Interesting - found a study (second-hand)

[lmmy]

http://www.sparkpeople.com/resource/fitness_articles.asp?id=603

 

Body Image & Body Satisfaction

Recent national studies involving over 11,000 high school students and 60,000 adults found the following differences in how males and females feel about their bodies:

 

* Among adults, 48% of women and 26% of men described themselves as overweight, while 38% of the women and 24% of the men were trying to lose weight at the time of the survey.

* Men showed a greater tendency to see their weight as normal when it was actually above normal according to their BMI; women were more likely to see themselves as overweight with a normal BMI.

* Among high school students, 44% of the females and 15% of the males were trying to lose weight. Females were four times more likely to restrict calorie intake than boys, who more often reported using exercise as a weight loss method.

* 55% of women reported being dissatisfied with their weight, compared to 41% of men. Both men and women rated “health concerns” lower than appearance and social acceptance as reasons for their dissatisfaction. Although excess body fat was the number one cause of dissatisfaction for both men and women, over 60% of men (and only 10% of women) reported being significantly distressed about lack of muscle development.

* Among individuals who were classified as underweight according to their BMI, 83% of women reported that they liked their appearance, compared to 77% of men.

* Males were significantly more likely to report that regular exercise made them feel good about their bodies, while women were more likely to report that changes in their weight influenced how they felt.

* The magazines most read by women had 10 times more diet and weight-loss related content than magazines read by men, which featured content related to body building, fitness, muscle toning, and muscle building supplements.

* Males and females reported similar problems with emotional eating. However, men were more likely to report high protein foods such as meat as “comfort foods,” while women were more likely to turn to high carbohydrate foods such as sweets.

 

I just wanted to use this to point out that whatever you think "looks" healthy probably isn't -- even by the unscientific standards of the BMI (which was created with no scientific input by an insurance company, MetroLife). It's good to remember that we have a very warped view on what is a healthy weight, and this has everything to do with the Beauty Myth. Remember, next time that you see a skinny woman, that she may be very unhealthy -- and that, next time you see an obese woman, that she may jog at least three miles every day (as I do) and do an hour of weightlifting and cardio at the gym.

 

Summary? Looks aren't everything -- stop judging how healthy someone may be on them. Bodybuilders can still have heart attacks; skinny people still get cancer (more on the invalidity of studies "proving" that excess weight causes cancer later if someone brings it up).

 

The article also states the minimum bodyfat percentages for each sex: 12% for women and 4% for men. This means that, if you're a woman whose (let's give in to conformity a little here) "optimal" BMI is 135 lbs, you should at least have 16.2 lbs of fat on your body. However, I'll note that this is the minimum, and minimum does not generally mean "best working"; it's just the minimum.

[offense74]

I'm not saying skinny = healthy.

Here's the logic:

If A eats the SAD then A has a bigger probability to:

1. Get fat.

2. Get cancer.

3. Get heart disease.

4. Get diabetes.

compared to B who eats like it's suggested by (for example) Joel Fuhrman.

 

There are people that eats the SAD and are skinny, that doesn't mean that it is healthy. There are also people who lives on fruits and veggies that are overweight and die of cancer when they are 25, that doesn't mean that fruits and veggies are bad for you.

 

Getting thin by starving yourself is a disease. Eating right and getting thin in the process is a positive thing and should be encouraged.

[Guest]

skinny doesn't mean healthy but small(short more specifically) people with low BMI, low insulin levels and oddly low iron diets tend to live longer...the low iron thing was a suprise to me

[9nines]

Sorry to fall back on animal studies but animal studies consistently show that lower caloric intake means longer life and less disease and cancer.

 

My guess is that this is due to body waste and toxin removal. More calories and higher fat and protein intake need more resource devoted to breaking the food down, which means less energy to clean your body. So, less energy for cleaning along with more waste and toxin due to the higher food intake creates higher chance of disease and organ problems.

[9nines]

oddly low iron diets tend to live longer...the low iron thing was a suprise to me

 

Iron is a toxin. I found that out when I tried iron supplements. I got the worst headaches I ever had and they lasted all day and I rarely get headaches outside of that experience. I then researched iron and it is needed but it is toxic to us, if you get more than a fairly small amount. Same with Vitamin D.

[Guest]

Sorry to fall back on animal studies but animal studies consistently show that lower caloric intake means longer life and less disease and cancer.

