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When your freedoms impinge on mine.

Vegan Joe

By Vegan Joe,
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SyrLinus Newbie

SyrLinus

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Interesting video. I wonder what it would have been like if you change gay to interracial. Judges are called in not frivolously to address constitutional issues but when it potentially violates a right, which I'd consider pretty major. Reality is that society may think it's ok with something -- for the longest time it was ok to be a slave owner, beat slaves and deny African Americans rights such as marriage, etc. and it was ok with society at large -- but that doesn't mean it's right.

 

As for the lawsuits, I find the US is overabundant in the use of lawsuits. I don't fault someone who won't participate in something because of religious choice. I'd respect that and find someone who is comfortable with it. It doesn't make sense to me to force someone who doesn't like it to participate. The event of marriage is meant to celebrate the lives of two people moving forward as one and going to a church that doesn't support gay marriage doesn't make any sense to me.

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DaN Newbie

DaN

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Jaleel wrote:

 

they can home school or send their kids to a religious private school where they won't be subjected to it.

 

Thats a good point.If you choose to let the state teach your children, then your children will learn stuff maybe you dont want them to, thats just basic logic.My government made me learn the german language, and latin for years.It was a complete waste of time.But I didnt have a choice, nor did my parents.If you really are concerned with what stuff your kids are taught, do home teaching.

 

> My view on marriage is that it is a ceremony created by christianity.

 

It is a religious cermony, with vicar, hymns and all that stuff.Surely then its the churches decision as to whom they wish to marry? I think its wrong for them to deny gay marriages, but its still their decision isnt it?

 

As I am not gay I have not put much thought into it, so please excuse me if I have offended anyones view on this.

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RAINRA Newbie

RAINRA

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I understand what Vegan Joe is trying to say... or so I think... Basically he is not a hater towards gays he just does not want his sacred term "marriage" to be used for anything else but calling a woman and a man who are together. End of story!

 

Now see it comes off a bit confusing to people because when people want to be included into a something such as marriage and they are not allowed then it feels like it is an exclusive club. Leaving someone out seems not inclusive and segregating people into classes where you are this type so you go over their you are this type you go over here and so on. We all want to live in this planet happily not hurting one another. Part of being Vegan is having compassion for people and animals and so as I was told. I think that many here would agree that we are accepting to everyone as long as they don't cause harm or affect another person. Most of us would include people if we knew it would make them happy to be part of a good community. What I mean to say is that most of us will bend no matter what it means. We would get along better. We appreciate people how ever they are. I consider people to be equal 100% in human rights. Even if we talk about differences no one person is the same... I don't care if how you are, your still human and you have the same rights as everyone else. I will include you under the same laws and same freedoms.

 

Vegan Joe I respect you for being Vegan. I think even if your views are more conservative than mine I respect that you do hold your veganaism. I will accept your opinion. As most I will not agree but again I have a different perspective on life and see how not allowing all freedoms including marriage can be hurtful just based on being non inclusive. I think most of you should not try to convince Vegan Joe to see it another way because it takes a differennt life experience to come to understanding. Which is why some of you would accept gay marriage. I will always accept it. If I lived in California I would be more than happy to give gay couples the right. I think it would make gays happy and that is what matters to me. I would also want Vegan Joe happy as well but I just don't believe anything is really sacred.

 

 

I went ahead and looked up "sacred": this is what it said

 

entitled to veneration or religious respect by association with divinity or divine things; holy.

now if marriage is a religious thing only then Joe would be right and the if it was according to religious law then maybe if the church kept it holy for just a man an a woman to be married then I see what he means. I am not religious nor do I think one is right nor do I think any are better than another. Since the bible is always is up to interpretation then it would still be questionable. Example how many people are super religious and then enlist in the army .... I kinda remember to read in the Bible ... I SHALL NOT KILL... whmmmm interesting how people choose to decide how they want to understand the bible. Also the other question is marriage a religious thing or a society thing where did it come from. What about other religions besides Christian based? Marriage is common in other religions as well... I filmed a Hindu wedding once... So who holds the term "marriage." Maybe it belongs to everyone...

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Richard Newbie

Richard

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I understand what Vegan Joe is trying to say... or so I think... Basically he is not a hater towards gays .

 

I interpret it differently as Joe has said:

 

1, I don't approve of gay behavior.

4, Don't teach my children (grandchildren, all my children are over 22) your life style in school.

5, Keep your private business to yourself.

 

Now, I don't know if I'd say that he "hates" gay people, but he certainly has a problem with homosexuality, beyond gay marriage, and I would refer to it as homophobia personally (in as much as, he doesn't like the idea of homosexuality, thinks there is something wrong/bad/fearful/dangerous {delete as appropriate} about it in whatever way).

 

In terms of marriage being a religious thing - if that religion says that homosexuality is wrong, then I don't know why a homosexual would want to get married under that religion. If you can get the same rights from a civil partnership or whatever, then I'd say just do that and leave the homophobic religions out of it.

