Good news and bad news. :(

[Cellar Yeti]

I got my lab results back from my new gastroenterologist. My B12 levels are down. He suspects when they re-sectioned part of my small intestine back in 2001 at the ileum it compromised my ability to absorb B12 as efficiently. Something about the B12 binding with the R protein and being absorbed into the ileum.

 

I thought it important to tell him about my quest for veganism and he suggested I hold off and still consume at least dairy and/or eggs. Because the drop in B12 levels has taken this long to present itself he thinks I am getting some B12 from eggs, milk, and meat but not the full amount possible and wants to see if supplementing my diet with nutritional yeast will help raise my B12 levels. He wants to see if I digest it more efficiently from yeast.

 

Good news? Apparently, he is a lacto/ovo vegetarian but only drinks goats milk and isn't a complete jerk. He's supportive but cautious.

 

I guess I need to do what I need to do to stay healthy.

[Northstar]

I am not saying this just because of my bias, but why cant you just take a supplement? Cheap and potent.

[Cellar Yeti]

I am not saying this just because of my bias, but why cant you just take a supplement? Cheap and potent.

 

He wants to figure out why exactly I have a deficiency instead of just medicating me. I like him for that. He's hoping to find a natural solution.

[Ducati]

I am not saying this just because of my bias, but why cant you just take a supplement? Cheap and potent.

 

He wants to figure out why exactly I have a deficiency instead of just medicating me. I like him for that. He's hoping to find a natural solution.

 

Supplements are not medication. And dairy and eggs are not natural. Humans are the only species to consume milk after infancy, as well as milk of another species. Dairy and Eggs are loaded with cholesterol that has been shown to not be nice to us.

 

I would like to recommend a book called "The China Study". After you read this, you might consider dairy and eggs to be poison for your body. I would prefer to take a supplement myself.

[Cellar Yeti]

I am not saying this just because of my bias, but why cant you just take a supplement? Cheap and potent.

 

He wants to figure out why exactly I have a deficiency instead of just medicating me. I like him for that. He's hoping to find a natural solution.

 

Supplements are not medication. And dairy and eggs are not natural. Humans are the only species to consume milk after infancy, as well as milk of another species. Dairy and Eggs are loaded with cholesterol that has been shown to not be nice to us.

 

I would like to recommend a book called "The China Study". After you read this, you might consider dairy and eggs to be poison for your body. I would prefer to take a supplement myself.

 

I'd like to figure out why I have a B12 deficiency and what the underlying problem is instead of just treating it with a supplement that might or might not work in my particular instance, in which case I won't know until I get screwed ^_^;

[Ducati]

I think you need to seek out the opinion of a doctor who specializes in vegan diets.

[Fallen_Horse]

Also vegan milks have more B12 than any dairy products do. Just sayin

[Cellar Yeti]

I don't like packaged/enriched products. I am suspicious of everything that is processed/pre-packaged or modified.

 

I have also tried almond milk and I detest it. I found some liquid b-12 complex and some liquid calcium so I'm going to make my own rice milk. I know it seems odd I'd rather make it myself and enrich it myself. But I don't know the quality of the enrichment some corporation is using. It's cheaper this way, and I can control the quality of the final product.

 

I will be investing in a food processor/blender and a suitable 1 gallon glass jug to contain my milk, I also need some products like some mason jars for sprouting, and a 3 or 5 gallon glass jug for spring water so I'll wait until I have the money for everything.

 

I am trying to supplement as little as possible. My justification is my screwed up guts. I'd eat a lb of spinach for my calcium if my innards could handle it, I just can't though.

[Cold Fission]

If you cant absorb it you can get b12 injections at the doctors that goes straight to your blood.

 

People with that condition do fine with b12 injections.

[Ducati]

I don't like packaged/enriched products. I am suspicious of everything that is processed/pre-packaged or modified.

 

I don't understand your argument. Dairy is highly processed. First off, the pasteurization kills off all the enzymes which will make digestion much much difficult. This means that the vitamins won't get absorbed into the blood stream. ie B12.

