compassionategirl

July 23, 2005

And just to add to Jonathan's numbers which really put things into perspective: In one year alone, WAY more animals are repeatedly raped and murdered than the number of the entire human population.

Jon, while I repsect your views, I think to say that we are giving persecuted people's of the past and present the "indignity" of comparing them to "animals" is an insult to animals. It suggests that animal suffering is somehow more acceptable or justified.

If we really want to call a spade a spade, then I would go so far as to argue that GENERALLY, humans arent entirely morally innocent (obviously this excludes children and certain other groups) and animals ARE. Thus, arguably, animal suffering, because animals are so innocent and voiceless, is even more appalling. This is of couse going to outrage any speciest that is reading this. But frankly, the truth hurts.

Jonathan: I disagree with your view that animals cannot experience "dread". Just look at abused animals - they cower from fear when approached by humans and they "dread" humans. YOu can see the dread in their eyes and we should be careful before we make statements about what animals can and cannot feel, because quite frankly, i dont think humans have even scratched that surface. For the longest time, it was believed to be a self-evident truth that fish feel no pain. WE now know that this "truth" has been called into question at the very least.

AS far as the ability to think in terms of the future, or the concept of future, you suggest that animals cannot do this only people can BUT I actually read an article recently that showed the capacity to in fact do so among chickens. I wish I could locate this article - if I do, i will post it here.

peace

July 23, 2005

suffering is still suffering, whether it a chicken or a human, and in my view, animals have suffered far more under the hand of man than all the humans who have died in wars/persecution.

jonathan[/i]

Exactly!!! And any pyshcological or mental resistance to that sentiment is, in my opinion, socially constructed and a residue of the brainwashing that society has done to us. Thank goodness I was able to "de-brainwash myself" and critically challenge and question what society tells us is a self-evident "Truth."

July 23, 2005

Just when I thought I had seen it all, I saw another stupid as commercial last night that really PISSES me off. Not only is it not enough for the dairy industry to rip calves away from their mothers teets after hours of being born so we humans can drink the milk that the calves long for, etc. etc,. the dairy industry has the NERVE to make a commercial in which a whole bunch of cows are "protesting" for their "rights". Yup, you read that corrrectly. The preposterous and appalling and utterly unethical commercial shows a bunch of brown cows with people, all protesting the "rights of brown" cows. The commercial is for a cholcoate milk commercial and the "rights" that these cows and people are demonstrating for is the right for "cholcoate milk" to be recognized as "nutritious" as white milk. And, as if that whole ridiculous and enraging scenario was not bad enough, the commercial ends with a real cow, who mouth is digitally manipulated so that it looks like the cow is speaking, and the cow says: "I am a brown cow and I APPROVE this message."!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can you beleive that? How could people not see the utter unethicalness of an industry who uses the animal itself to sell a message of torture and and abuse. AS if the dairy cows would ever "approve" of having countless babies only to be separated them so people can enjoy chocolate milk. AS if they would ever be approved as being treated as nothing more than a milk machine, pumping out milk for all their miserable and sad and lonely lives, until they cannot produce milk anymore so they get dragged to slaughter to end up in a McDonalds cheeseburger. Dairy cows are often so exhausted at the end of their milk providing existences that they literally have to be dragged in chains to the slaughterhouse, and "downers" - the weakest of them all who literally no longer have the energy to even stand up after years of having so many babies just to be pumped and pumped for milk - are often just left to die a slow and miserable death.

Commercials that actually use food animals to sell their own death and suffering are ing and REALLY bring home how unethical these industries are. They are insulting to televsion viewers too - how stupid do they think we are that we would actually believe that a dairy cow WANTS people to drink milk so she can be condemned to a miserable and exploitative existence?

Give me a freakin break!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

editted to add: and using these animals in these commercials this way further brainwashes children into thinking animals are perfectly happy with the way society treats them, since they, unlike adults with half a brain, cannot be critical observers of what they see and filter propoganda from truth.