 

My guess is that this is due to body waste and toxin removal. More calories and higher fat and protein intake need more resource devoted to breaking the food down, which means less energy to clean your body. So, less energy for cleaning along with more waste and toxin due to the higher food intake creates higher chance of disease and organ problems.

 

I think part of it might be use of energy...if you give your body alot more food than it needs(assuming your not a person that accumulates lots of stored fat) then your body will burn it(more will also not be absorbed of course). I think this probably wears your body out more than it needs too...kinda like having your car run a little rich on gasoline. Its better to make your body run on less so it does less work to do the same tasks

[lmmy]

Offense74, I agree with you.

 

However, I haven't seen any studies that compare overweight/obese vegans and overweight/obese humans eating the SAD and measure cancer, heart disease, etc. rates. This is my main peeve when I hear people talking about how being overweight is unhealthy for you -- as far as I know, all the studies showing a correlation between fatness and cancer, heart disease, etc. have been done on those humans eating the SAD. Overweight/obese people (both human and nonhuman) tend to eat a LOT more than average-weight people, and if they're eating the SAD that means a lot more of the SAD "foods".

 

There are also skinny vegans who have had cancer (I know one). At least some cases of cancer are purely biological chance -- that is, nothing you can do will stop it from happening.

 

Veganpotter, there is at least one study that disagrees with you; I read about it in The Obesity Myth. Basically, the study found that humans with a BMI of 28 had the lowest rates of mortality, while those humans with a BMI of 18 had the highest rates of mortality. As far as the research goes, at least the latter part (low BMI = higher mortality) is true; if you're underweight you're much more likely to die prematurely than if you were overweight.

 

P.S. Also, I found a source that contradicts the "minimum bodyfat percentage": http://www.weightlossforall.com/fat-percentage-ideal.htm -- this link says that under 21% bodyfat is unhealthy for women.

[Guest]

I think underweight is an odd thing to categorize...surely there are people that are obviously underweight but many people are just small and can't do anything about it...its very obvious when people are obese...not sure how this effect the numbers though

[lmmy]

But often when someone's "small" their frame is small too, so it works out that way. Kind of like you can't always trust the BMI to tell when someone's obese because it doesn't take into account muscle mass -- Shaq would be obese by the standards of the BMI.

 

Although, if a woman's small in teenagerhood, and I'm talking what we think of as "hot" (see first post), then it's likely because she doesn't eat enough. You'd be amazed how many women who are already thin have eating disorders; this may be why they're thin, or the thinness may just be adding to her fear of getting fat. I was a perfectly average-weight girl at 11, but I thought I was fat and my schoolmates -- who were already dieting and pulling in their abs to look better and stealing makeup to make themselves "prettier" -- didn't help this.

 

Moreover, if you accept that some people are "underweight" by nature, then you must accept that some people are "overweight" by nature, and thus the BMI is crap because it tries to fit humans into a narrow definition of a "healthy weight".

 

Otherwise, underweight humans are just as unhealthy as overweight humans (actually, more, because you're more at risk being 5 pounds underweight than 80 pounds overweight).

[offense74]

Immy:

There are single studies who says that smoking is good for you and that humans are not contributing to global warming. The results of these studies are heavily used by organisations that gain on these results. It all depends on what questions you ask, who funds the study and what you want to research. The publicity of a study depends on the funding of the advertisement.

As most Americans know the dairy industry have pushed a campaign that states that you should loose weight with dairy even though at least 100 studies says you shouldn't. The campaign is however based on a real study. As I remember the study was about CLA which is a fat that appears in trace amounts in dairy. They also found that feeding stuff to cows that they are not supposed to eat increases the amount of CLA. They are looking further into this, thanks to this one study.

 

If you eat fruits, veggies, some beans, some nuts, some seeds and nothing else you will find it hard to be obese (even though it's possible). If you also are physically active it will be even harder.

If you put the research data together, this is the type of lifestyle you should live if you want to be healthy and minimize your risk of cancer, heart disease, diabetes, autoimmunitive diseases and probably some other ailments too.

 

Nutritional research is a lucrative and massive business. The results of the data needs to be examined by someone who knows the rules that this business are working with. Luckily for us there are people who does this for us, (almost) for free. Instead of looking at single studies, read the China study, Eat to Live or something like it where they put the reserch data that are available today together instead of looking at single studies of some compound found in dairy or the right BMI.