 

Synthetic Vitamin D is added because the natural Vitamin D that is found mostly in the fat. Synthetic Vitamin D might be toxic to certain organs.

 

Bovine Growth Hormone is added to increase milk production. Anti-biotics are pumped into cows to keep them healthy in such horrid conditions. Phosphates prevent you from absorbing calcium. Protein causes type I diabetes and leaches calcium from your bones. Pesticides and other chemicals in the water and food cows eat ends up in their milk. Blood and puss from the sores around their udders end up in the milk as well.

 

Eggs are reproductive matter and full of hormones and anti-biotics to protect the growing embryo. You are also getting pesticides and other chemicals the chicken has consumed in those horrific conditions.

 

You will get nothing "Natural" from dairy or eggs. If you want natural B12, you need to live in nature without plumbing and closer to your own feces or the feces of other animals. Otherwise, take a supplement from vegan sources.

 

PCRM.org is a good place for information.

[chrisjs]

Good luck with your medical issues and your journey to being vegan.

 

For what it's worth, vegans need to take a B12 supplement anyway since we don't normally eat dirt anymore. If you were vegan for a while and were not taking a supplement (or foods that are already supplemented with it) your B12 levels would be low as well.

 

I'm not a doctor, but I would think that high amounts of B12 supplementation and/or a B12 shot would be better in this case, I consider getting your levels back up immediately more important that figuring out why. Oral B12 is mostly absorbed in the mouth, not in the gut.

[Cellar Yeti]

Well, for the record I was drinking raw milk. Drinking milk and eating eggs especially has always freaked me out anyway. But, this isn't a conversation about what's natural because nothing about my plumbing is natural. This is a topic about the concern for my health. Plain and simple, I'm looking out for number one. You don't need to tell me that drinking milk and eating another animals ovarian pootings is unnatural, I dig that. What I am trying to do is come to reasonable outcome that doesn't involve me dying from a B12 deficiency, by doing my own research, taking the advice of a trained medical professional, and coming to my own conclusion.

 

I am fairly certain I will do better with liquid B12 complex as I have always absorbed liquids better when supplementing. I'm going to call my doctor and ask him if we can do this, and come back in 6 months to check my B12 levels. I'm going to use nutritional yeast as well in my recipes, as well as adding spirulina to my post workout feeding.

[Richard]

Milk and eggs aren't really easy for your digestive system to handle anyway, as far as I know. Milk especially. I really don't see how they could be recommended for somebody who has trouble with their digestive system, milk is bad enough for people with normally functioning intestines.

[Cellar Yeti]

I never had trouble with milk or meat. I have seen this argument used tons of times when I tell people about my Crohn's/Ulcerative Colitis, it's a huge misconception and a poorly constructed argument. "Kyle, you shouldn't be eating meat or dairy". The fact of the matter is, depending on where the inflammation is in the small intestine determines the foods you have trouble eating. For instance, the primary source of inflammation in my small intestine gives me difficulty with pears, apples, bananas, raisins, grapes etc. I suspect it's the fructose in them because fruit sugar and food sugar has always killed me. Meat and dairy has always been my best bet to stave off weight loss. And while I agree I have come to realize drinking milk is unnatural, lots of ethnic backgrounds can tolerate milk just fine despite the obvious slew of health complications associated with it later in life.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble, but a vegan diet would wreck my innards if it's not properly conceived. I don't understand why you guys are constructing arguments against me. It's starting to make me doubt this forum. It's like you only read certain parts of my posts. I'm not looking for a way to sheist my way out of a totally vegan diet. In fact, I am looking for solutions to work around my medical condition to enable a vegan diet. But I am not willing to go and change what has worked for me for the past 22 years at the cost of my health which I have fought tooth and nail to keep up.

 

I've been experimenting with various vegan foods for the past few days and combined with the information I already know about my ability to handle certain veggies and fruits I am re-evaluating my diet. Chickpeas in non-hummus cause my guts discomfort, but I seem to handle lentil soups and stews well as well as soft beans like pintos, black beans, and kidney beans very well. I handle berries and low GI tropical fruits very well too. Nuts and seeds are totally out of the question unless they've been reduced to powder or smooth nut/seed butters. I also have to be careful with string veggies like lettuce, spinach, and swiss chard.

