compassionategirl

And by the time I was in college I had convinced my parents to go vegan too.

 

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You rock, man. Way to go!!

Hero,

YOu have the same spirit as did your Saint of choice, St. Francis, who not only befriended ALL creatures, but helped people. In case anybody isnt familiar with St. Francis, he was the patron saint of animals, AND he used to give everything he had (and I mean everything) to the poor and walk among the poor.

You remind me of him Toph.

If there were more people like you and others on this board in the world, it would be such a kinder, gentler, compassionate place.

Gym hater,

PLEASE DONT LET THEM OUTSIDE AT ALL WITHOUT YOU BEING RIGHT THERE TO PROTECT THEM. What a horrible way to die for a lil baby animal.

Why not just let them run around your home and bring grass inside? There is something called cat grass - you grow it in a pot and the cat eats it. You can grow grass for them inside in the same way.

I think the world out there is a dangerous place for guniea pigs, especially if your neighbours have predators lurking around.

Guys -

I was just joshin'. I luv all you guys too much to stay away, and I know you were just jokin Hero. That is why i used the wink emoticon - to try and convey that I know you were joking and to tell you i was just joshin back. sorry if my tone came across as serious.

I actualy have an exam in a week - so if I am scarce for a week, its not because of anything anybody said.

Its all in fun, good spirit and jokin.

Hi Sirdle -

I know you were jokin, that is why i put the wink emoticon to convey that I know you were jokin and that i too was kidding back.

Sometimes, I like to give you guys a hrd time by "twsiting your words" but always with good spirit and in a joiking way. Just ask Kollision - I gave him a hard time on my B-day thread just to kid around and make him sweat a lil. But he knows that i know that he was just jokin!

we all cool here, even if we yank chains a lil bit.

Keep the jokes comin'.

I might beat compassionategirl with how long this post is

.

What is this "pick on Natalie" week?

First Sirdle and now Hero?

i guess i will take a hiatus from here for a while then.

Compassion Girl OUT

(Watch out for compassionategirl, though, she'll talk your ear off .)

You asked me for info, I gave it to you in spades. Now your complaining?

I invest lots of time on this board with long posts full of information and insight because I care about people and animals.

On getting certified.

That is all I will say, since apparently I am notorious for long posts which have been noted by a few people already (but what can I say, I am fountain of information).

congratulations my friend.

How I react to someone often has a lot to do with how they treat me first. If I am met by an angry vegan (haven't seen any on this board), who accuses me of not caring about animals... of murder and torture... I would probably get all defensive and argue right back that animals don't have rights... they're just stupid animals that are here for us to use as we want. I am not saying that that is what I think, just that sometimes emotion kicks in first. Brendan's approach is calming and allows for the emotions to be held at bay until the mind can engage.

 

Good point Sirdle.

Oh my gosh i cannot believe what you described its shocking

I am not sure i understand. Why didnt the kid's own father want to seek justice for his son and expose the negligence of the surgeons who removed the only KIDNEY THAT THE BOY HAD? i why wouldnt he side with your gramps? it is thanks to your grandpa that they knew why their sone died. DONT GET IT. i am ed. That poor little boy's wrongful death was never "avenged" so to speak.

SEE HOW FUCKED UP SOCIETY IS - you take the side of justice, of goodness, of the weak and the voiceless, and its like the world wants to quash and silence you!!!

Evil and immorality continue to run rampant in socirty.

Nice guys finish first........I hope, because I fall into that category too!

I can assure you that that is true!

I think i am falling in luv with all of you...

PS. How cool of you to volunteer at the Wildlife rescue centre Dan!!

Hero, tell Rascal not to be such a little rascal next time (i am assuming he mulled the bunny?) I cannot believe how tiny the bunny was - he fit right into your hand. I hope he is doin okay out there in this big bad world

Nice pics lelle. thanks for sharing them with us.

P.S. I really like your hair style like that

Luckily for me my dad is very anti-fishing. .

That just made my day. Hug your dad for me.

ya, College - I want one of those juicers too!!

Sirdle, those facts you provide are amazing? He actually did ALL That stuff? Wow, how impressive.

Jack Lalane doesnt consume dairy - he was interiewed once on the powers of fresh home made juices and said:

"Nature intended milk for calves. Drink juice, as nature intended for us - not milk."

Honestly, my friend has that power juicer and it is awesome. After a lass of fresh juice, you can honestly feel your body saying "Awwww, thanks!!!!! That is what I need".

Everybody who can afford to should definitely get that juicer and start using it.

Fruits and veggies are truly nature's miracle / power foods.

Hey Damien,

I do think your avatar is cute by the way.

Just to be clear and so as not to mislead anybody, the "struggle to survive" is an example I gave that as you correctly point out, is not a universally accepted thing by all vegans. I dont presume to be speaking for all vegans here, and i am not even sure that I am speaking for myself. The point of this qualification was to reach some common ground and show that the "but animals eat meat so why cant we" excuse lacks logical coherence or moral relevance.

