or whatever you desire to call the originally intended goal of that religion. What one turns to religion to find, ironically, is obscured by the religion itself.

 

Religion is not the source hope, love or joy. Those are intrinsic with in us all. You are obscuring the lines between organized religion and spirituality. They are not related in anyway.

[Vegan Joe]

Everything you mentioned is an over simplification, or blanket statements.

Yes, people want to be told what to do with in their own comfort zone.

Not quite sure what you are saying. usually in one's comfort zone one is dioing what one is choosing to do.

 

If what they want to be told is to kill people, sacrifice life and limb for country, god and country, etc. etc., they join the military. They have chosen who they want to lead their life.

People join the military for lots of reasons. Few for the reason to be told to kill people. Most peoples have higher ideals than just killing people.

This is the problem of all religions. The choice of following usually leads to an inability to grow, become enlightened, find truth, discover spirituality, or whatever you desire to call the originally intended goal of that religion.

I call Bullshit on this statement.

 

What one turns to religion to find, ironically, is obscured by the religion itself.

I call Bullshit on this statement. The irony is your belief that you know anything about peoples personal journey in faith.

 

Religion is not the source hope, love or joy. Those are intrinsic with in us all.

That is such a laughable statement. This show you know little of human frailty.

 

You are obscuring the lines between organized religion and spirituality. They are not related in anyway.

You would like to believe that but, you aint going to find any spirituality in your church of the Anti-theist.