 

I've already removed meat totally as well as eggs. I've found a solution to dairy and I am checking with my gastro before I go and shoot myself in the food and end up hospitalized.

 

I'm not willing to be one of those people who ignores one side of the argument and blindly follows a certain set of ideals and beliefs without playing devils advocate and educating myself first.

Edited June 25, 2010 by Cellar Yeti

[lobsteriffic]

I'm not a doctor and I don't know much about your particular condition. But I think supplementing with the B-12 is a great idea and it is neat that you have a vegetarian doctor.

 

We've had a couple of other members on here with IBS and various issues have difficulties with some high fiber foods. A lot of it seems to be individual trial and error, which it sounds like you have done a lot of.

[chrisjs]

...and I am checking with my gastro before I go and shoot myself in the food and end up hospitalized.

I'm not sure if that was intentional or a typo, but I think it's appropriate. I don't have any first-hand experience with conditions that complicate a vegan diet, but we had a little scare when my daughter was born. She initially screened positive for galactosemia which is an inability to process galactose. Galactose is primarily found in, you guessed it, lactose so it might seem like it's not a problem for vegans. Unfortunately, that's not the case and *many* sources of vegan protein and quite high in galactose, such as chickpeas (the highest by far), lentils, kidney beans, soy beans, and so on. Even things like tomatoes have not insignificant amounts depending on how bad the galactosemia is. Luckily, further testing showed that she's only a carrier for the disorder and has sufficient levels of the GALT enzyme. (This also means that I and/or my wife are carriers so we need to get tested before we have another kid.)

 

So my point is that I kind of understand where you're coming from, especially considering you're still in the process of becoming vegan, it's not like you're a long-time vegan who suddenly got diagnosed with a B12 deficiency and ran out and bought some steak. That would be shocking.

 

I still think controlled supplementation makes more sense but I also understand not wanting to fuck with these things. So, seriously, good luck and don't let the grouchier vegans out there demotivate you.

[Richard]

Yeti, I don't think anybody on here is against you, or trying to argue, they just want to offer another way to get B12 in the most logical way they can think of, as it seemed like you were in a dilemma and wanted advice. People on here are going to want to help new vegans and give advice when they see people in a situation like yours. It's not that they are attacking you, just trying to provide information on things you might not be aware of. Sorry if you've got that impression from any of the posts on here. Everybody is behind you and glad that you're making the transition

[Adena]

For what it's worth, I was just going to come in here and say I'm sorry you're having such a difficult time, and I hope you get it all figured out!

[Cellar Yeti]

I found whole food nutritional supplements like Vega and Now Tru-Foods and doc said I could use one of those and he'll test me in 6 months. I have a MRP that isn't vegan, whey etc. that has one more day left.

 

As well I'll be using a nutritional yeast. I'm happy with my supplement stack. MRP, Protein, BCAA's/EAA's, Flaxseed Oil, Nutritional Yeast, EGCG. I'll be 100% vegan in a day or two.

 

I've spent a metric crap ton of money on bulk supplements/foods/items in the past few days. @_@ Good thing it'll last me 3-4 months.

[Ducati]

If you haven't tried all the supplements already, I would suggest asking for some samples first. I found I had a hard time with Vega as it gave me terrible gas. But the rice and hemp proteins don't at all.

 

If you already ordered it and it does give you problems. I wouldn't worry to much. You can probably find someone here to buy it from you.

[medman]

Your doctor is right, the final step in B12 absorption is in the terminal ileum (last 100 cm). Depending how much was resected, this alone can cause someone to stop absorbing dietary B12. However, other reasons for low B12 include dietary insufficiency, reduced/absent Intrinsic Factor production in the stomach, and bacterial overgrowth. There's a test called a Schilling test (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schilling_test) which systematically sorts through the potential causes.

 

I wish you luck getting this sorted out.

[Cellar Yeti]

I don't get gas with my ostomy bag.