So when people say you need weights for mass....

[GRardB]

Is that true?

 

 

That video is insane...I never would've thought that to be possible.

 

Any thoughts?

[xjohanx]

it's an exact replica of that ruff ryders thing. i don't remember the title. i would say that most of them are on roids.

however i do believe you can build a lot of mass with your bw, just look at gymnasts. i just think that you need to spend about 5 hours a day in the gym.

[DV]

Cool video but I think it's a bit misleading. I'm sure that the exercises shown don't account for all of the exercises they've ever done. Even in the ghetto you can find a buddy who has a weight bench and some weights. I bet that if you talked to the men in the video they would tell you that they have access to some free weights and equipment.

[veganmaster]

Body weight exercises can be made as difficult as you like by adjusting leverage, etc. - simply put it is the muscle contraction that increases protein synthesis, and even static isometrics has been proven to increase PS. Although increasing protein synthesis via muscle contraction slightly increases net protein deposition it is total energy intake that is still the major factor in muscle gain (ratio of the macronutrients is the another minor one). So all people with impressive, supranormal amounts of muscle have 1 thing in common: overfeeding, either intentional or because of a naturally large appetite. When people call themselves "hardgainers" what they are noticing are differences in appetite, not a failure of exercise to stimulate protein synthesis! Metabolism is physics, and the basic

physics of energy are extremely similar for all people - if you eat more energy than burn you will increase your stores of protein, fat, and carbs. If you took a obese American and put him on a PSMF (Protein-Sparing Modified Fast), he would eventually gain definition and everyone would see the bodybuilder's body hidden under the fat. While muscle contraction presses down the accelerator a bit, we should remember that the fastest growth in LBM comes via overfeeding diets very high in kcal. People regularly put on 1/3-1/2 lb of LBM per DAY without any exercise at all in overfeeding studies.

[GRardB]

Body weight exercises can be made as difficult as you like by adjusting leverage, etc. - simply put it is the muscle contraction that increases protein synthesis, and even static isometrics has been proven to increase PS. Although increasing protein synthesis via muscle contraction slightly increases net protein deposition it is total energy intake that is still the major factor in muscle gain (ratio of the macronutrients is the another minor one). So all people with impressive, supranormal amounts of muscle have 1 thing in common: overfeeding, either intentional or because of a naturally large appetite. When people call themselves "hardgainers" what they are noticing are differences in appetite, not a failure of exercise to stimulate protein synthesis! Metabolism is physics, and the basic

physics of energy are extremely similar for all people - if you eat more energy than burn you will increase your stores of protein, fat, and carbs. If you took a obese American and put him on a PSMF (Protein-Sparing Modified Fast), he would eventually gain definition and everyone would see the bodybuilder's body hidden under the fat. While muscle contraction presses down the accelerator a bit, we should remember that the fastest growth in LBM comes via overfeeding diets very high in kcal. People regularly put on 1/3-1/2 lb of LBM per DAY without any exercise at all in overfeeding studies.

 

Question:

 

I've been reading your posts lately and you seem to believe in things concerning diet/exercise that many people don't agree with. I don't know what to believe, but you seem to have lots of scientific explanations for what you believe and it seems logical.

 

My question is: Are you a scientist? I always read about how you "do studies" and stuff like that. I'm just curious. Your methods seem promising, though.

[offense74]

Don't try that at home, you will dislocate all yo' shit!!

Respect!!

[Richard]

Cool

[xjohanx]

Don't try that at home, you will dislocate all yo' shit!!

Respect!!

 

[veganmaster]

Question:

 

I've been reading your posts lately and you seem to believe in things concerning diet/exercise that many people don't agree with. I don't know what to believe, but you seem to have lots of scientific explanations for what you believe and it seems logical.

 

My question is: Are you a scientist? I always read about how you "do studies" and stuff like that. I'm just curious. Your methods seem promising, though.

