to much protein?

[DV]

Well, if we're going to get into a scientific knowledge pissing contest - let's just say I win, but I'm not going to give you my entire resume. And I'm not convinced that raw foodism is healthier than all other diets. I've enjoyed loads of energy and glowing skin as a whole foods omnivore and a whole foods vegan (that one month I was exclusively raw wasn't bad either).

 

By the way, it's customary to eat salad after the main course in Italy. Those Italians can't even get food combining straight!

[Im Your Man]

Well, if we're going to get into a scientific knowledge pissing contest - let's just say I win, but I'm not going to give you my entire resume. And I'm not convinced that raw foodism is healthier than all other diets. I've enjoyed loads of energy and glowing skin as a whole foods omnivore and a whole foods vegan (that one month I was exclusively raw wasn't bad either).

 

By the way, it's customary to eat salad after the main course in Italy. Those Italians can't even get food combining straight!

I won't say anything about the conservative schools you went to and the detritivore teachers you listened to for years, but I find it pretty sad that you don't see any improvement in your health when switching from a necrophagous diet to a vegan diet. Must be all the gluten from the seitan you eat and the 180 grams of proteins/day that keeps you as tired as when you were eating corpses.

[RawVgn]

I certainly agree your diet is far superior to the SAD, but it's no great achievement being healthy at your age. The detrimental effects of excessive protein consumption (and most dietary toxemias), like arthritis and osteoporosis and cancer, often don't appear for decades. I see 20 yr old omnivores everyday who look good on the outside. Many of them are awesome athletes, but I know their arteries are already building up plaque from their cholesterol laden diets. Many of them are little more than Jim Fixs waiting for judgement day. Plenty of scientific evidence indicates that eating a high protein diet is playing with fire. Just because the body requires a small amount of protein to thrive, doesn't mean more of it is better. Too much can be as bad, or worse, than too little.

 

And unlike someone, I never said anyone who disagrees with Natural Hygiene is scientifically incompetent.

[RawVgn]

Ahhh, the old vegan standby complaint...chronic fatigue. Complex carbohydrates and proteins are very poor energy sources; they require almost as much energy to reduce down to monosacharides for eventual oxidation as they contain. And vegans can't figure out why their starch based diets often leave them feeling fatigued. The answer to fatigue is eat monosacharrides-fruit. In the absense of excessive dietary fat, protein, or hard to digest polysacharrides, raw fruit almost immediately gets taken up by the intestinal villa and transported to the cells for oxidation and energy release-which is why during races marathoners always eat oranges and dates, and you never see them eating protein powders or potatoes or nuts.

 

There is an easy test, that works in most cases, to see if a food will make you healthy and energetic: can you eat and enjoy it raw? Can you enjoy eating a raw potatoe? Raw rice grains? Raw kidney beans? No, and this inability to eat these so-called foods is your bodies way of telling you they are not suitable for your digestive system. Instead of "fooling" your body by attempting to make these substances food by cooking them, just accept our natural design and eat the foods we are designed for: fruit, tender non-starchy veggies, and nuts and seeds; we are frugivores and if you eat like one, you will have unprecedented energy and vitality.

[DV]

You have now entered...........

[offense74]

I have an Msc in Computing science. That part of my education didn't give me much of critical thinking. Today education in unis factories for future producers of stuff. The teachers tells you stuff, you remember it and and then you write it down on the exam. I'm still working at the uni and can tell you that I've met professors who doesn't get it.

 

It is apparent from your answers that you haven't critically analyzed the data that you derive your knowledge from.

[beforewisdom]

No offense guys. Claiming to know more about human biology, physiology, etc than someone who went to nursing school by virtue of having read raw food diet books will not give you an aura of credibility. Whether or not your right or wrong.

[DaN]

There is a point, when talking about energy levels & lifespan, & its relation to diet, that you have to draw the line.Some meat eaters have lived over a hundred years.Some vegans die from cancer when they are 40.Swap the 2 around and the statement is still correct.Some meat eaters are full of energy & have loads of muscle.While some vegans are low on energy & are really skinny.Swap the 2 around and the statement is still correct.

