Think God would be vegan?

[jonathan]

some unfortunate typos there gymhater!

 

CG, i arrived at the conclusions that i have now though a really wide variety of experiences. my direct family is not religious, but i have other parts of my family that are. i also went to a christian school for a year (as it was the only local one) when i was 10, which i really hated. we had bible study each week, and i could find nothing in it that made any sense.

 

i have also always had a fundamental problem with the idea of a greater being. i am a logical person, and base my opinions on scientific data and observations. i do not beleive in anything paranormal (as there has never been decent evidence for it) , so not believing in god falls in with that.

i also like to believe that people would do things because they feel they ought to, not because of religious duty. im a strong believer in free will (ah, you say, there are many ways free will can be curtailed in other ways - yes i know!).

 

as well as not believing in god, i also have a problem with organised religion. i acknowledge that in its current form none of the world religions represent the ideals of those who started them, but over history and still now, religion has been used to exploit people. it is effective in this because it appeals to peoples core beliefs, so it nearly always succeeds.

how many people would be alive today had the catholic church not taken a stance against condoms (and going as far as actually telling people it doesnt stop AIDS), how much safer would the world be without the constant judeo christian versus islam battle raging.

 

to use a particaular example, just before the french revolution, the king gave the cchurch special priviliges (and lots of money) so the church told the poor, desperate peasants (whose only hope on happiness was heaven) that unless they supported the king, they would go to hell.

the tables turned, the king pulled the carpet from under the church, so the church, within a very short pace of time, started saying that if the peasants supported the king, then they would go to hell!

 

that is pretty much how i see religion. as a divisive, exploitative, violent part of what should be our history.

 

i hope that the above doesnt offend, its not meant to. its only to clarify my stance

 

jonathan

 

ps, you rock too nat

[michaelhobson]

If you studied the Bible, I would love to hear you thoughts on Genesis and the Garden of "Vegan" (because that is essentially what it was).

 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about Genesis. It's a short and I believe trivial part of the bible. It's not even particularly interesting and doesn't seem to fit in well with the rest of the book. To take a few sentences from this about god giving us plants and seeds to eat and decide that god wanted us to live in a vegan eden is way too much of a stretch for me. Why are only a few select people abled to read these few sentences and understand the true meaning? Why then did god neglect to mention this again in the other 99% of the bible?

 

Even many Christians that I have known consider the book of Genesis to be at best a fairy tale version of creation.

 

With only a tiny fraction of a percent of christians willing to accept the genesis arguments, I would guess your chances of convincing this atheist, agnostic, hindu, buddhist bunch are slim.

 

Best of luck Nat. I think I'll try to leave this thread alone before I manage to offend even more people.

[Vamprilla]

...you guys debate too much. lol.

Anyway, in responce to compassionategirl, I just became Vegan... yesterday to be exact. lol. I watched that video you posted (I think it was you) and it was sick. But what I meant before was that I wouldn't go out and just kill something.

I don't think God would be Vegan/Vegitarian because i don't think he would care about the animals. My personal view is that he thinks them lesser than Humans. Which is partly why I"m not Christian, or anything like it. So really I don't believe in god.

[compassionategirl]

...you guys debate too much. lol.

Anyway, in responce to compassionategirl, I just became Vegan... yesterday to be exact. lol. I watched that video you posted (I think it was you) and it was sick. But what I meant before was that I wouldn't go out and just kill something.

I don't think God would be Vegan/Vegitarian because i don't think he would care about the animals. My personal view is that he thinks them lesser than Humans. Which is partly why I"m not Christian, or anything like it. So really I don't believe in god.

 

HI Kourtney,

 

Yes I had posted on this thread BEFORE I saw your post on the Meet your Meat Thread. Anyway, like I said there, thanks for watching meet your meat and showing it to your family since they dont understand why you want to be vegan!!!

 

You are clearly a beautiful woman both on the outside AND on the inside.

 

I know you meant that you wouldnt go out and actually kill something with your bare hands. But I always tell meat eaters (I know your not one anymore) that there is no integrity in paying somebody else to do something that you cannot do yourself.

 

YOU are so lucky to be close with Rob - he can truly inspire veganism in almost anybody!!! (The two things that really sealed my own personal vegan fate were Meet your Meat video and Rob Cheeke).

 

peace

[compassionategirl]

before I manage to offend even more people.

 

Not a chance, Michael.