July 23, 2005

I think the holocaust on your plate campaign was a very insightful one. Many people are not aware that the concentration camps of Hitler were actually DESIGNED on slaughetrhouse arhcitecture. Furtehrmore, the number of animals killed in history and the number of people killed I think are quite comparable, since every year BILLIONS of animals are brutally murdered. So the quantity - the numbers, that is - I am sure are comparable. However, some of you may think that one human life may be the same quantitavely as one animal life, but you "cannot compare human lives to animal lives because humans are more precious." Well, I reject that. That's speciecism and what largely perpetuates the animal killing edifices. In my opinion, the life of a lamb is no less precious and valuable than the life of a human.

Furthermore, as an Armenian whose relatives were slaughtered in the Armenian Genocide of 1915 in Turkey, I have some more thoughts about genocide and institutionalized animal abuse that I would like to share. Over 1.5 million of my people were slaughtered in 1915 by the Turks, including women, pregnant women and children. This genocide was made possible and fueled, as are most genocides, by that "us versus them", "they are not like us, they are different from us, and therefore they are inferior" attitude. The Turks in Turkey at that time looked down upon Armenians as inferior beings and justified the mass atrocities committed against the Armenians based on that "inferiority" bull shit. And, it is that same "They are not like us, they are inferior" attitude that continues to justify the institutionalized mass abuse of animals in factory farms and laboratories. As an Armenian who lost family in the 1915 genocide, I can tell you that I am not offended by campaigns that compare the slaughter of human beings to the slaughter of animals. Rather, what offends me and appalls me is violence perpetrated against any innocent and sentient being. I think that many people misinterpret these campaigns, and I do not blame them because the subject is highly emotive. But, people should just really calm down and get past that initial impulse / reflex to be appauled and offended by the dreaded comparison of animls to people, and really analyze the message. That message, the way I interpret it, is not that the life of an animal is worth more, or is equal to, the life of a human animal.

So PETA's holocaust on your plate campaign is not likening my murdered grandad to chicken, and this interpretation misses the point. Rather, the message of the Holocaust campign is this: both humans and animals do have an EQUAL capacity for feeling physical pain and suffering. So it is not that a chicken life is equal in worth to a human life - it is that a chicken has an EQUAL capacity to suffer as does a human.

This statement of fact is hardly incorrect, controversial, or offensive.

But, of course, meat eaters will look for any excuse to knock organizations like PETA and ar people, and thus had a field day with PETA's holocaust campaign. But that is not indicative of the fallacy of that campaign - rather, it is sadly indicative of people's speciesist attitudes and refusal to attach any significance to non - human suffering.

Again, as an Armenian whose people were slaughtered, I recognize the dangers and fallacy of the "they are different and therefore inferior" mentality, and I call upon all human beings to reject that notion and its concomitant dangerous implications. It is a mentality that has been used and is still used to justify genocides, slavery, terrorist attacks, etc. and it is an evil which is like cancer in the world. I therefore get extra frustrated and enraged when I see Armenians or indeed any formerly or currently oppressed and disempowerd groups wearing fur or eating meat because animals are by far the most oppressed and disempowered class of beings out there!!! So, as a disadvantaged and formerly slaughtered people, never mind sympathy, where is our empathy? That is why that article from that "feminist " bitch that I posted on the board really pissed me off. She should be ashamed herself, as a "leader" in social justice and progressive causes, to have that kind of ignorrant attitude towards animals and to prmote hatred towards vegans, as she tries to do in that article. Its ing and inexcusable.

The fact of the matter is, when you eat meat, there is a holocaust on your plate. The word holocaust is not reserved for only human life, so meat eaters should get over your speciecism just for one second- long enough to understand what that message is really trying to convey: animals in factory farms and in slaugherhouses suffer as much as my grandfather did back in 1915 ON A DAILY BASIS for all their lives. They have just as much capacity to do so as my grandpa did. This is hardly controversial newsflash.

Few people realize that that the holocaust slogan was actually borrowed from Isaac Bashevis Singer, a jewish person who was also impacted by the Holocaust. SInger is the one that first said, something like "When I see people eating meat, I see a Holocaust on their plate."