 

Though my degree is in English, my "self-taught" expertise is in nutritional science, with a focus on metabolism. I have done many thousands of hours of studying the calorimetry metabolism studies, which are studies which directly measure the release of gases from people (& this can accurately measure changes in oxidation rates of macronutrients). The thing is, the truth is not very popular, especially in mainstream views on nutrition. The way the body processes fuel is very well understood by a handful of specialists - yet the scientific specialist is always at risk of myopia, missing the big picture. Me, I love digging into the science, studying, and then connecting the dots. For example I have compiled data from dozens of overfeeding and macronutrient studies in order to understand how what macronutrients creates the best recomposition. I compared the amount of net protein gain per day, the kcal surplus, fat gained per day, ratio of P/CHO/F, and even some ratios I made up myself, like the BCS (Body Composition Score). I've been studying nutrition for the entire 11 years I've been vegan, but it is during the last few since I've gotten obsessed with metabolism and recomposition that I've really learned exactly how things work. I'm not a scientist, but I use the scientific method without zero regard for popular thought. The truth is often out there, but rarely is the big picture understood, because of specialization. Science has elucidated clearly the way energy processing occurs in us primate herbivores. It shows us exactly why disease grows when we eat the wrong fuel, and it shows us exactly what diet is most useful for muscle gain and fat minimization: very high CHO, very low fat. It seems to me that important truths are too nuanced to make it to pop culture, instead oversimplified if not inaccurate memes flourish. Thus everyone must ask where vegans "get their protein/calcium/whatever," despite the inherent foolishness of these questions, since both epidemiological, biological, & genetic evidence shows us to be herbivores who get sick when fed much carnivore fuel.

 

Metabolism science is pretty much unknown, so much so that people think low-fat starches like potatoes can make you fat by themselves, when the science shows the exact opposite, like the studies on pasta showing that despite eating 1600 kcal of pasta does not cause fat conversion (simple sugars are more likely to do this though). Protein is another area of misinformation. Just reading the results from studies I've referenced in my posts here should be enough to make people realize that eating hundreds of grams of protein a day can be counterproductive, and that replacing much of it with carbs instead will cause greater net muscle gain via spiking insulin and thus retaining more Nitrogen.

I want to write articles about all these topics, and I want to create several specific programs for my blog, but it may be awhile, since I want to make it very clear and very data-heavy, because the science is robust, IMO.

Edited July 14, 2008 by veganmaster

[VeganEssentials]

Cool video but I think it's a bit misleading. I'm sure that the exercises shown don't account for all of the exercises they've ever done. Even in the ghetto you can find a buddy who has a weight bench and some weights. I bet that if you talked to the men in the video they would tell you that they have access to some free weights and equipment.

 

I think you've hit the nail on the head. ANYTHING selling a service or product for fitness has to be looked at with a pretty solid degree of skepticism when it comes to believing that the people pushing the product built their physiques with that thing alone. It's much like when you see a commercial for a Bowflex or something similar - you can't expect that these people who are shown using it built their physique competition-ready bodies simply by using that one piece of equipment. Of course, if you're selling something that people want to use to look better, put in people that have the look they want even if they didn't achieve it via the product/program being shown. Just like how an out-of-shape trainer at the gym will likely get nowhere near as many clients as a person who is in excellent shape even if they're a better trainer, people are drawn toward what they want to look like.

 

I think that the greatest example in the video is the big guy (the one who has about 50+ lbs. on the guys doing the exercises) who seems to be the "host" of the clip - there's no way he's built his size simply by doing the exercises being shown. Based on how he looks, I'd eat my hat if it was proven that he's only done bodyweight work to get where he is. He may not be as lean as the others, but nevertheless, I guarantee that he has done plenty of weight training, and it's quite likely that the guys who are doing the exercise demonstrations have done so as well.

 

Bodyweight training alone can build a good physique, but there are limitations to how far it will take you, and more often than not, people who tout it as being so wonderful have also spent plenty of time building their base in the gym before they became the messiahs of bodyweight-only workouts.

[Gyre]

I am also under the idea that you can get a great deal of mass without the use of weights. Thanks for the numbers veganmaster. I would agree it is what you put in that yields the results. I was eating bags and bags of nuts and seeds and beans and I am quite sure I was as large as most of the builders here. I also worked out three to five hours a day throughout the day and ate constantly.

[GRardB]

Cool video but I think it's a bit misleading. I'm sure that the exercises shown don't account for all of the exercises they've ever done. Even in the ghetto you can find a buddy who has a weight bench and some weights. I bet that if you talked to the men in the video they would tell you that they have access to some free weights and equipment.

 

I think you've hit the nail on the head. ANYTHING selling a service or product for fitness has to be looked at with a pretty solid degree of skepticism when it comes to believing that the people pushing the product built their physiques with that thing alone. It's much like when you see a commercial for a Bowflex or something similar - you can't expect that these people who are shown using it built their physique competition-ready bodies simply by using that one piece of equipment. Of course, if you're selling something that people want to use to look better, put in people that have the look they want even if they didn't achieve it via the product/program being shown. Just like how an out-of-shape trainer at the gym will likely get nowhere near as many clients as a person who is in excellent shape even if they're a better trainer, people are drawn toward what they want to look like.