[DanDz]

Jonathan, my friend, what is honestly the point of living if there is no God? Why not kill yourself now, but wait, before that go on doing whatever you want, whenever you want, because there is no reason to live morally if ther is no God. Without God, what is the point of this material existence? Why even live, there is no point? No God, no point to life. I think early you were trying to make a claim against the notion that God does punish his people. Some might wonder, if God is so loving, why do these weather events happen, for instance, where so many suffer? Well, haven't you ever been punished out of love? Didn't your mother punish you as a child? Not because she wanted you to suffer, but rather because she loved you? Your mother did not say, "If you only want to eat candy go ahead, if want to go play in the street, go ahead?" No there were rules and regulations to follow for a proper life, and if you broke those rules you were punished. But again, punished out of love. In much the same way, God is love. If the people don't obey the rules and regulations of God, thus defying the laws of nature, they are punished. Punished out of love.

 

Furthermore, Natalie's discussion subject did not invite criticism. It only invited a spiritual, philosophical debate. Also, she did not pick out bits and pieces of the Bible of which to alter to her own liking. She discussed certain passages where there is no debate to the meaning of the words.

 

I too have read into some eastern philosophies. I actually have a very close friend who is krisna conscious and they have their ancient scriptures called the bhagavat-gita. Other realigions of the eastern world also use these scriptures. Vegetarianism is also a commandment in the bhagavat-gita. Animal slaughter is prohibited, mostly for karmic reasons. If you kill in this love, you too, in turn, will be killed in the next life due to the laws of karma. To break free fromt the cycle of birth and death, you must attain God realization. God realization is the point of all religions.

 

What is the point of life, if there is no God? ( and I know you are going to ask, what is the piont of life, if there is a God.) I'lll be wating.

[compassionategirl]

some unfortunate typos there gymhater!

 

CG, i arrived at the conclusions that i have now though a really wide variety of experiences. my direct family is not religious, but i have other parts of my family that are. i also went to a christian school for a year (as it was the only local one) when i was 10, which i really hated. we had bible study each week, and i could find nothing in it that made any sense.

 

i have also always had a fundamental problem with the idea of a greater being. i am a logical person, and base my opinions on scientific data and observations. i do not beleive in anything paranormal (as there has never been decent evidence for it) , so not believing in god falls in with that.

i also like to believe that people would do things because they feel they ought to, not because of religious duty. im a strong believer in free will (ah, you say, there are many ways free will can be curtailed in other ways - yes i know!).

 

as well as not believing in god, i also have a problem with organised religion. i acknowledge that in its current form none of the world religions represent the ideals of those who started them, but over history and still now, religion has been used to exploit people. it is effective in this because it appeals to peoples core beliefs, so it nearly always succeeds.

how many people would be alive today had the catholic church not taken a stance against condoms (and going as far as actually telling people it doesnt stop AIDS), how much safer would the world be without the constant judeo christian versus islam battle raging.

 

to use a particaular example, just before the french revolution, the king gave the cchurch special priviliges (and lots of money) so the church told the poor, desperate peasants (whose only hope on happiness was heaven) that unless they supported the king, they would go to hell.

the tables turned, the king pulled the carpet from under the church, so the church, within a very short pace of time, started saying that if the peasants supported the king, then they would go to hell!

 

that is pretty much how i see religion. as a divisive, exploitative, violent part of what should be our history.

 

i hope that the above doesnt offend, its not meant to. its only to clarify my stance

 

jonathan

 

ps, you rock too nat

 

Thanks for taking the time to expand on your thoughts J.

 

peace

[compassionategirl]

...you guys debate too much. lol.

Anyway, in responce to compassionategirl, I just became Vegan... yesterday to be exact. lol. I watched that video you posted (I think it was you) and it was sick. But what I meant before was that I wouldn't go out and just kill something.

I don't think God would be Vegan/Vegitarian because i don't think he would care about the animals. My personal view is that he thinks them lesser than Humans. Which is partly why I"m not Christian, or anything like it. So really I don't believe in god.

 

Kourt, make sure that you eat a healthy and balanced vegan diet and that you are getting all the nutrients your body needs to thrive. Rob is a greaty resource for that? YOu hand around with him often, yes?

 

nat

[compassionategirl]

Some might wonder, if God is so loving, why do these weather events happen, for instance, where so many suffer? Well, haven't you ever been punished out of love? Didn't your mother punish you as a child? Not because she wanted you to suffer, but rather because she loved you? Your mother did not say, "If you only want to eat candy go ahead, if want to go play in the street, go ahead?" No there were rules and regulations to follow for a proper life, and if you broke those rules you were punished. But again, punished out of love. In much the same way, God is love. If the people don't obey the rules and regulations of God, thus defying the laws of nature, they are punished. Punished out of love.