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DaN Newbie

DaN

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Also the other question is marriage a religious thing or a society thing where did it come from. What about other religions besides Christian based? Marriage is common in other religions as well... I filmed a Hindu wedding once... So who holds the term "marriage." Maybe it belongs to everyone...

 

There is no question of where marriage came from.It is a christian/jewish ceremony which copied/adapted older ceremonies carried out in the middle east, mediteranean, india, & egypt.

 

Hindu weddings are similar, as are marriage ceremonies found in native american cultures (axtecs, inca etc)

 

However the ceremony we are talking about, is christian.

 

'Marriage' as you say belongs to everyone, and gay people can indeed create their own ceremony as a union of their love.But whats strange is they want a christian marriage, a religion that condemns their sexuality

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DaN Newbie

DaN

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In terms of marriage being a religious thing - if that religion says that homosexuality is wrong, then I don't know why a homosexual would want to get married under that religion. If you can get the same rights from a civil partnership or whatever, then I'd say just do that and leave the homophobic religions out of it.

 

+1

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blabbate Newbie

blabbate

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However the ceremony we are talking about, is christian.

 

'Marriage' as you say belongs to everyone, and gay people can indeed create their own ceremony as a union of their love.But whats strange is they want a christian marriage, a religion that condemns their sexuality

That is exactly wrong. At least in the U.S., which is the locus of all the stuff Joe has brought up, civil marriage and religious marriage are separate. Gays want the right to civil marriage. They have no interest in forcing churches to allow homosexual religious unions.

 

When people apply the word "sacred" to civil marriage, they are either incorrectly attributing a religious aspect to a civil institution, are using the word in a secular way, or are just terribly confused.

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blabbate Newbie

blabbate

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However the ceremony we are talking about, is christian.

 

'Marriage' as you say belongs to everyone, and gay people can indeed create their own ceremony as a union of their love.But whats strange is they want a christian marriage, a religion that condemns their sexuality

That is exactly wrong. At least in the U.S., which is the locus of all the stuff Joe has brought up, civil marriage and religious marriage are separate. Gays want the right to civil marriage. They have no interest in forcing churches to allow homosexual religious unions.

 

When people apply the word "sacred" to civil marriage, they are either incorrectly attributing a religious aspect to a civil institution, are using the word in a secular way, or are just terribly confused.

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DaN Newbie

DaN

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That is exactly wrong. At least in the U.S., which is the locus of all the stuff Joe has brought up, civil marriage and religious marriage are separate. Gays want the right to civil marriage

 

My apologies, I thought gays wanted the right to religious marriage.If they want civil marriage, of course it shoud be allowed.I am kind of amazed its not.

 

What benefits do they get by having civil marriage, out of interest?

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blabbate Newbie

blabbate

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My apologies, I thought gays wanted the right to religious marriage.If they want civil marriage, of course it shoud be allowed.I am kind of amazed its not.

Let me amend and say the gay rights movement is not about religious marriage, just civil. I'm sure there are a few people here and there who want to try to force the churches, but 99+% realize that it's pointless. Separation of church and state also protects the churches, after all.

 

I'm also amazed it's not allowed, but bear in mind that only Spain, Canada, and Norway grant exactly the same rights to same-sex and opposite-sex marriage.

What benefits do they get by having civil marriage, out of interest?

It's complicated. Married couples receive over 1,000 civil benefits, many deriving from the fact that a civil marriage makes them legally kin. Survivor benefits, visitation rights, joint taxation, sick leave, veterans benefits, adoption, immigration sponsorship, etc. It's also an internationally recognized institution. If you're legally (and heterosexually) married in the U.S., almost all other countries will recognize it.

 

Civil unions, the current substitute for marriage in several states and the solution favored by both presidential candidates, provide some, but not all, of these benefits. It differs by state, and none of them can provide benefits currently reserved only for heterosexual couples under federal law.

 

Gay marriage is legal in Massachusetts, California, and Connecticut and provides all the benefits of straight-sex marriage that, again, aren't currently reserved for heterosexual couples under federal law.

 

And finally, there's the separate-but-equal argument, that when you change the vocabulary used to discuss something, it implicitly changes the meaning.

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Vegan Joe Newbie

Vegan Joe

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and others want to ignore it. lucky for you - you get to do both.

It's sad when someone can see only one side of the story. Freedoms are freedoms. But we are not really talking about freedoms for all, and by voting No on 8 you illiminate the freedoms of some. You need to listen and reread some of what I posted because you and a few seem to be missing the big picture.

Actually don't bother. because I know you can't understand that there are 2 sides to this story.

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blabbate Newbie

blabbate

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It's sad when someone can see only one side of the story. Freedoms are freedoms. But we are not really talking about freedoms for all, and by voting No on 8 you illiminate the freedoms of some.

"Illiminate," how very Beastie Boys of you.

 

Anyway, are you going to explain what the "Yes on 8" voters have to do with forcing churches to perform gay marriages?

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