CollegeB Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 Crashnburn.... you mentoined buying soy milk in a reply. Sorry I didnt catch everything, I just skim through these elitist posts. But anyhow.. The point II was trying to make is that there is plenty of plant food available on the planet to feed everyone. I imagine that yes in the real world not everyone will be vegan, because of choices, preferences, and limited supply chains. I do feel though that if they have animals they have plant foods to eat. And actually you dont need a refrigerator to have soy milk, you just need such an appliance for cold soy milk. Everyone with soy milk is more an issue of equality and that isnt realistic either, as has been pointed out. And about elitism...these little threads start up and burn for a few days, nothing good comes from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crashnburn Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 He he.. Well a lot of the cattle in India feeds on grass & dry hay.. This grass and hay is not really from CULTIVATED land. As in.... if there was an ability to produce some good crop on some land then they would not have grass/ fodder growing there. Anyways.. how about some advise on that workout plan ? Ill try to get pictures & goals in order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CollegeB Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 right on lets get back to business, with the workouts and all. Eat vegan, get big, strong etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FormicaLinoleum Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 crashnburn, I just don't see anything wrong with judging one action to be superior to another, whether it be in its ability to bring about a goal, morality, etc. We all do it and we do it all the time. It's necessary to the decision-making process. This is different from judging or dismissing people. I agree that this is bad. However, I would say that the vast majority of people here, if not all, are talking about the relative value of actions, not of people. You are judging actions yourself. Your whole point in responding in this thread was to share your opinion that accepting and respecting other people's choices is superior to judging what others do, and that we should also adopt this opinion and begin to act accordingly. That's exactly what you are telling us not to do wrt to veganism. We have different opinions about what's best for animals, the environment, people, and so on. But we all have opinions, and I see nothing wrong with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willpeavy Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 vbb.com seems pretty tolerant to me. Whenever non-vegans sign up here most everyone seems welcoming to them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 That is a lovely sentiment and my reply was less than cordial, reminding him/her that it is the modern technology that her/he was damning that got all of that nice, mostly fresh fruits and vegetables to him/her. So, in my way of thinking, unless you live in the Sacramento valley, or a tropical paradise, a true vegan/vegetarian/life style is a blessing of the modern world. Be happy that it's available. If someone doesn't agree with it, head butting them isn't going to change their minds. So, be vegan, be happy, and be thankful that you live in a day and age when that is an option. I'm going to go have an apricot. JonScott Nearing was a near vegan (cept when people brought stuff over that had a little bit of diary in it) and he lived off whatever he grew on his own land. He lived to 100 this way. It doesn't actually require modern technology at all except the glassware and a pressure cooker for the canning I guess.... Fruit, vegetables, etc. It can all be grown and canned and without modern technology that is what we'd be doing. Probably be happier that way too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crashnburn Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 vbb.com seems pretty tolerant to me. Whenever non-vegans sign up here most everyone seems welcoming to them I know . I just dont like ELITEST mindsets.. and that not just for VBB but even other groups totally unrelated to Vegan or body building. Whether it is the guy who supercharged his vehicle to 900 hp or someone who built a gaming rig that rocks. They dont need to go around BASHING others. PS: Are there no HAPPY COWS anywhere in the united states? I recall the times at a village where one relative of ours had their own cows.. and calves and they would feed, pray to the cows etc. What if someone found a holistic way to do dairy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CollegeB Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 Whats your deal with milk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9nines Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 This thread could prove helpful. Seeing counter viewpoints of vegetarians versus vegan might provide insight into counter arguments against the majority of people eating the standard american diet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FormicaLinoleum Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 crashnburn, what is it in this thread that you object to? I just re-read it and it seems to me that the majority of the conversation is about how best to relate to non-vegans and have a chance of opening their minds to the possibility of being vegan. And the consensus seems to be