 

 

Hi DanDz,

 

I respec and am very moved by the strength of your Faith in our Father. But, I must say that what you have described above does NOT explain why God maks innocent children, or animals, suffer. YOU say that we are punished by God out of love. Presumably, we are punished by God in order to be improved in some way. That makes sense when it comes to sinning humans. C. S. Lewis, in his book, The problem of Pain, also addressed this and essentially argued that people either deserve the suffering that they receive by their Creator OR are in someway improved by it.

 

But the foregoing begs the question, why do little kids suffer and die of cancer? What was their sin? Same with animals. WHy does God allow millions of animals to go to their slaughter without stopping it - surely he can. So it seems then that not only are those who are sinners punished by their Father, but morally innocent creatures are as well. My lack of understanding of why God can permit innocent children and animals to suffer has been the one thing that has truly at times, made me question my religion. I mentioned somewhere that I had almost "lost my religion" because of this very conundrum. It is, it seems, inexplicable, even your theory doesnt explain it.

 

C. S. Lewis in the same book had a whole chapter on trying to understand why God allows innocent animals to suffer. He said, animals neither DESERVE the pain, nor are they "improved" by it, which, according to him, makes animal suffering an ESPECIALLY vexing problem.

 

 

The only thing that I can say about that is that God works in mysterious ways. We cannot ever presume to know and understand exactly how God works and why s/he does ALL the things s/he does. But that is what faith essentially is - trust in the unknown, the unprovable, the inexplicable. I know that this is unsatisfactory to many people, and as a result, they have lost faith in God (assuming they had faith before).

 

I would love to hear your thoughts, Dan, on this inexplicable phenomenon of animal suffering and the suffering of innocent chilren.

 

peace

[robert]

Kourtney,

 

Great to hear you are VEGAN! Like I said, come by and hang out with Me and Megan anytime. We'll go Vegan Shopping Together.

 

Nat, thank you so much for posting this, I really appreciate it

 

YOU are so lucky to be close with Rob - he can truly inspire veganism in almost anybody!!! (The two things that really sealed my own personal vegan fate were Meet your Meat video and Rob Cheeke).

[compassionategirl]

Kourtney,

 

Great to hear you are VEGAN! Like I said, come by and hang out with Me and Megan anytime. We'll go Vegan Shopping Together.

 

 

Damn I wish I was there with you all.

 

P.S. I know "damn" isnt very Christian of me, but hey, I never said I was perfect, let alone a perfect Christian!!!

[DanDz]

Nat, I knew somebody would ask me that. I am afraid I don't know exactly how to explain it, at least not within Christianity. As I said in a different thread, I have a good friend who became a Hare Krishna devotee. His love of God which was great before, has strengthened. He is always telling me about the philosophies of this religion and they are very interesting and there are many similarities to Christianity. I don't really know how to explain it from a Christian philosophy, but my friend would say, as according to the bhagavat-gita, this is the Age Of Kali-uga and there is so much corruption and impurity. The laws of karma just simply tell us that the murders of animals are attached to killing, and thus they will be killed in their next life, as they have not attained God realization. That was about animals, but what about little children with cancer? That is when it gets so hard to explain. With cancer specifically, all I know is that cancer does not just happens, it develops. There are reasons a person becomes sick. Of course, with a child that is harder to say. There is a host of environmental and physical reasons that they may be stricken with the disease. I think it is extremely foolish to attribute God with the cause of the disease. From a more eastern perspective, perhaps even the young child was born with bad karma from a previous life. Perhaps that spirit soul within this child, was once a butcher in their past life. I know this sounds tough, but we do have the choice of where our destiny will take us. ( I realize I have incorporated a view of Christianity with reincarnation and karma, two words that seem forbidden in Christianty. But, I believe they can exist with the other and wouldn't have it any other way.)Tough question!

[compassionategirl]

Hey Dan!!

 

Ya I know it is tough. I ddint mena to put you on the spot at all. I just really wanted to hear your thoughts on it. I agree with prettyu much everything you said in yuor last post.