In short, what should offend us is not the comparison, but violence perpetrated against innocent and undeserving and defenseless and sentient beings, both human and non. period. Cruelty to a chicken should be no less acceptable than cruelty to a human. if you accept that, then I dont see how or why the "dreaded comparison" is so offensive to you.

My own people in the ARmenian genocide and the Jweish people in the Jewish genocide were herded into boxcars like "cattle", and, like the animals, who are transported to their deaths, the people also thirsted and had no water. They hungered,, and had no food. And they had no room to move; no way to rest. And they had no way of avoiding living in the midst of their own waste. Yet, there has been no hint of compassion for these other sentient beings, who continue to be treated as widgets in a widget factory. With very few exceptions, there has been no attempt to undertstand the moral/ethical relationship between a claim that animals can be tormented and slaughtered in the best interests of the human race and the Nazi claim that prinsoners were brutalized and murdered because that served the best interests of an emerging "super race."

Like I said above, one of those who did understand this relationship was Nobel prize winner Isaac Bashevis Singer, the person from whom PETA borrowed the holocaust comparison. Singer wrote: "As long as human beings go on shedding the blood of animals, there will never be any peace. There is only one little step from killing animals to creating gas chambers a la Hitler and concentration camps a la Stalin. There will be no justice as long as man will stand with a knife or gun and destroy those who are weaker than he is."

I wholeheartedly and emphatically agree. I wish people would get over themselves long enough to see the wisdom and insight in that sentiment.

having said all that, I go back to a point that College B or Will had raised - the animals dont need us to be right, they need us to be effective. So no matter how truthful or insightful a campaign slogan is, if its gonna alienate people from the cause of animals rights even more, then it hasnt served its purpose and has actually hurt the animals' cause. That is not what we want to do obviously.

July 23, 2005

Gym hater,

there is nothing to be confused out about this:

a vegan lifestyle causes LESS suffering than a carnivorous one. Nobody would claim that veganism = no suffering whatsoever. But thats not the point. If you walk on the ground then chances are you accidentally step on ants, etc. The point is not to be perfect - that is virtually impossible. The point is to choose a lifetsyle that causes the LEAST amount of suffering. Veganism = a LOT less suffering for other living things and the environment. period. end of story. nothing to be confused about.

July 23, 2005

July 23, 2005

ya Will is right - these should be allowed, and at any rate, I am sure you can find Wise's stuff in law journals - which would definitely count.

July 23, 2005

thanks for posting that Brendan

July 23, 2005

thanks guys

July 22, 2005

thanks Dan and Michael. Will look into it and thanks for those links (although I dont live in the States - but maybe they can still be helpful. thanks!!

July 22, 2005

wait....your teacher wont you use any books College B? I am confused.

July 22, 2005

i asked him that specific question and he said no. how can I be sure he isnt lying?

July 22, 2005

oh my god if this turns out as good as it sounds then WICKED because I have been dying for rich fude frosting i am salivating as i type this

July 21, 2005

hey college

if I knew that it wasnt a scam, the the cost wouldnt matter to me either -but the point is that i dont know if its a scam.

my dad has tried everything - traditonal docs say that there is nothing else that can be done. that is why i am hoping that this chinese herbalist doctor is for real.

will post the details tonight

July 21, 2005

not sure. i am going to get the exact name and the ingredients and post them here for all yours opinions and scrutiny.

thnaks - this is obviously a life or death situation.

July 21, 2005

Does anybody have any knowledge or experience with the ability or effectiveness of Chinese herbal medicine in the helping (not necessarily totally curing) cancer? There is this product that this chinese herbalist guy says can help reduce cancer (but not necessarily leiminate it 100%) and it costs like 20 bucks a day and one would have to use it for 2 months to see results. Not sure if there can be any truth to these claims or they are a scam - i know nothing about Chinese medicine so i would appreciate it if you all can share any knowledge or experience about this with me.

And no, I dont have cancer. It is for somebody else that I am inquiring.

thanks in advance

July 21, 2005

Hey College!

That's great that your prof is encouring you to pursue this presentation! Definietly take advantage of her willingness to help you develop the framework further.