that the best thing is to be laid-back and accepting and nice, not angry or judgemental. I don't see anything at all that suggests that any of us thinks that non-vegans should not be allowed in vegan groups (we all welcome vegetarians and omnis on this board, for one) or that we would not share a vegan meal with someone who is not vegan. On the contrary, most of us love to do things like that so that people are exposed to vegan ideas and food in a positive way. Do you object to the idea of trying to convert people to veganism, period, regardless of how it's done? Again, you seem to be suggesting that non-elitism is better than elitism. Isn't that a form of elitism in itself? Shouldn't you just respect people's choice to be elitist and accept that non-elitism may be right for some people but not for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willpeavy Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 vbb.com seems pretty tolerant to me. Whenever non-vegans sign up here most everyone seems welcoming to them I know . I just dont like ELITEST mindsets.. and that not just for VBB but even other groups totally unrelated to Vegan or body building. Whether it is the guy who supercharged his vehicle to 900 hp or someone who built a gaming rig that rocks. They dont need to go around BASHING others. PS: Are there no HAPPY COWS anywhere in the united states? I recall the times at a village where one relative of ours had their own cows.. and calves and they would feed, pray to the cows etc. What if someone found a holistic way to do dairy? I know what you mean, some vegans are jerks and act really snobby about food. I think most vegans are nice though. If you're going to buy dairy, see if there are any Hare Krshna farms around where you live. They usually treat their cows well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
compassionategirl Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 vbb.com seems pretty tolerant to me. Whenever non-vegans sign up here most everyone seems welcoming to them I know . I just dont like ELITEST mindsets.. and that not just for VBB but even other groups totally unrelated to Vegan or body building. Whether it is the guy who supercharged his vehicle to 900 hp or someone who built a gaming rig that rocks. They dont need to go around BASHING others. PS: Are there no HAPPY COWS anywhere in the united states? I recall the times at a village where one relative of ours had their own cows.. and calves and they would feed, pray to the cows etc. What if someone found a holistic way to do dairy? I know what you mean, some vegans are jerks and act really snobby about food. I think most vegans are nice though. If you're going to buy dairy, see if there are any Hare Krshna farms around where you live. They usually treat their cows well. But why not just ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
compassionategirl Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 (edited) I just dont like ELITEST mindsets.. and that not just for VBB but even other groups totally unrelated to Vegan or body building. Whether it is the guy who supercharged his vehicle to 900 hp or someone who built a gaming rig that rocks. They dont need to go around BASHING others. The comparison you make between: people who frown upon a lifestyle that causes immense suffering to innocent and sentient beings and wreaks environmental havoc, on the one hand, and people who frown upon others with less supercharged cars and whatnot on the other hand, is problematic for self-evident reasons crashnburn! I am not even sure what you mean by "bash" exactly. Would you "bash" somebody that sets your puppy on fire? What about somebody who rapes and kills children? Or would you take a "to each his own" stance with the individuals responsible? And the typical response of "oh but animals are just animals and humans are humans" is not satisfactory in my opinion. YOu are on a vegan board, and as you suggested and others confirmed, we are all very welcoming of everybody here. However, understand that at least some of us here feel that compassion is "superior" to indifference or willfull blindness to the suffering around us, human and non. That is presumably why some people go from omni to vegetarian in the first place - because they feel that it is ethically better/superior/more sound (or whatever word you want to call ity) to omnivorism. [/i] Nobody is perfect, but I believe that we each have a responsibility to make choices that impact the earth and the animals with which we share it as minimally as possible. That is where veganism comes in. It reflects a respect for those among us that are the most vulnerable, oppressed and abused class of beings, and a respect for the planet which sustains all animals - human and non. Veganism is the logical conclusion of ethical vegetarianism. There are many in the literature on animal protection/rights that plausibly argue that if one's goal is to reduce suffering, the second best option to veganism is NOT to boycott meat but to keep eating meat and boycott dairy and eggs instead because animals used for milk and egg production suffer for much longer than animals raised only for the flesh. Note that it is also unfair on vegans that others continue to live their lives as if they are the only beings that mattered. Why should only a handful of considerate and caring people have to carry the moral weight of those who don't think about the impact of their choices beyond their own little lives? I can tell you that