 

But I should just clarify that I dont only mean cancer. I just used that as an example. It could be any kind of suffering. From Christian point of view, it is hard to explain why our Almighty Father allows children to suffer, whether it is due to illness or whatever. I have struggled with that and with animals suffering, and many times i have, questioned God in moments of anger and outrage that he allows this to continue when he can stop it.

 

But the point about the karma would seem to better explain it. Maybe beings that are suffering in this lifetime had built up bad karma in previous lifetimes. Buddhism has always intrigued me, and like you said, there are so many things in common between Buddhism and Christianity - fundemental principles of kindness and comapssion and do unto others kind of things.

 

But ya you are right when you say that karma in itself is not a Christian beleif. yet it has always struck me as having something truthful about it. I do believe that we shall reap what we sow in this lifetime, which is consistent with both Buddhism and Christianity, right?

anyways sorry for rambling, but you are SO right these are very tough questions, and really difficult to answer or explain. Thanks for yor candor and for sharing your thoughts.

 

peace

Edited August 18, 2005 by compassionategirl

[jonathan]

DanDz,

 

it is evident that our mindsets are so radically different that this is going to be hard for us to see eye to eye.

 

not believing in God does not mean you live a life without purpose. from your point of view, it is something central to you, so life without that belief would seem empty. if you have never felt the need for such a belief, or were convinced by any of the arguments, you will never miss it.

 

being moral simply because your religion tells you to is quite sad. surely out of respect for common man and creature you would act morally? i have never felt that my lack of faith has left me without morals. i simply live my life so that i leave the world a better place than when i was born. i think that that is a sound philosophy to live by.

 

whilst i would not deny that many religious people are very decent, the most horrific crimes have been committed in the name of God. whilst it could be said that such people may not have believed, and were using religion as an excuse, the last thing humans need is another excuse to kill each other.

one could say 'without religion, we would still find ways to divide ourselves' which may well be true. but i would like to think that all the petty differences would be left behind and we would realise how similar we are as a race. after all colour is only skin deep and cultural differences are environmentally acquired.

 

Nat, you bring an interesting discussion to light. one of the fundamental tenets of christianity seems to be that the good are rewarded and the bad punished. the innocent are protected and the guilty get their comeupence.

 

form my perspective, in practice today (and throughout history really), the opposite is true.

take george bush for example; and all his cronnies too. evil, greedy, selfish men (and women) pretty much down to a tee. all millionaires, happily giving themselves more tax cuts and making their lives even more luxurious, whilst shitting on the poor from a great height.

in my mind, a just God would have killed them all off now, or at least caused them to be deposed.

in fact, nearly all the people in positions of great power or wealth in the world, are truly bad people.

 

other side of the coin, as you highlighted Nat, are the 30,000,000,000 animals that are murdered each year to satify the palates of those who eat them. in my lifetime that would mean approximately 630 billion farm animals have been killed. assuming i die aged 100 (which i fully intend to to!) thats 3 trillion animals at current rates over the course of my life. i find it unacceptable that a just God would allow this.

 

Final example. Drug companies in africa. they actually refuse to cut the price of HIV/AIDS treatment to something just above cost of production because it might hurt profits. subsequently, millions of already impoverished people are suffering and dying. yet the drug companies continue to make billions in profit and the executives continue to live like kings.

 

unfair doesnt begin to cover it.

 

if you assume that there is a God, from my perspective at least, you cannot assume s/he is moral or just. the evidence against it is too strong. so to turn the whole question on its head, how DanDz can you be moral when you follow such a seemingly immoral God?

 

jonathan

 

 

please no-one take offense! im just discussing stuff - i love debates

[jonathan]

wow! there were 4posts whilst i was writting mine! im not slow at typing - i was just thinking

 

jonathan

[compassionategirl]

i find it unacceptable that a just God would allow this.

 

jonathan

 

 

please no-one take offense! im just discussing stuff - i love debates

 

No worries Jonathan. Candor is always appreciated I think by us all!

 

But yes, Dan Dz too I think said in his last post that this is the one thing that is such a difficult, inexplicable thing. WHy does a just and loving God allow the mammoth suffering of INNOCENT creatures. I dont understand this either. Indeed, I think this is the one thing that has always baffled even the most well-versed of theologians. Again, the only rejoinder I can provide is that God works in mysterious ways. I know J that you will find that a very lame explanation, but it is all I got

 

peace, man, peace

 

Damn it why can't everybody just be vegan now!!! (Sorry for that little outburst!!)

[compassionategirl]

I just missed some posts that crept up before I finished mine!!!