Thanks so much for choosing to use this as an opportunity to educate people a little more on the exploitative and abusive relationship that humans have with animals. Maybe you will impact some people and get them thinking about issues they never really put their minds to before!!!!

Thanks again and good luck. Let us know if you need anthing.

July 21, 2005

Cool!!!

maybe you guys could hook up some time on the weekend.

I wish we all lived closer together. That would rock.

July 21, 2005

Hi Foxy!

Wow that is one long name you got there!

I am THRILLED that you have decided to stop eating violence and death - tonight you decided to make the official commitment?! WOW - that is so exciting. Your like a newborn person (meaning you have a whole new level of conscious awareness). That is awesome and I am thrilled that you have found this site. Just look at all the smokin bods that were done the cruelty-free way - now THAT is an accomplishment in my opinion.

Great to have you here.

You know, today, after reading so much anti-animal kindness propoganda, I was feeling really down and hopeless and sad for the animals that continue to suffer and be raped and die out of our sight beind closed doors of factory farms etc. But after having read your intro and that TODAY you have began your new cruelty-free life, it just made things better, there was hope again for a kinder world all of a sudden

. So THANKS Foxy, your timing was perfect!!

By the way I like your signature quote. I use something very similar - it goes "One cannot speak of peace with a mouthful of victims of violence."

July 21, 2005

Hi taylor,

It would be great if you could email that too her. And I am sorry but how could something so ignorant call herself a feminist and be involved with Justice For Women. I havent been this sickened by something that I have read in a long time, and this b$#tch needs to be given the facts about the link between diet and world hunger. and fir her to not know the environemntally devastating effects of raising animals for food - well, all i can say is what planet is she from?

To everybody: please send this woman polite responses about your experiences and support them with facts.

July 21, 2005

Okay, here is the product that should be featured this week. It is propoganda, that is going to try to brian wash people and mislead them about modern animal agriculture. The info below contains the details. Please read this and write to your local stations immediately and ask them to REFUSE to air this propaganda. YOu can find information on who to contact in your area by clicking on the link at the end of the article. The animals NEED us on this one big time - please make this your activism of the week, please. We cannot allow false information to be spread about how great factory farmed animals really have it - this is a travesty and will just encourage people to eat more animals. We need to start contacting stations NOW and stay on top of this by following up with them after that.

Dear Activist,

The factory-farming industry, including agribusiness giant Monsanto and the American Farm Bureau (a front group for corporate agriculture), has collaborated with a California public television network to produce a TV series called America’s Heartland. The show’s producers claim that they will profile “the people, places, and processes of today’s agribusiness.” But if the show’s trailer and the show’s predecessor, California’s Heartland, are any indication, America’s Heartland will do its best to mislead viewers about the true nature of the modern meat, egg, and dairy industries.

The show’s trailer creates the illusion that farmed animals are raised on small, idyllic farms where they are given plenty of space and fresh air. In reality, the vast majority of animals raised for food in the United States suffer immeasurably on huge, industrial factory farms, where they are confined and mutilated before being violently killed. The corporate sponsors of America’s Heartland are very concerned about the growing public outrage surrounding the abuse of animals on modern factory farms. These companies have already shelled out more than a million dollars to produce this show, all in an effort to trick Americans about the way farmed animals are treated.

Monsanto and the American Farm Bureau are offering the show to 300 U.S. public television stations this fall. Please politely ask your local public station to refuse to air America’s Heartland and other agribusiness propaganda. Find the contact information for your station by going here:

http://www.pbs.org/stationfinder/index.html

July 21, 2005

This is what she says - i figured i would just post it here. I am beyind appalled. I will post my response to her on here so you all can read it. But what I want to know is how to you contact this newspaper?