 

Energy levels, health, body size, fitness & lifespan have so many other factors that do not derive from diet:

 

Genetics, daily habits, activity levels, stress levels, personality, air quality, water quality, happiness levels, the list is endless.

 

My point is, as long as we make the decision to not eat meat, or overly processed foods, or dairy products, & we maintain good exercise based fitness, we are all going to be as healthy as our body & environment will allow.What order we eat foods, and what foods we combine, and whether we cook foods or not, comes across as frankly quite silly.

 

But to those of you who it does matter to, it is interesting to read your various "proofs" & "evidence"

 

As usual a certain streak of people on here resort to mock, sarcasm or offensive posts, which really just shows immaturity, rather than intellectual superiority.If you cannot communicate politely, its best not to communicate at all, in my opinion.

[DV]

As usual a certain streak of people on here resort to mock, sarcasm or offensive posts, which really just shows immaturity, rather than intellectual superiority.If you cannot communicate politely, its best not to communicate at all, in my opinion.

 

Well, now that DaN has spoken, I feel put in my place. I had to delete the mocking, offensive and sarcastic replies that came to mind. Thank goodness maturity won this time!

[beforewisdom]

I don't think anyone who has sat down to plan out their goals has ever listed saving this web site from being overrun by nutritional cultism as a priority in their life. Something when they are 98 and looking back on their life, they are glad they spent weeks/months (cumulative) of their one time on Earth doing.

 

Waves of these people have come here and waves of these people have gone. This cycle is going to keep repeating itself.

 

Better to move on to something where you get a good return on your investment in time.

[DV]

C'mon, BeforeWisdom. It's like a train wreck - you have to stop the car and look! Even you can't take your own advice on this one.

 

But you're correct that time spent debating nutrition on this forum might be better spent doing something else. However, some of these discussions lead to further research on certain topics (at least for me), which can lead to further knowledge. I've given knowledge and I've received on this forum. And sometimes I receive a whole lot of laughs, usually in the nutrition section.

[DaN]

Well, now that DaN has spoken, I feel put in my place. I had to delete the mocking, offensive and sarcastic replies that came to mind. Thank goodness maturity won this time!

 

Your intellectual skills & use of sarcasm impress me greatly

 

[Im Your Man]

What order we eat foods, and what foods we combine, and whether we cook foods or not, comes across as frankly quite silly.

 

But to those of you who it does matter to, it is interesting to read your various "proofs" & "evidence"

That's the thing, people are not even interested in understanding the evidence of optimum nutrition, because they think it doesn't exist ! Or that all different diets are optimum. Like a steak is the samething than a fruit in the body, or that eating a potato and then a steak with 3 hours interval is the samething than eating them at the same meal. Like DV said, welcome to the twilight zone.

 

Here's the problem, resulting in ignorance and death of the nations: when it comes to proper food combining, doctors and people listening to doctors deny the evidence of physiology and biology, because they are pure science of life, not some experiments in labs. People will trust artificial vitamins though, when it comes to know the truth and health, people will ask the chemist to prepare a pill containing the wealth of health and longevity, instead of asking the Nature. People believe McDonalds when they say that they offer nutritive, balanced and complete meals, and they think this is the Truth.

 

There are already lots of evidence mentioned in the post of food combining which I provided a link. Go read it, and continue to ignore the facts, but don't say there are no facts.

 

DV said :

Asking if there's scientific proof that our digestive tracts can handle a combination of protein/carbs/fat is like asking if there's scientific proof that we can breathe a mixture of oxygen/carbon dioxide/nitrogen. Why does science need to "prove" something that happens every time we eat or breathe?

 

When doctors think that breathing and digesting are the samething...Again, like she said herself : welcome to twilight zone. I wouldn't be one of the billions that go see doctors when they have problems.

[RawVgn]

Some of us don't need to rely on mere theory; we've put the evidence to the test in our own lives and have direct experience to judge from also. Within several days of going low-fat raw, because of the incredible energy and strength and health improvements I experienced, I KNEW I would never eat cooked food, vegan or otherwise, again! If you hang out in raw circles, you will hear first hand accounts from many people who healed chronic diseases they suffered from, often for decades, which the medical establishment could do nothing. You can TALK until your blue in the face, but I KNOW what happened to me- and I've heard plenty of other people recount similiar experiences. I consider becoming raw to be one of the top five most amazing experiences of my half-century long life. When some of you eventually develop degenerative diseases, I hope you will remember this conversation.