 

I am not slow at typing either

 

actrually i am . 9i make lots of typos and sometimes have to proofread - but sometimes i am too lazy to proofread.

 

sorry if that annoys anybody.

[Vamprilla]

Yes, Robrt is a great insperaton, and that video. I'm not with him a whole lot, but I'm actualy a his house right now. (Hi Robert.) Anyway, thank you for the Comment Nat.

[Vamprilla]

Kourtney,

 

Great to hear you are VEGAN! Like I said, come by and hang out with Me and Megan anytime. We'll go Vegan Shopping Together.

 

 

Damn I wish I was there with you all.

 

P.S. I know "damn" isnt very Christian of me, but hey, I never said I was perfect, let alone a perfect Christian!!!

 

I swear a bit too and Robert get's on my case about it.

Robert, going Vegan shopping would be so helpful!

[Richard]

If karma is real, then wouldn't it be a good use of my time to randomly stab people to death? Given that everything happens for a reason and that nothing bad can happen without someone deserving the punishment, anyone I happen to pick will have deserved it right? How can my point be argued against if you believe in karma (which I don't). I realise that by doing this, I would then recieve bad karma myself which would manifest in some nasty way.

[michaelhobson]

I think early you were trying to make a claim against the notion that God does punish his people. Some might wonder, if God is so loving, why do these weather events happen, for instance, where so many suffer? Well, haven't you ever been punished out of love? Didn't your mother punish you as a child?

 

I think the main difference here is that your mother doesn't give you one chance and then burn you in a pit of fire for all eternity if you get it wrong.

 

I really think the idea of the god of the bible being a loving and caring god is absolutely absurd. This is the same god who would create homosexuals and then demand that they be stoned to death for being homosexuals. UGH!

[Vamprilla]

I think early you were trying to make a claim against the notion that God does punish his people. Some might wonder, if God is so loving, why do these weather events happen, for instance, where so many suffer? Well, haven't you ever been punished out of love? Didn't your mother punish you as a child?

 

I think the main difference here is that your mother doesn't give you one chance and then burn you in a pit of fire for all eternity if you get it wrong.

 

I really think the idea of the god of the bible being a loving and caring god is absolutely absurd. This is the same god who would create homosexuals and then demand that they be stoned to death for being homosexuals. UGH!

 

You can kill in God's name, but god forbid you be a homosexual. Now tell me, what's wrong with that.

[compassionategirl]

Kourtney, I dont see anywhere in the Bible that supports the notion that you "can kill in God's name". people do it - but that doesnt mean that GOD wants them too.

 

In fact, Jesus's compassion was not ONLY limited to people that who beleived in him. He taught kindness and compassion for all beings.

 

The sentiment that God would approve of killing in his name is absolutely absurd.

 

P.S. I wish I was at Rob's house too.

[michaelhobson]

 

The sentiment that God would approve of killing in his name is absolutely absurd.

(

 

So do you only accept Genesis and reject the rest of the Old Testament?

[compassionategirl]

Tell me the passage in the Bible where God said he WANTED or REQUIRED us to slaughter innocent people in his name. Note that Iam saying INNOCENT people. The old testament describes a period of human history where people were lawless, immoral, ruthless, etc. etc. Simply put, they tested God's patience to the max. God sent them profits, and they stoned the profits, etc. etc. Eventually, God got fed up and unleashed his wrath. But to say that God would approve of the killing of innocent people is a dubious assertion, at best.

 

But The New Testament with Christ was the NEW ORDER. Christ came to establish this new order, and it was to be one of kindness, and mercifulness. Remember that woman that was caught in the act of adultery? And they wanted to stone her? Jesus said, let he he has not sinned cast the first stone. That empathetic and compassionate and merciful new order was what Christ, God's son, was essentially all about.

 

The "world order" in the new testatament was superseded by the new order brought by Jesus.

 

Christ came to set everybody on the right path and to give up their blood-lusty ways, including animal sacrifices, which people MISTAKENLY believed pleased God. Remember that in the old testament people use to sacrifice PEOPLE thinking that this is what God wanted. Eventually, it was realized that this was ABHORRENT to God, not pleasing to him!!!

 

 

Michael, I know how you feel about God, and you say that a kind God is not described in the New Testament. But I dont think you have mentioned your thoughts on Christ and the new testatmentr. Do you think the new testament describes a kind and compassionate SON of God (i.e. Jesus). Would be very interested to know your thoughts on that too.

 

peac

 

CG