 

I think that the greatest example in the video is the big guy (the one who has about 50+ lbs. on the guys doing the exercises) who seems to be the "host" of the clip - there's no way he's built his size simply by doing the exercises being shown. Based on how he looks, I'd eat my hat if it was proven that he's only done bodyweight work to get where he is. He may not be as lean as the others, but nevertheless, I guarantee that he has done plenty of weight training, and it's quite likely that the guys who are doing the exercise demonstrations have done so as well.

 

Bodyweight training alone can build a good physique, but there are limitations to how far it will take you, and more often than not, people who tout it as being so wonderful have also spent plenty of time building their base in the gym before they became the messiahs of bodyweight-only workouts.

 

Yeah, you guys are probably right. I'm sure they also might take roids, as xjohanx said. I guess I got so caught up in being amazed with what they were doing and how they looked that I didn't think of any of that lmao. Although I can say that out of all the "hoods" I've been in (Newark, Jersey City, NYC [namely The Bronx], Detroit, etc.) I've never seen anybody working out at a bus stop or on street lights.

[VeganEssentials]

Yeah, you guys are probably right. I'm sure they also might take roids, as xjohanx said. I guess I got so caught up in being amazed with what they were doing and how they looked that I didn't think of any of that lmao. Although I can say that out of all the "hoods" I've been in (Newark, Jersey City, NYC [namely The Bronx], Detroit, etc.) I've never seen anybody working out at a bus stop or on street lights.

 

Like I said, there's no question that you can build a great physique on bodyweight work alone, but there's a big difference between looking like one of those guys and looking like you could even crack the top 100 in the Mr. Olympia.

 

For someone who simply wants to add a little to a moderate amount of size and definition, doing dips/chins/push-ups/sit-ups/etc. will do quite well. However, it's all relative to the end goal - pretty well nobody is going to add 50 lbs. or more of lean mass over their training "career" simply by doing those things, so for anyone looking to get big enough to where people will see them and think "Holy sh*t, that guy's HUGE!", then there are much better ways to do it. And, just as well, there's a converse factor to changing direction with training w/ bodyweight to free weights and vice-versa, in that people who get strong with weight training often have a superior advantage when trading off for bodyweight work, yet, everyone I've known who started with a bodyweight program and moved to weights afterward was shocked by how much more difficult it is and did not see as big of a carryover as they'd expected. Of course, there are some people that are exceptions to the norm, but for the most part, almost everyone is going to find that it's a lot harder to handle training with weights coming in from bodyweight while the other way around makes it much easier.

 

Again, not knocking bodyweight stuff, but in some respects, it is inferior to weight training for some goals. Aside from the fact that there are lots of things that do not get trained well via bodyweight work, it's a good way to go if someone wants to train for free or if they have modest goals and aren't looking to become extremely large or strong. I'll always strongly question leg training via bodyweight because, frankly, there's a world of difference between doing 1-legged bodyweight squats (even with resistance in one hand) and having a double-bodyweight-or-greater barbell draped over your back for squatting. I've met guys who wanted to try and show me up by doing a set of pistols, thinking that they were doing the ultimate in leg work, only for me to put them to the test and watch as they couldn't squat bodyweight to parallel for one single rep. The ultimate mission should be to have good strength in ALL areas, so perhaps a combination of bodyweight AND weight training could be best.

 

Nevertheless, the final thing I have to say about the video is that it does show that you can ALWAYS get a decent workout in, even if you think you've got nowhere good to train. It does a pretty good job of shooting down the excuse of anyone saying that they can't train without a gym membership, so in that respect, I give them a thumbs-up! Wouldn't know about them taking any steroids, though - I've seen plenty of guys with good, solid physiques that don't do more than train hard, eat a ton and get plenty of rest, so anything's possible. I just doubt that they got to looking the way they do from ONLY doing bodyweight stuff on the playground and street corners without ever having touched weights before

[seitan_man]

I work with a guy who has recently left the military and he is one of those people that you think 'Holy Shit, his arms are huge!' I was very surprised when he was discussing training and getting in shape with someone the other week and mentioned that he never lifted weights, he build all his muscles through bodyweight exercises, specifically chin ups and press ups. I sincerely doubt he ever touched steroids either. He doesn't seem to be well 'defined' and sculpted like a bodybuilder but he is a big guy and is as strong as an ox.