 

Blessings

[DaN]

There are already lots of evidence mentioned in the post of food combining which I provided a link. Go read it, and continue to ignore the facts, but don't say there are no facts.

 

Not sure if this is aimed at me, but if so, dude, I never ignore facts.I am not saying food combining is not real, I am just saying it is of minimal interest to me at the moment.

 

It is interesting to hear the research coming from those of you who are claiming raw or food combining is better & intersting to hear those who deny it.I personally just dont have the time or inclination to look into this matter myself, I have plenty of other things which are more important to me to be spending my time on.

 

I am happy at the moment that I am eating a very healthy vegan diet, full of whole foods, vegetables & fruits, but I love that some of you are taking the time to go further than that.It could benefit all of us, or not.Only time & evidence will tell.

 

[DV]

We should realize that strong belief in something can make it true for certain people (or it can be complete coincidence). The placebo effect is very strong for some individuals and there are studies which show that the effect is statistically relevant. Some people can also be hypnotized while others cannot.

 

So, if an individual truly believes that his or her diet/god/politics/etc are the best/healthiest/most effective then that just might be true - for that individual.

 

When it comes to diet, humans are notorious for lying (consciously or subconciously) about what they ingest. Studies done with people today are bound to have a large margin of error since you cannot observe someone 24/7 and no one will write down what they eat for years on end. There are too few raw foodists who stick to the diet long enough to even get an adequate sized study group. Therefore, we'll never have any absolute scientific proof of whether or not a whole foods vegan diet is superior to a raw diet.

 

But if personal observation is just as good as the scientific process, here goes. An associate of mine went raw and got really slender and somewhat pale. He went back to eating a wider assortment of cooked and raw foods, started taking supplements again. While he touted the health aspects, tremendous energy, etc of raw foodism when he first converted, he now says that it didn't continue for long. Today, he's more muscular and has more energy than when he was raw - and he looks a lot better. (And yes he did "detoxify" long enough and have high colonics and take spirulina and sprout his nuts and all that - he bought into the whole package like a reborn christian). It's all in belief and perception. Anorexics think they look fat. Raw foodists believe that heated foods are toxic. Others believe optimal health can be found eating according to their blood type. They are all correct if they believe it strongly enough. At least for a time. Or until their belief falters. Or until another truth reveals itself.

[beforewisdom]

We should realize that strong belief in something can make it true for certain people (or it can be complete coincidence). The placebo effect is very strong for some individuals and there are studies which show that the effect is statistically relevant. Some people can also be hypnotized while others cannot.

 

That is one possibility. There are other possibilities. The bottom line is the fact that somebody feels better is not proof that the reason they think they feel better is true. Something else could be making them feel better.

 

That is why, over time, people looked for ways of testing reasons. Science and large double blind clinical trials eventually developed to that end.

 

If I went on a raw food diet, lost weight, felt better, and has some conditions clear up alternative explanations that do not conflict with medical science for why those things happened do exist. Since those reasons agree with hundreds of years of research, studying and learning it makes more sense to to "guess" that those reasons are it.

 

For example, I go on a raw vegan diet, lose weight & feel better because raw vegan diets tend to be higher in produce

 

- which means I am likely getting fewer calories, which explains my weight loss

 

- which means I am getting more water, most people are under hydrated so I feel better

 

- which means I am eating bulk, which means I have less room for junk. Less junk in means more energy out

 

- which means I am ingesting more vitamins and minerals, so I feel better

 

All down to Earth reasons. No magic enzymes or food combining theories need apply

[Im Your Man]

There are already lots of evidence mentioned in the post of food combining which I provided a link. Go read it, and continue to ignore the facts, but don't say there are no facts.

 

Not sure if this is aimed at me, but if so, dude, I never ignore facts.I am not saying food combining is not real, I am just saying it is of minimal interest to me at the moment.