 

It seems to me that you want to tell people to stay fat for some reason that is beyond me. Why not tell them to eat fruits and veggies?

[Odidnetne]

It seems to me that you want to tell people to stay fat for some reason that is beyond me. Why not tell them to eat fruits and veggies?

 

You said it yourself, the Nutrition field is lucrative. Keeping people false with "low carb" diets and false hopes keeps things like diet books, medications, most junk foods, meat and dairy in business.

[offense74]

It seems to me that you want to tell people to stay fat for some reason that is beyond me. Why not tell them to eat fruits and veggies?

 

You said it yourself, the Nutrition field is lucrative. Keeping people false with "low carb" diets and false hopes keeps things like diet books, medications, most junk foods, meat and dairy in business.

Yes, but the real information is available. We all found it!

People are looking for excuses not to eat the fruits and veggies that everyone knows they should eat, and the meat, dairy and crap food industry are providing those excuses for them.

 

The reason why I reacted to this topic is because of my co-workers.

We just had a medical check-up at work. One guy (who's in his late 40's or early 50's) had a blood pressure of 180/110 and was put on blood pressure lowering medicine for the rest of his life. He was also told that he probably has diabetes (his blood sugar has been constantly over 6). He is also obese. I told him about this thing called veggies and the next two days he came to lunch with a chicken salad that was drenched in some youghurt dressing that he put salt on. He, of course, said like everyone else that they love fruits and veggies and eat alot of it and you realise when you see what they eat that it's the chicken and the dressing that they love. He's now back to eating hot dogs, cake and greasy sandwiches again. And then he goes out to smoke. He also have no problem drinking 30 beers in one weekend.

Now. I'm sitting on the other side of the table with the answeres, watching this grown man with a wife and 3 kids eating himself to death. I have a hard time coping with it.

He's not the only one at my workplace that have problems.

One guy is overweight, also had elevated blood pressure and might have diabetes. Today he had the seafood lasgna with a side salad plate that was half full of meat.

One woman have such painful arthritis that sometimes she needs help to open doors.

 

Every day I watch this dance of death called lunch. Slaughtered animals that are slowly and painfully killing my friends.

The first two guys would benefit from just loosing weight alone. As I understand Immy wants me to tell them that there is no problem and that they should keep doing what they are doing because the BMI scale is created by a corrupt corporation. I can't do that and sleep good at night.

[Guest]

You should tell them fine...maybe the BMI scale isn't all that important(since it doesn't really include muscle mass so accurately)...but then say, look at how fat, lazy, pathetic and unhealthy you are...it should work to atleast make them feel lousy

[lmmy]

Veganpotter, I'm going to ask you this honestly: are you stupid? Do you really think that every fat human out there doesn't feel ashamed of their weight, that they're ugly, that they're worthless because of their size, etc.? Do you seriously have no idea that this is how a neurosis about eating becomes an eating disorder? Do you actually think that telling someone that they aren't fit to be seen in public will make them go out and sign up with a gym so they can display their fatness for all to see?

 

If you said that to my face, I'd have punched you. And I, sir, have a 70-lb punching bag and work out with it for 30 mins every night.

 

Now, for the rest of you:

 

offense74, I've heard of those studies and you know what? They concluded that smoking was good for you because SMOKERS ARE THINNER. Besides, that was probably a much, much smaller study than this one, and anyways.. what I bolded wasn't saying that being fat was good or bad for you (in fact, I believe it's neutral), but saying that we have a warped perception of what is a healthy weight or not.

 

And actually, check on PCRM, you can count with two hands the number of studies that say that dairy dieting is useless (the only study that says you should was 'proven' with a calcium pill). Please know your facts before you debate with me.

 

I am obese and my diet is fruits, veggies, grains, and maybe a tablespoon of olive oil now and then for a veggie saute. Apart from popcorn and bread, and last week a bit of seitan, that's the most processed I get. I exercise at least 30 minutes every day; my favourite exercise activities are jogging and weightlifting, and I go to the gym almost every night (Sundays are the only day I don't go, though that's changing) and I go on the elliptical for 20 minutes, and usually I'll dance around in my room for 10+ minutes a day. I eat, on average, 1,900 calories a day.

 

Why am I still fat? I have no fucking clue. It's probably because all the years of dieting I did when I was younger have permanently changed my body's metabolism and made it harder for me to lose weight.