If I am stranded on an island, and I am going to have to kill and eat a cow to survive, I dont know if I would do it, because in my view, the animal has a right to his life as much as I have a right to my own life.

However, these types of arguments and sentiments are really not the point and distract from the very simple fact that should be acceptable to all honest and self-relfecting people:

killing animals for food when it is unnecessary to do so is wrong, immoral, bad, etc etc etc. ALL people should be able to agree on that. Now whether or not that is as far as you would go, or whether or not I would go even further - instead of focusing on what divides us, let us reach some common ground.

Actually, what I thought was a poor argument was the fact that compassionategirl suggested that because animals could not make moral decisions, they killed. The point I was trying to make is that it is not always about making moral decisions, but about the design of nature.

Well, to state that sometimes it is the design of nature is to state the obvious. Lions kill because they are natural carnivores and predators. Not because they are immoral. No kidding. How exactly does that justify the killing of an animal by one who is NOT designed to be a carnivore (i.e. a human), in circs that are not "a struggle to survive"?

Damien,

I dont understand what the point of considering a hypothetical that is never going to happen. Animals cannot make moral decisions, we can. And thus, we should. While there are many further flaws and silliniess about the irrational argument that "animals eat meat, so why shouldnt we?" that can be pointed out which havent already been done so, i am not going to dignify that frankly pathetic argument and defense of UNNECESSARY meat eating with a further answer. Sorry if that seems harsh.

Not only can we make moral decisions, WE are not designed physiologically to eat meat. This is supported by both common sense and anthropological evidence. If you are unaware of this evidence, I can point you to some sources.

Furthermore, you later in that post are AGAIN describing a situation wherein people dont have a choice - where it is hunt for food, or die of starvation. When we eat Turkey on Thanksgiving, you DO have a "choice". The choice not to eat Turkey and thereby the choice not pay the Turkey murderer and support the Turkey industry. I have repeatedly stated, rather clearly (or so i thought) that the UNECESSARY human killing for food is plainly and simply wrong/veil/morally culpable or whatever. I am really not a fan of getting hung up on semantics. The principle, the moral argument, is clearly there, and canot be diminished by semantic acrobatics.

BOTTOM LINE: Killing, murdering, animals for food when it is not necessary to do so for your own survival is unethical, immoral, wrong, bad, indefensible, inexcusable, evil, bad....take your pick. But i think the point is clear. Killing animals because you like to taste of their flesh is no more ethical or acceptable than killing animals because simply you like the feel of their fur and want it for your own back (again, not talking about a do or die situation here). There is no relevant difference.

I am not picking on you, for the record, and I have tremendous respect for your ENTIRE vegan family. Although I wish your veganism was also motivated by ethical/animal reasons, in which case, I dont think you would see Thanksgiving turkey as a treat. I know you never described eating Turkey as a treat, but you said you are a vegan who eats it in Thanksgiving, so hence, the idea that maybe you see Thanksgiving Turkey as a treat?

at any rate, you are vegan - which is the bottom line and the most important thing. And no, you havent lost any friends or credibility. heck, if everybody cut each other off because they did not agree with something that that person said, how could any progress be made? It is critical to keep the debate ongoing, but i must admit i do get frustrated with irrational, pathetic excuses which are offered as an 'argument' in defense of eating animals when one neednt do so to survive.

peace

Editted to add: I see your post in which you acknowledge that humans arent designed for meat, a belief that is obviously reflected in your whole lifestyle and the lifestyle you have chosen for your family. So please ignore that part of my post.

I must say that I give a great deal more gravity to the word "evil" than apparently others here do, but I do not hesitate to tell people that I come into contact with, and therefore have the same resources available to them as I, that eating animals is wrong. Undeniably, indefensiby wrong. No matter the intellect or education level, the response always boils down to either "I don't agree," or "I don't care." Neither are defenses.

 

You don't need flesh to survive, ergo you are killing simply out of selfishness, ergo you are doing wrong.

 

Animals kill each other.

 

Therefore, animals are evil?

 

 

This question always annoys me. You should know, and probably do, that non-human animals are not capable of making moral decisions.

Exactly!!!!!

 

Eating animals, or plants for that matter, involves the killing of living things

the difference between animal life (both homo sapien and other) and plant life is sentience.

snuffing the life of another who doesnt want you to is murder.

Killing in self-defense is still murder, but it is "justified" under the circumstances and thus isnt morally culpable murder.

If I am attacked by a bear and I defend myself by killing if that is what it must come down to, then I have murdered the bear or the robber or the rapist or whatever, but it is not morally wrong because it was in self defense.

Eating animals requires murder that is not morally justifiable. Even if they are murdered humanely. Selfish, self-indulgent reasons are not ethical reasons.

i think the difference between the situation of an animal killing an animal and a human killing an animal when such a killing is not a life or death struggle is self-evident, and at any rate, it has been touched on above. Not sure why you are not seeing it.

Murder is evil. Do you agree?

 

Good.

 

Eating animals is murder.

Generally, it really IS as simple as Michael puts it - whether we like to admit that to ourselves or not.

This is going to crack Ash right up - trust me!