 

It is interesting to hear the research coming from those of you who are claiming raw or food combining is better & intersting to hear those who deny it.I personally just dont have the time or inclination to look into this matter myself, I have plenty of other things which are more important to me to be spending my time on.

 

I am happy at the moment that I am eating a very healthy vegan diet, full of whole foods, vegetables & fruits, but I love that some of you are taking the time to go further than that.It could benefit all of us, or not.Only time & evidence will tell.

 

Then if it ain't interesting to you and you don't have the time, why do you keep reading all this and reply to it ? btw, why do you think it was aimed to you??

[Im Your Man]

 

For example, I go on a raw vegan diet, lose weight & feel better because raw vegan diets tend to be higher in produce

 

- which means I am likely getting fewer calories, which explains my weight loss

 

- which means I am getting more water, most people are under hydrated so I feel better

 

- which means I am eating bulk, which means I have less room for junk. Less junk in means more energy out

 

- which means I am ingesting more vitamins and minerals, so I feel better

 

you forgot :

 

-when I combine my food properly, I feel even better

 

lol

 

We should realize that strong belief in something can make it true for certain people (or it can be complete coincidence). The placebo effect is very strong for some individuals and there are studies which show that the effect is statistically relevant. Some people can also be hypnotized while others cannot.

 

You're not discovering the placebo effect, everybody knows it works most of the time.

 

You should be aware that the Hygienist system don't limits itself to nutrition, but encompass all health problems. Positive emotions and energy, are as important as natural foods, sun, rest, fresh air, pure water, etc... "a healthy mind in a healthy body". It is almost certain that someone stressed and with a mind disturbed by negative and destructive thoughts will not find health and happiness. If you don't believe that fruits and veggies are good for your body, you may be right. "to be fit you must believe it"

 

But nutrition and the body are important too. You can't thrive on candies and soft drinks.

[DaN]

Then if it ain't interesting to you and you don't have the time, why do you keep reading all this and reply to it ? btw, why do you think it was aimed to you??

 

Dude, thats unnecesarily defensive of you! If you read my post I said:

 

but I love that some of you are taking the time to go further than that.

 

See? You should pay more attention to what I write buddy, I was giving you a compliment! I like the fact that you & others spend your time looking into the raw/food combining field of research.It could help us all.I dont have the time to do it myself, but can still show an interest in your results cant I??

 

For example, I spend alot of time researching the ancient mythology & religion of pre-dynastic egypt.I have spent years accumulating knowledge of this.You may not have the time or inclination to look into this narrow field of research yourself, but still might be interested in what I have to say about it!

 

[Im Your Man]

Then if it ain't interesting to you and you don't have the time, why do you keep reading all this and reply to it ? btw, why do you think it was aimed to you??

 

Dude, thats unnecesarily defensive of you! If you read my post I said:

 

but I love that some of you are taking the time to go further than that.

 

See? You should pay more attention to what I write buddy, I was giving you a compliment! I like the fact that you & others spend your time looking into the raw/food combining field of research.It could help us all.I dont have the time to do it myself, but can still show an interest in your results cant I??

 

For example, I spend alot of time researching the ancient mythology & religion of pre-dynastic egypt.I have spent years accumulating knowledge of this.You may not have the time or inclination to look into this narrow field of research yourself, but still might be interested in what I have to say about it!

 

yeah sorry man, I misread the first time, I thought you were saying that you're not even interested in reading the posts, so I was wondering why you read them. Now that I read your post a second time, I understand that you don't have time and not enough interested to read complete books on the subject and do research. That's ok, we can't learn about everything deeply, at least not in the first years of life, and a whole life is not enough, there's so many fascinating stuff to discover.

[DaN]

No worries man, I probably could have worded my post a little better.

 

As I have said, your idea about food combining has tickled my interest.One thing about eating protein with greeens & carb foods separately, have I understood this correctly?

 

At the moment for lunch I am eating new potatoes with mixed beans, which is carbs (potatoes) & protein (beans)

 

Should I separate them?

 

Is there evidence to support eating carbs & protein separately? I have heard this idea of separating them in body building circles, & on a program I watched about one of the English UFC fighters, who ate his carbs separate from his proteins.