 

To answer your last insulting bit of speculation, I don't care if people stay fat or not, as long as they're not eating or wearing animal products. However, I would abso-fucking-lutely love it every company that sold a processed product went out of business immediately and we all started eating fruits and nuts, vegetables, grains, and legumes.

 

P.S. If diabetes can be fixed by losing weight alone, then why does a similar amount of lost weight on both a vegan diet and the ADA diet still have the vegan diet coming out ahead with 75% of people being able to stop their insulin altogether? Come the fuck on.

[princessbee]

One of my friends injured her back working on the house one day and was laid up for a while during which time she gained a lot of weight. Trying to get a chiropractor to look at the x-rays which revealed a slipped disc, instead of looking at her and saying 'you need to lose weight' took her over a year. She is still fat but her back is all better.

She is a size 22.

However, a few years ago she trained in martial arts five days a week and the smallest she ever has been is a size 16. She is simply genetically pre-disposed to be bigger.

 

Now her and her hubby have a diet that makes me faint... not so much junk food as meat and lots of it plus lots of beer. her hubby is thin as a reed though he easily packs away as much as her. again, genetic pre-disposition is being quite kind to him.

 

all of my fat friends have struggled with incredible discrimination and stigma all their lives to the point where people will scream abuse at them on the street, or throw things at them.

 

THIS IS DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR. DISGUSTING. Although I suspect (hope) veganpotter was being sarcastic/ironic with his comment, some of the other stuff here is basically the same discrimination wrapped up in prettier words.

 

i promote healthy eating and exercise, a lot of my friends' diets (both fat and thin) disturb me and lack of physical activity and refusal to make good changes in their lives frustrates me, however i have no problems accepting the reality that some people are bigger, some are smaller and sometimes it doesn't matter how much exercise and healthy eating you do, you will simply be bigger.

likewise for some of the reedy slim guys who devour protein shakes and follow incredible diets to get bigger and just can't... they get fit, they get muscly, but they don't get big.

 

yes, many, many people are overweight and unhealthy because of their bad eating habits and sedentary lifestyle. however it is naieve and narrow-minded to think fatness=unhealthy automatically, which is basically all immy originally said.

 

fatphobia is a sickening by-product of our society's eating habits. by buying into it you continue to be bewitched by all the propoganda out there. as people who have chosen a healthier way of life, you should know better. contributing to the shame fat people feel constantly is completely counter-productive. giving them the tools to make better choices whilst acknowledging the diversity which is simply inherent to the human species has got to be a better way.

[princessbee]

I am obese and my diet is fruits, veggies, grains, and maybe a tablespoon of olive oil now and then for a veggie saute. Apart from popcorn and bread, and last week a bit of seitan, that's the most processed I get. I exercise at least 30 minutes every day; my favourite exercise activities are jogging and weightlifting, and I go to the gym almost every night (Sundays are the only day I don't go, though that's changing) and I go on the elliptical for 20 minutes, and usually I'll dance around in my room for 10+ minutes a day. I eat, on average, 1,900 calories a day.

 

Why am I still fat? I have no fucking clue. It's probably because all the years of dieting I did when I was younger have permanently changed my body's metabolism and made it harder for me to lose weight.

 

as an aside... perhaps get checked for gluten intolerance?

[9nines]

lmmy,

 

How many fruits do you eat?

 

Fruit calories can stealthily add-up pretty quickly. For example, Dr. McDougal (vegan diet) calls for little to no fruit intake during the initial period of the maximum weight loss part of his diet plan and sparingly afterwards.

 

Off Note: On the PCRM study on type 2 diabetes the vegan dieters lost 14 pounds on average and the ADA followers lost 7. So the weight loss difference was material.

[9nines]

Lmmy,

 

Thank you for sharing your personal situation because it helps me to understand the fallacy of generalizing even toward the majority.

 

You make very good points. All I can state is that my earlier perspective was coming from my opinion that our society is pushing what is overweight to higher amounts, to appease the vast majority of the growing overweight people in our society, the majority of which I think simply overeat. I agree that there are some that have heavy physiology and they are what they are and their stature and health should not be lumped with the majority that over eats.

 

With the growing weight increase in our society and the constant harping by most of society against a vegan diet, I tend to voice a bitterness toward the majority of heavy people, out of frustration. I feel very badly if anything I wrote was taken as an insult toward you.