it is very disheartening to see and hear daily the suffering of animals and to know that they suffer, in silence, behind the closed doors of slaughterhouses and labs, because of selfish and/or thoughtless and/or wilfully blind and/or indifferent omnis. The wasteful and ruthless exploitation of animals sucks . Omnis can call that "bashing non vegans" all they like, but doing so does not diminish the merit and truth of that message. Edited March 22, 2006 by compassionategirl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 To be honest I hate the use of the word "elitist." It's commonly used by the rightwing as a way to smear anyone who acts like they've actually read a book. As if by the very act of being intelligent they can automatically be dismissed as wrong. I think elitist only has meaning when the person in question enjoys thinking they are better than everyone else. For a vegan to be elitist they'd have to be happy that most people were still eating meat. I think it's safe to say that there are virtually no such vegans in existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
compassionategirl Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 To be honest I hate the use of the word "elitist." It's commonly used by the rightwing as a way to smear anyone who acts like they've actually read a book. As if by the very act of being intelligent they can automatically be dismissed as wrong. I think elitist only has meaning when the person in question enjoys thinking they are better than everyone else. For a vegan to be elitist they'd have to be happy that most people were still eating meat. I think it's safe to say that they're are virtually no such vegans in existence. Yes, I totally agree Jay. It isnt like vegans are a bunch of people that have an exclusive club and are reluctant to let people in to that club. Vegans are just the opposite - they encourage and hopefully inspire people to commit to a more compassionate/gentle/aware and thus better, lifestyle! No vegan is happy that other people still support the murder of innocent animals for the frivolous reason of pleasing their tastebuds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willpeavy Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 vbb.com seems pretty tolerant to me. Whenever non-vegans sign up here most everyone seems welcoming to them I know . I just dont like ELITEST mindsets.. and that not just for VBB but even other groups totally unrelated to Vegan or body building. Whether it is the guy who supercharged his vehicle to 900 hp or someone who built a gaming rig that rocks. They dont need to go around BASHING others. PS: Are there no HAPPY COWS anywhere in the united states? I recall the times at a village where one relative of ours had their own cows.. and calves and they would feed, pray to the cows etc. What if someone found a holistic way to do dairy? I know what you mean, some vegans are jerks and act really snobby about food. I think most vegans are nice though. If you're going to buy dairy, see if there are any Hare Krshna farms around where you live. They usually treat their cows well. But why not just ??? Because a lot of the people who aren't willing to go forego dairy are willing to buy dairy from Hare Krshnas, organic farms, etc instead of the normal stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crashnburn Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 This was the first essay I wrote as a child in India.. (transalted). Cow is our mother..Cow gives us milk..Cow is... x ...Cow has 4 legs... etc etc.. Which is why even if you step into a McDonalds in India.. the hamburgers will not have beef. Beef consumption is practically non existant there. Indian food habits.. revlove BIG TIME around milk products. Pretty much every day of my life I've had home made curds (best for SPICY INDIAN FOOD DIGESTION), home made lassi (ultimate summer heat coolant), etc. A bunch of cows & bulls are used for agriculture.. (where people dont have machinery) for ploughing fields, for transporting in rural areas etc. Either ways.. time to go talk to the local ISKCON people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Dude, I don't want to know about all these great milk products you had back in the day in India. If you think that cows are never abused in India you are much mistaken. Cow slaughter is illegal in most, though not all states. Farmers who have cows walk them for literally hundreds of miles to states where it is legal to have them slaughtered. There is a particularly strong trade in cow leather at the moment. I'll find sources if you want them. Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Even without slaughter, there is no reason to breed cows in the first place is there? Unless I am mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 To be honest I hate the use of the word "elitist." It's commonly used by the rightwing as a way to smear anyone who acts like they've actually read a book. As if by the very act of being intelligent they can automatically be dismissed as wrong. I think elitist only has meaning when the person in question enjoys thinking they are better than everyone else. For a vegan to be elitist they'd have to be happy that most people were still eating meat. I think it's safe to say that there are virtually no such vegans in existence. That's interesting, and I think people are probably not agreeing on the word which is being discussed I tend to think of elitism as a separation, like a private club