[Im Your Man]

No worries man, I probably could have worded my post a little better.

 

As I have said, your idea about food combining has tickled my interest.One thing about eating protein with greeens & carb foods separately, have I understood this correctly?

 

At the moment for lunch I am eating new potatoes with mixed beans, which is carbs (potatoes) & protein (beans)

 

Should I separate them?

 

Is there evidence to support eating carbs & protein separately? I have heard this idea of separating them in body building circles, & on a program I watched about one of the English UFC fighters, who ate his carbs separate from his proteins.

separating carbs from proteins is the most important, but there are other rules, like separating fats and proteins. Fruits must be eaten alone (and desserts, anything with simple sugars). Mid-sweet with acid fruits or with sweet fruits. Don't mix acid with sweet ones. Greens go with everything except fruits and simple sugars. So the meals are : greens with proteins, or greens with carbs (rice, potatoes, carrots, etc), or greens with fats and carbs. All the simple rules are there :Food combinng explained. .

 

One thing is sure is that following these principles can't do any bad, and it only require an effort in the beginning, just like for any other transition or big change in life.

 

That MMA fighter and bodybuilders you're talking about are smart.

When someone wants energy (carbs, ideally fruits), it is obvious that the best thing to do is to eat these alone, to receive the energy faster; and with fruits, almost instantly. Proteins require 4 hours of digestion.

And it is obvious that if you want proteins to hit the muscles with amino acids as fast as possible, then eat proteins, not carbs with proteins.

 

The nutritionnists say that proteins must be eaten along with some carb, to ensure that carbs are used as energy and that proteins are used as building blocks. That is true. And that is why it is important to eat fruits before and after working out. First to provide energy, and then to restore energy. So you can eat some fruits after workout, wait 30-60 minutes, then eat proteins with greens full of micronutrients that will promote the absorption of proteins and these greens contains also small amounts of perfect quality amino acids. Sugar or carbs will have no benefits to proteins.

 

All animals eat frequent meals and when we eat 3 meals per day, and many bodybuilders eat up to 6 or 8 meals, there's no reason to have everything at each meal. So the dieticians advice to have everything at each meal because the modern man who work 12 hours per day don't have time to have a carb meal and a protein meal, and the only meal he has he eat it on the go, watching his watch and doing something else at the same time. Combining everything at once can be useful if you can't have more than just one meal per day or 1 meal every 2 or 3 days, lol. But even in this case, it is not a good thing to do, because when you don't eat for 1, 2 or 3 days, the digestive system is on rest and out of work and is not ready or able to digest a big meal with bad combinations of foods, and will only digest properly some greens, or maybe digestible fruits.

 

It is the duty of someone to make the obvious change in his life and to modify the way he nourrish himself, not his digestive system to try to adapt and to suffer.

[DaN]

I have recently become intolerant to soya, which I had in a fruit smoothie in the morning & after work.

 

it has affected my gains since I stopped having the 2 shakes a day, so i need a replacement.

 

But on your rules fruit should not be consumed with protein anyway, so what alternative could there be?

 

Maybe have a smoothie first, then wait & have the protein an hour later?

[DV]

It is IMPOSSIBLE to eat protein alone, fat alone, carbs alone - unless you are eating MANMADE isolates such as processed grains, sugar, oils or protein isolates!!! Even bananas contain fat and protein, albeit small amounts, along with carbs. Our GI tracts have developed over tens of thousands of years (unless you're a believer in 'intelligent' design, hah) to process any mix of macronutrients. You stomach is highly acidic and your small intestine is basic (alkaline). Food gets digested and absorbed at different points in the GI tract, depending on the composition of the food. You do not need to worry about the acid/base content of the food you put in your mouth as your GI tract is "smart" enough to take the guess work out of it for you. Now, if I were trying to promote a book or website I might tell you something different. Reality, however, is free of charge.

 

If you study human physiology, then study the components of different foods - you will come to logical conclusions. I certainly don't expect that to happen, however.

 

So, if you want to believe in food combining (or food non-combining? I can't keep up with the contradictions anymore), then do so. Belief is a powerful thing. But there is little logic, physiology or science behind the theory.