Why I hate vegetarians

People should not be bullied into giving up meat by humourless, judgmental souls using spurious arguments

Julie Bindel

Monday June 13, 2005

The Guardian

Eating in a meat-free restaurant the other day made me realise why I hate vegetarians. The food, unlike the tasteless, bland rubbish often served up in such places, was delicious. Unusually for meatless cuisine, it had flavour and texture, and had even been seasoned. What was unpalatable were the customers and waiting staff, all of whom seemed to believe that what they were eating made them superior. They all looked smug and self-satisfied. It brought it home to me that most vegetarians - and I am largely excluding those who eschew meat for religious and cultural reasons - give themselves a bad name. They are better than you, don't you know? The atmosphere in the restaurant was one of pompous aloofness. I left with indigestion.

Article continues

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People often assume I don't eat meat, because I am a feminist and vaguely of the left. I have turned up at dinner parties to find the host has assumed that at least one guest would be vegetarian, and served undercooked baked potatoes. What an atrocity! Why can they not put a chicken in the oven at the same time? Or is the sight of meat so offensive to veggies that they would pass out at the table?

Recent converts can be the worst. I have lost friends to the cult who, once they get fed the mantra from the militants, become something akin to ex-smokers. I am tired of feeling self-conscious in restaurants when ordering meat in front of them. No one should deny that factory-farmed animals are kept in the most appalling conditions, and that eating too much meat is bad for you. But look at their claims. Crusaders promote vegetarianism not only as healthy but as a solution to world hunger and a safeguard of the planet.

Do not assume living without animal products is always a positive, healthy choice. A vegan couple in American have recently been charged with child abuse for malnourishing their three small children. They had been brought up on a vegan diet from birth. There have been similar cases where children, who cannot choose what they eat, have had their health severely damaged because of their parents' principles. They are putting the welfare of animals before that of their children. Giving up meat and dairy has been linked to anorexia and other eating disorders in teenage girls. Lack of vitamin B12, found mainly in meats, eggs, dairy and fish, can cause brain damage. Most vegans, and some non-meat-eaters, have to supplement their diet with pills. In the developed world, vegetarianism is a privileged choice. How many working-class vegetarians do you know? It is not an option for most poor people in this country.

A veggie colleague once said of a woman with her three young children in a supermarket, "Have you seen those cheap beefburgers and pies she's feeding them? Why does she not go to the market, buy some fresh vegetables and make them all some nice, healthy soup?" Again that assumption that vegetarian and vegan foods are cheaper, which they are not, and that the mother had all the time in the world to prepare food from scratch.

Let's get our priorities right. People who put foxes and lambs before people do not have my vote. Animal liberationists blowing up scientists for conducting experiments that might lead to a cure for cancer are odious. There are more refuge spaces for cats than there are for women and their children fleeing domestic violence. While rape crisis centres are closing due to lack of funds, animal charities are raking it in.

Although vegetarianism is often seen as a "women's issue", there is a nasty, misogynistic wing that relies on sexist images and messages to convince people that meat is murder. People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (Peta) are the worst offenders. One of their early adverts features a woman dragging a fur coat behind her. She is captioned as a "dumb animal". Another has a woman having her fur coat ripped off in the street and clubbed to death by a man, to make the point that it is not nice to be killed for your coat. The actor who played Lolita in the 1997 remake became "the youngest star to pose naked for Peta's anti-fur campaign". The message is: treat women, not animals, like meat.

Those who think we should not eat meat because all life is sacred are naive. Would they be happy allowing mosquitoes to spread malaria, or having rats run loose in their home? Not all creatures are equal. There are natural hierarchies in the food chain.

People should be allowed to make their own choices and not be bullied or frightened into giving up meat. In the US recently, children in a secondary school were taken by their teachers to a slaughterhouse to show them how animals are killed for food. This tactic is a form of mind control, as unethical as discouraging young girls from having sex by making them watch a difficult childbirth.

I may hate vegetarians because they make me feel guilty, or because, meat being so delicious, they must have lots of willpower. But as an animal lover who agrees in principle with most reasons for giving up meat, I would rather not join that band of humourless, judgmental souls. It would seem that you are indeed what you eat.

· Julie Bindel is the founder of Justice for Women

[email protected]

July 21, 2005

Here is what this ignorrant woman says. If you do write to her, please ensure that your letter does not prove her right!