where you don't integrate with people who are not in your elite, because they're not worthy, because you're better than them. As others have said, I am not sure that anyone on the board is elitist, unless something else is meant. I am not sure of what other people's definition of the term is. I get the feeling that the word 'elitism' is referring to anyone who thinks it's better to do A than B, which of course is a crazy definition, because it suggests that we shouldn't feel that one thing is better than another, therefore it leads ultimately to a lack of morality, given that nothing should be called bad or good :s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willpeavy Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 For this thread I figured "elitism" referred to being snobby and not allowing people exactly like you into the group Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
compassionategirl Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 (edited) Dude, I don't want to know about all these great milk products you had back in the day in India. If you think that cows are never abused in India you are much mistaken. Cow slaughter is illegal in most, though not all states. Farmers who have cows walk them for literally hundreds of miles to states where it is legal to have them slaughtered. There is a particularly strong trade in cow leather at the moment. I'll find sources if you want them. Jonathan Ya, I second that. The Indian leather trade is extremely cruel and thriving, and at least some of that leather comes from cows. It sounds to me like you, Crashnburn, are trying to justify or rationalize or glorify or promote the exploitation of cows. A world that has less exploitation and cruelty is better than a world that has more exploitation and cruelty. A compassionate lifestyle is morally superior to a violent, cruel or indifferent one. The argument that that is an extremist or elitist position is bullocks. We invite everybody to heighten their consciousness and adopt a truly compassionate lifestyle, one that relfects a heightened consciousness - i.e. veganism. If you are serious about walking on the earth as gently as possible, go vegan. Edited March 24, 2006 by compassionategirl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crashnburn Posted March 25, 2006 Share Posted March 25, 2006 It sounds to me like you, Crashnburn, are trying to justify or rationalize or glorify or promote the exploitation of cows. NO. We've grown up praying to cows. Either ways.. lets agree to disagree.. because I've seen a different version of a different life somewhere that you havent.. Maybe someday I'll have a self realization and go vegan. Your overselling wont make it happen. Just like when my dad would say ..you should go swimming.. you should workout.. too much pushing.. made me tune it out . Now I know.. about it.. I'll let it sink in and see if I can head in direction somewhere in my mind.. PS: I know u want to have the last word here.. so.. go ahead . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
compassionategirl Posted March 25, 2006 Share Posted March 25, 2006 It sounds to me like you, Crashnburn, are trying to justify or rationalize or glorify or promote the exploitation of cows. NO. We've grown up praying to cows. Either ways.. lets agree to disagree.. because I've seen a different version of a different life somewhere that you havent.. Maybe someday I'll have a self realization and go vegan. Your overselling wont make it happen. Just like when my dad would say ..you should go swimming.. you should workout.. too much pushing.. made me tune it out . Now I know.. about it.. I'll let it sink in and see if I can head in direction somewhere in my mind.. PS: I know u want to have the last word here.. so.. go ahead . Since your family grew up praying to and revering cows, then isnt that all the more reason why you should be boycotting the American dairy industry? According to your avatar, you're not in Kansas anymore - oops, I mean India anymore. You live in America, and in America, there is no high reverance for cows, only exploitation and misery. In fact, you reside in Texas, which is probably one of the worst cow-exploitating states in the country! So unless you can find in the U.S. the kind of farms that Will mentioned, you are supporting a dairy and egg industry that is generally cruel and exploitative. Nobody is perfect. Nobody can avoid causing some harm. But without a doubt, veganism makes a greater contribution to the reduction of animal suffering than does vegetarianism. Even if this statement is not applicable in the Indian context, it remains a fact nevertheless in the North American context. As for India's leather trade, here is some footage. I have no doubt that you and your family/relatives grew up revering cows, but like Jonathan said, if you think that cows are never abused in India, with all due respect, you need to take off the rose coloured glasses crashnburn: http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/Prefs.asp?video=skin-trade-ili Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
compassionategirl Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 The originator of this thread, Dan, hasnt been posting on the forum a while, but I heard from him and he is doing well, and he got two rescued rabbits that are damn adorable. Dan if you read this, post a pic of them will ya? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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